The strength of the not-so-main fighters

[Rocketman]

Was 'Piccolo' Kami back when Dabura scouted Earth the first time? Maybe that would make his energy unusable, like the Supreme Kai's (or makes Dabura think it is, since I doubt he knows of Namekian fusion).

Do you mean that Kami's status as a divine being would make his energy unusable, like Kaioshin's apparently was? If so, keep in mind that Kami only became Kami (er...that is, the child of Katattsu only became Kami) after kicking the evil that became Piccolo out of his heart. So Kami wasn't actually divine back when Piccolo was still a part of him.

Yeah, I know that. I was hesitant to say "Was Kami Kami...?" because that sounds odd.

[Kid Trunks]

Eh, Pui Pui considered 10x Earth's gravity as something rigorous that only he would be able to handle. Going by that, he'd be comparable to Saiyan saga Goku. XD

Not at all. Kid Gohan felt the difference in The Room Of Spirit and Time. And he was way beyond Saiyan Saga Goku.

But thats not even my point. Like I said, he must have been of a decent level of power for Babidi to consider using him to resurrect Buu.

[Kaboom]

Not at all. Kid Gohan felt the difference in The Room Of Spirit and Time. And he was way beyond Saiyan Saga Goku.

He "felt a difference," yeah, because he'd never done gravity training before. But it was still got used to it real quick, and it was in no way a hindrance to him. PuiPui on the other hand was convinced he was the only one who could handle such a gravity level, but was dead wrong.

I didn't really mean it in any serious way. But if Vegeta could take him out so easily and without transforming at all, then PuiPui must've been pretty comparatively weak.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I don't really think Pui-Pui's supposed "advantage" was based on his power level, though. It seemed like he thought Vegeta wouldn't be strong enough to move in 10x gravity. Babi & Dabura already know Vegeta is above him in power, so they believed his planet would slow Vegeta down a bit, and allow him to gain the upperhand.

Pui-Pui could've been around Saiyan Saga Vegeta (18,000) before the majin seal, but after is a total guess. I think he could be above 100% Freeza, but not completely.

[Kid Trunks]

Not at all. Kid Gohan felt the difference in The Room Of Spirit and Time. And he was way beyond Saiyan Saga Goku.

He "felt a difference," yeah, because he'd never done gravity training before. But it was still got used to it real quick, and it was in no way a hindrance to him. PuiPui on the other hand was convinced he was the only one who could handle such a gravity level, but was dead wrong.

I could argue against that. But I really don't want to debate this. I'll make my point, and you'll make yours. And on and on and on it'll go. It'll break my heart. And like I said, its not even my point.

I didn't really mean it in any serious way. But if Vegeta could take him out so easily and without transforming at all, then PuiPui must've been pretty comparatively weak.

OR Pui Pui was pretty strong, Vegeta's base was even stronger? Given how rapidly the characters gained strength in the past, by the time of the Buu saga I'd say Vegeta's base was pretty strong.

And yet again, I'll say this: Pui Pui must have been of a decent level of power for Babidi to consider using him to resurrect Buu.

[Onikage725]

Not at all. Kid Gohan felt the difference in The Room Of Spirit and Time. And he was way beyond Saiyan Saga Goku.

He "felt a difference," yeah, because he'd never done gravity training before. But it was still got used to it real quick, and it was in no way a hindrance to him. PuiPui on the other hand was convinced he was the only one who could handle such a gravity level, but was dead wrong.

That really just feels like inexperience to me. I say that because Pui Pui isn't the only one who thinks it will make a difference. Babidi and Dabura both think so as well. Dabura himself is confirmed to be Cell's level or above, and the two of them had already labeled Vegeta as a being who could greatly contribute to the revival of Buu. And as Kid Trunks said, he considered Pui Pui a viable asset towards generating damage to powerful fighters to bring back Buu. Pui Pui was in his favored 3- and we already know Babidi discards low-rent scrubs or assigns them menial tasks.

So I think the gravity switch was viewed by them as a favorable environmental switch, not a power level modifier. Home-field advantage. Unfortunately they didn't realize that almost every Z Senshi had undergone at least 10g training.

I didn't really mean it in any serious way. But if Vegeta could take him out so easily and without transforming at all, then PuiPui must've been pretty comparatively weak.

Noone disputes that Pui Pui was weak compared to Vegeta. The issue is how strong was Pui Pui, and by extension base Vegeta?

[Xyex]

I'm just sayng it's conjecture, and the story leaves room for both possibilities.

Oh, I know, I was just pointing out my reasons for why I think what I think.

One could offer in opposition that the power discrepancy would mean Kaioshin could have defeated Pui Pui by teleporting behind him and thumping him once upside the head. So him being afraid of such an opponent would be like Freeza planting a Saibaiman on Namek and Gohan having a shit fit.

More like Freeza freaking out about the Saiya-jins because of talk of Super Saiya-jin.

"Majin" is just Kaioshin's "Super Saiya-jin", IMO. Freeza's initial reaction to SSJ Goku was terror, before denial and arrogance took hold.

And how can we take his worry about Dabura at face value if we're going to start from a basis of "he's clueless and is to be ignored" when discussing Pui Pui?

In the case of Dabura there seems to be a history there. Like the two of them have had contact before. Possibly even fought before, though that is pure speculation. But Kaioshin definitely has some level of knowledge about Dabura's pre-Majin power.

And there's also the problem with Dabura listing the Saiya-jin as powerful fighters and Piccolo as a weakling. Obviously Piccolo was well above Freeza's level, and the Saiya-jin were in base form. So we have two options- Piccolo was supressing and Dabura can't sense for shit, or the Saiya-jin, even in base form, were kind of badass.

You were right about two options, but off on what they are.

Option 1: Everyone had their power supressed but Piccolo's was lower than that of the Saiya-jins. Not hard to fathom since he's arguably the more skilled and tactical of the lot. So he could have been at 100 and the others at 5,000 (Goku seems to like 5,000 XD). Thus Piccolo is "Weak" and the others "useful".

Option 2: The Saiya-jins have forgotten how to supress their energy and are trying to hide from Dabura and co without supressing their power in the slightest (because if they are suppressed at all then there's no arguement against option 1). Thus, either Piccolo remembered to supress his power but forgot to yell at the others for not doing so or the base Saiya-jins are now comparable to the likes of Semi-Perfect Cell (if they're strong enough to make a full powered Piccolo "weak").

Personally, considering that Option 2 requires a lot of rampant stupidity from people that aren't stupid, I opt for Option 1.

Was 'Piccolo' Kami back when Dabura scouted Earth the first time? Maybe that would make his energy unusable, like the Supreme Kai's (or makes Dabura think it is, since I doubt he knows of Namekian fusion).

Kami became Kami and King Piccolo is "born" in Age 461. Dabura inspects the Earth in Age 474.

OR Pui Pui was pretty strong, Vegeta's base was even stronger? Given how rapidly the characters gained strength in the past, by the time of the Buu saga I'd say Vegeta's base was pretty strong.

Rapidly?

Goku went from 2 to 416 in 23 years. "Several thousand years" worth of training on King Kai's then got him to 8,000.

Vegeta went from who-knows-what to 18,000 in 29 years.

Both then cheated like fuck on Namek, abused the hell out of a plot device that was subsequently discarded (and forgotten save a one-line mention from Cell that was likely incorrect anyway) and became absurdly powerful. The Zenkai abuse seemed to cease following Namek. Hell, the Zenkai's seemed to cease following Namek, otherwise Vegeta would have charged right back after the Androids upon being healed following his beating by 18 instead of moping around.

With the Saiya-jin cheat code disabled they're not going to be jumping several million points in the span of two weeks anymore. It's "back to normal" for their gains, now. Even on the way to Namek with 100g gravity and multiple Zenkai's Goku went from 8k to 90k.

The bulk of the 'cheating' achieved by the Saiya-jins following Namek was work on their SSJ powers, pushing them to the next level (with the RoSaT trips as side issues). Goku, far as we could see, never used gravity training after Namek. Vegeta used it, sure, but 10x Earth was his 'normal' so even that 450 we see him using isn't all that impressive. There's absolutely nothing, post Namek, that leads me to think they made gains anywhere near those made on Namek.

Or, to view this from another angle. Think of a base Saiya-jin That is as strong as Semi-Perfect Cell. Now, think of him as 50x stronger than that. Do you really see anything in the universe coming even remotely close to that power? And yet Goku had to transform two more times to be anywhere near even with Majin Buu.

And yet again, I'll say this: Pui Pui must have been of a decent level of power for Babidi to consider using him to resurrect Buu.

"Decent level of power" is anything over, like, 25,000 at this point. All the stronger fighters got their asses killed already.

[goodguy777]

To be fair, I've entertained the notion of Buu-Saga bases vs Freeza (not that I fully subscribe to it, but I don't discount it) based on Kaioshin's smugness regarding Freeza and his fear of Pui Pui.

One could easily argue that Kaioshin was just being a wuss, but since things like power levels were a thing of the past there isn't really a specific answer within story canon. Conjecture either way, but there is a case for both.

Yeah, in the latter camp there. Kaioshin was a clueless idiot who couldn't tell how powerful an SSJ2 10 feet from his face was and he was terrified of anything "Majin". The only real indication of his own power was his worry over Dabura's power but we don't know how much power Dabura had pre-Majin charm so that's not any help. (Though I really can't see either of them being weaker than Semi-Perfect Cell.)

Goku's the only one I see not needing SSJ to take even 100% Freeza. Kaioken x10 would be more than ample for that.

1.)SSJ2 Gohan:

*Kaiohshin doesn't need to be terrified over SSJ2 Gohan's power because Gohan is not an enemy.

*Kaiohshin was not a clueless idiot who couldn't tell how powerful SSJ2 Gohan because Kaiohshin stated that he is not sure if he can hold SSJ2 Gohan's power.

2.)Freeza:

* Each Kaiohshins can beat Freeza with a single blow

3.)Pui-Pui:

*Being one of the best chosen fighters of Babidi, he can be a threat for Kaiohshin.

4.)Supopo Bitch, Jam and the others:

*Not one of the best chosen fighters of Babidi or pawns in Babidi's game.

5.)Conclusion:

Pui-Pui >> Freeza 100%

[Kid Trunks]

No disrespect, but like I said, I don't want to argue/debate this, it'll break my heart.

"Decent level of power" is anything over, like, 25,000 at this point. All the stronger fighters got their asses killed already.

Please. Lets not nit pick. When I said "decent" I meant...I dunno, a few million or something. Maybe more, I'm not sure.

Look, can you discount this statement: Pui Pui must have been of a "decent" level of power for Babidi to consider using him to resurrect Buu.

[Rocketman]

Kami became Kami and King Piccolo is "born" in Age 461. Dabura inspects the Earth in Age 474.

So it's possible that Dabura takes out Piccolo because he thinks he's Kami, and thus his energy isn't usable, and not because the Saiyans are stronger than him?

[goodguy777]

No disrespect, but like I said, I don't want to argue/debate this, it'll break my heart.

"Decent level of power" is anything over, like, 25,000 at this point. All the stronger fighters got their asses killed already.

Please. Lets not nit pick. When I said "decent" I meant...I dunno, a few million or something. Maybe more, I'm not sure.

Look, can you discount this statement: Pui Pui must have been of a "decent" level of power for Babidi to consider using him to resurrect Buu.

Yes, Pui Pui is beyond freeza's power.

[Xyex]

Look, can you discount this statement: Pui Pui must have been of a "decent" level of power for Babidi to consider using him to resurrect Buu.

My point was Pui Pui doesn't even need to be near, say, 2 million, post Majin charm, for him to easily achieve what Babidi wants him to. And 2 million is a level Goku and co reached before the Androids came. And a level that base Vegeta could blast away with ease come the Buu saga.

So it's possible that Dabura takes out Piccolo because he thinks he's Kami, and thus his energy isn't usable, and not because the Saiyans are stronger than him?

Possible, I suppose, depending on the phrasing of what he said. Which I don't know off hand, or have handy.

[Kid Trunks]

Look, can you discount this statement: Pui Pui must have been of a "decent" level of power for Babidi to consider using him to resurrect Buu.

My point was Pui Pui doesn't even need to be near, say, 2 million, post Majin charm, for him to easily achieve what Babidi wants him to. And 2 million is a level Goku and co reached before the Androids came. And a level that base Vegeta could blast away with ease come the Buu saga.

So you think a power of 20-30,000 would be enough for Pui Pui go give out sufficient damage to ressurect Buu? Not likely. They'd be waiting forever at that rate.

Also, it'd be weird and nonsensical for Babidi to keep such a low level fighter alongside Dabura and Yakon.

[Kaboom]

So you think a power of 20-30,000 would be enough for Pui Pui go give out sufficient damage to ressurect Buu? Not likely. They'd be waiting forever at that rate.

Babidi kind of expected it to take a long time. He was shocked when a single battle produced enough to fill the rest of the tank.

Don't forget that most people in the universe top out at a couple thousand.

[Kid Trunks]

I know. But still. But if Gohan SSJ2 could only fill it half way, then Pui Pui would take forever trying to get enough damage to resurrect Buu.

[mAcChaos]

Speaking of that, that does give us a good measuring stick to ascertain Buu's power.

Gohan was supposed to be about as strong as Cell, but weaker because he slacked off. His power filled up half of Buu's gauge.

So Majin Buu must be around twice as strong as Perfect Cell.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Possible, I suppose, depending on the phrasing of what he said. Which I don't know off hand, or have handy.

Dabra: "They think they're hidden...I count seven in all. We can't use energy from the Lord or Kibito, but three of them have great potential."

I'm sure the original text has Dabura referring to their "great energy", and not potential.

[SSj_Rambo]

Speaking of that, that does give us a good measuring stick to ascertain Buu's power.

Gohan was supposed to be about as strong as Cell, but weaker because he slacked off. His power filled up half of Buu's gauge.

So Majin Buu must be around twice as strong as Perfect Cell.

I have to disagree with that. Cell was about as strong as an extremely well trained and in shape SSj2. Majin Buu was about as strong as an adult SSj3 that was in even better shape than Gohan had been for the Cell games, and I doubt that SSj3 is only twice as strong as it's previous SSj form.

It's been proven in every SSj transformation that the new level of power is many, many times greater than the power of the previous form, so twice Gohans power cannot equal Buu's power since Buu's power pretty much equalled SSj2 Goku.

Though your theory of the amount of energy that was needed to release Buu matched how powerful Buu was is interesting, but obviously doesn't work. You could just assume that the amount of energy needed to release Buu was able to release him because it was working with the power that was already in Majin Buu. In other words the power of [Majin Buu + x2 the power of SSj2 Gohan = enough energy to release Buu] as apposed to your theory of [2 x SSj2 Gohan's energy = enough energy to release Buu and therefore the amount of energy/strength that Buu has].

[Onikage725]

Oh, I know, I was just pointing out my reasons for why I think what I think.

Granted, and I'm more playing devil's advocate than actually arguing with you.

"Majin" is just Kaioshin's "Super Saiya-jin", IMO. Freeza's initial reaction to SSJ Goku was terror, before denial and arrogance took hold.

I do have to say this is a poor example. Freeza never refused to fight a Saiya-jin on the grounds of fear. When he did become afraid of a Super Saiya-jin, it was in the face of an opponent who was clearly his superior (and demonstrated such right away).

I'm not saying your idea about Kaioshin is improbable, just that those two scenarios are intrinsically different.

Option 1: Everyone had their power supressed but Piccolo's was lower than that of the Saiya-jins. Not hard to fathom since he's arguably the more skilled and tactical of the lot. So he could have been at 100 and the others at 5,000 (Goku seems to like 5,000 XD). Thus Piccolo is "Weak" and the others "useful".

I seriously doubt something like a 5,000 would have been viewed as useful. That's Nappa-range, peanuts compared to the task of reviving Buu. Babidi would have been better off ordering Dabura to punch himself in the face (or beat on Yakon or something).

Option 2: The Saiya-jins have forgotten how to supress their energy and are trying to hide from Dabura and co without supressing their power in the slightest (because if they are suppressed at all then there's no argument against option 1). Thus, either Piccolo remembered to supress his power but forgot to yell at the others for not doing so or the base Saiya-jins are now comparable to the likes of Semi-Perfect Cell (if they're strong enough to make a full powered Piccolo "weak").

I do find it very unlikely that they would forget how to supress. They were actively trying to hide, and ki supression is kind of their schtick in the series.

Heh, you know... not making a call on Toriyama, but I firmly believe Toei believed they were that strong at base. Look at Buu Saga filler and all of GT, where characters who should have been going SSJ... weren't. Gohan vs Dabura at first, Vegetto against Ultimate Buu, Vegeta against Kid Buu. Looking at GT, the one that ticked me off the most was Trunks against Ii-Shenron.

"Decent level of power" is anything over, like, 25,000 at this point. All the stronger fighters got their asses killed already.

That's from "our" perspective. I assume Babidi has a broader view, seeing as how Kaioshin says he's usually rolling with tough guards, and he has guys like Dabura and Yakon on his roster (Pui Pui's strength being up for debate at the moment).

Or to put it another way, the whole Cell Saga was based on earth-based mad science. From our view of the galaxy, it was purged of major evil between Vegeta's intergalactic slaughter of Freeza's remnants and Trunks' actions on Earth. Yet Dabura was out there the whole time, and he made Freeza look like a girlscout.

So it's possible that Dabura takes out Piccolo because he thinks he's Kami, and thus his energy isn't usable, and not because the Saiyans are stronger than him?

I doubt that. Piccolo the younger doesn't look like his father/s, not in the way he resembled Nail. Also, from a ki-sensing standpoint, we know from his fight with Cell that he now had a new signature. I would assume that if he didn't "feel" like Piccolo, he wouldn't "feel" like Kami either. And he wasn't pure and was no longer holder of the title of Kami, so I don't think he should have felt "divine."

[Rocketman]

Heh, you know... not making a call on Toriyama, but I firmly believe Toei believed they were that strong at base. Look at Buu Saga filler and all of GT, where characters who should have been going SSJ... weren't. Gohan vs Dabura at first, Vegetto against Ultimate Buu, Vegeta against Kid Buu. Looking at GT, the one that ticked me off the most was Trunks against Ii-Shenron.

Vegeta did fight Kid Buu in base some in the manga.