The strength of the not-so-main fighters

[Kid Trunks]

That wasn't base Gohan, that was Ultimate Gohan. Very large difference.

That's debatable. Assuming that the movie takes everyone from a certain timeframe but screws with where they ought to be, Gohan should still be on Kaioshinkai and not yet powered up. He also didn't really act like he was, as opposed to the series and movie 13 where he gets SSJ-like in combat. I know his fight with Freeza would only loosely count as "combat," but you get my meaning. I kind of see 12 and 13 (as far as Gohan is concerned) it like movie 8 to movie 9- close time frames, and everyone else is of fairly consistent power, but Gohan hasn't upgraded until the latter film.

Also, Gohan has the "open eyes". If he were Ultimate, he'd have the "close eyes" like a SSJ.

[goodguy777]

Er...East Kaioshin and Kibito can't sense power levels. It's been shown many times, he was just guessing that since Pui Pui was chosen by Babidi, he was strong as hell, but he wasn't. Freeza is way stronger than Pui Pui. There's really no debate there...

He sucks at sensing chi, but he can still sense it to an extent. If Pui-Pui was around 100,000 only, it would be utterly stupid for him to feel they need to work together to win the battle.

It would also be utterly stupid for him to be able to sense ki, have sensed Gohan's SSJ2 power just a few minutes earlier, and then be terrified of someone Vegeta can destroy in base without even trying.

I think, at best, he has a 'minimum level' of power that he can't sense below. Somewhere between Majin Buu and Super Buu. But more than likely he just can't sense actual levels at all and can only sense presences.

Volume 37, chi sensing of Kibito and Kaiohshin:

1.)Kibito's comment on SSJ2 Gohan:

"I don't believe how strong he is! You wouldn't think he's a mortal.



2.) Kaiohshin's comment on SSJ2 Gohan:

He's stronger than I expected. I'm not sure if I can contain or hold that power.



Kaiohshin:

Freeza = one hit kill

Pui-Pui = a threat

Read Volume 37 please.

[temujin]

I don't know if this helps,but french daizenshuu 7 says that kaiohshin is stronger than Piccolo.
pag 49 Higashi no kaioshin
Surpasses in power super namek piccolo.

Kibito Page 53
Kibito is powerfull and
he would be tough to beat even for ssj gohan.
Maybe herms can help us here.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I never knew Shin was stronger then Piccolo. I know Piccolo had said: "He has the chi of a higher being!" when Goku asked him was it that bad.

That's odd.

[temujin]

I never knew Shin was stronger then Piccolo. I know Piccolo had said: "He has the chi of a higher being!" when Goku asked him was it that bad.

That's odd.

Really can you post the scan.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Sorry. I don't have a scanner. The text might just be different from the original, so that's probably why it's different.

[temujin]

Sorry. I don't have a scanner. The text might just be different from the original, so that's probably why it's different.

Ok here is the scan from the japanese version.
http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/8331/046zp4.jpg

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Piccolo says Shin is stronger then him in that version, right? If so, then his "different order of being" quote is useless.

[mAcChaos]

He wouldn't forfeit just because someone was stronger than him, though.

[temujin]

He wouldn't forfeit just because someone was stronger than him, though.

But if kaioshin was a lot stronger.
Why not?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Piccolo did seem to have a lot of respect for Shin, so I'm sure it was out of respect.

[mAcChaos]

He wouldn't forfeit just because someone was stronger than him, though.

But if kaioshin was a lot stronger.
Why not?

Piccolo's not the kind to give up just because someone is stronger. He values the honor of the fight.

[Xyex]

Er...East Kaioshin and Kibito can't sense power levels. It's been shown many times, he was just guessing that since Pui Pui was chosen by Babidi, he was strong as hell, but he wasn't. Freeza is way stronger than Pui Pui. There's really no debate there...

He sucks at sensing chi, but he can still sense it to an extent. If Pui-Pui was around 100,000 only, it would be utterly stupid for him to feel they need to work together to win the battle.

It would also be utterly stupid for him to be able to sense ki, have sensed Gohan's SSJ2 power just a few minutes earlier, and then be terrified of someone Vegeta can destroy in base without even trying.

I think, at best, he has a 'minimum level' of power that he can't sense below. Somewhere between Majin Buu and Super Buu. But more than likely he just can't sense actual levels at all and can only sense presences.

Volume 37, chi sensing of Kibito and Kaiohshin:

1.)Kibito's comment on SSJ2 Gohan:

"I don't believe how strong he is! You wouldn't think he's a mortal.



2.) Kaiohshin's comment on SSJ2 Gohan:

He's stronger than I expected. I'm not sure if I can contain or hold that power.



Kaiohshin:

Freeza = one hit kill

Pui-Pui = a threat

Read Volume 37 please.

Use your brain, please.

SSJ2 Gohan = Stronger than Base Vegeta.
Pui Pui = Weaker than Base Vegeta.
Kaioshin = Horrible at sensing power.

[goodguy777]

Er...East Kaioshin and Kibito can't sense power levels. It's been shown many times, he was just guessing that since Pui Pui was chosen by Babidi, he was strong as hell, but he wasn't. Freeza is way stronger than Pui Pui. There's really no debate there...

It would also be utterly stupid for him to be able to sense ki, have sensed Gohan's SSJ2 power just a few minutes earlier, and then be terrified of someone Vegeta can destroy in base without even trying.

I think, at best, he has a 'minimum level' of power that he can't sense below. Somewhere between Majin Buu and Super Buu. But more than likely he just can't sense actual levels at all and can only sense presences.

Volume 37, chi sensing of Kibito and Kaiohshin:

1.)Kibito's comment on SSJ2 Gohan:

"I don't believe how strong he is! You wouldn't think he's a mortal.



2.) Kaiohshin's comment on SSJ2 Gohan:

He's stronger than I expected. I'm not sure if I can contain or hold that power.



Kaiohshin:

Freeza = one hit kill

Pui-Pui = a threat

Read Volume 37 please.

Use your brain, please.

SSJ2 Gohan = Stronger than Base Vegeta.
Pui Pui = Weaker than Base Vegeta.
Kaioshin = Horrible at sensing power.

Learn to read please, prove me that Kaiohshin is horrible at sensing power. Please read volume 37.

Kaiohshin's comment on SSJ2 Gohan:

He's stronger than I expected. I'm not sure if I can contain or hold that power.

Kaiohshin didn't underestimate SSJ2 Gohan's power, read above. Before the appearance of Pui-pui, Gohan is the only z-senshi that releases his true power. At first, Kaiohshin is clueless on Goku and Vegeta's true power because they didn't release it unlike Gohan. The point is "Pui-Pui is a threat and Freeza was not."

[Onikage725]

Guys, not to be all faux-mod or anything, but let's keep it civil. This started as a hypothetical debate. If it's causing tempers to rise, maybe it's best to agree to disagree.

[Xyex]

That's debatable. Assuming that the movie takes everyone from a certain timeframe but screws with where they ought to be, Gohan should still be on Kaioshinkai and not yet powered up. He also didn't really act like he was, as opposed to the series and movie 13 where he gets SSJ-like in combat. I know his fight with Freeza would only loosely count as "combat," but you get my meaning. I kind of see 12 and 13 (as far as Gohan is concerned) like movie 8 to movie 9- close time frames, and everyone else is of fairly consistent power, but Gohan hasn't upgraded until the latter film.

The way I see it is the movie's set in a universe where Ultimate Gohan oblitereated Super Buu. And either everyone Buu killed was revived (inadvertantly leaving Vegeta dead) or Buu simply didn't do the Human Extinction Attack in that universe~

Learn to read please, prove me that Kaiohshin is horrible at sensing power.

Seriously? I mean, fucking hell, I just DID prove to you that he sucks at it. You just fricken quoted it, for crying out loud. I'll dumb it down and explain it to you as simple as possible so that you'll have a chance to understand it.

Kaioshin bares witness to, as you yourself just said, Gohan's full power. Then, a little later, he freaks out over Pui Pui and says that they'll have to take him together. What does this imply? This implies that, if he can sense power with an accurcy, that Pui Pui is more powerful than SSJ2 Gohan who's full power he just witnessed.

However. Base Vegeta, who is weaker than SSJ2 Gohan kills Pui Pui without trying. What, then, does this tell us? This tell us that Kaioshin can't sense powers worth shit.

Get it now?

Leran to read before you reply to something. Damn.

[goodguy777]

That's debatable. Assuming that the movie takes everyone from a certain timeframe but screws with where they ought to be, Gohan should still be on Kaioshinkai and not yet powered up. He also didn't really act like he was, as opposed to the series and movie 13 where he gets SSJ-like in combat. I know his fight with Freeza would only loosely count as "combat," but you get my meaning. I kind of see 12 and 13 (as far as Gohan is concerned) like movie 8 to movie 9- close time frames, and everyone else is of fairly consistent power, but Gohan hasn't upgraded until the latter film.

The way I see it is the movie's set in a universe where Ultimate Gohan oblitereated Super Buu. And either everyone Buu killed was revived (inadvertantly leaving Vegeta dead) or Buu simply didn't do the Human Extinction Attack in that universe~

Learn to read please, prove me that Kaiohshin is horrible at sensing power.

Seriously? I mean, fucking hell, I just DID prove to you that he sucks at it. You just fricken quoted it, for crying out loud. I'll dumb it down and explain it to you as simple as possible so that you'll have a chance to understand it.

Kaioshin bares witness to, as you yourself just said, Gohan's full power. Then, a little later, he freaks out over Pui Pui and says that they'll have to take him together. What does this imply? This implies that, if he can sense power with an accurcy, that Pui Pui is more powerful than SSJ2 Gohan who's full power he just witnessed.

Kaiohshin want to take him together to help Base-form Vegeta and not to help Gohan. Remember, Kaiohshin didn't know anything about the true power of Goku and Vegeta. Also, Babidi wouldn't chose a main fighter that is weaker than Freeza.

[Onikage725]

The way I see it is the movie's set in a universe where Ultimate Gohan oblitereated Super Buu. And either everyone Buu killed was revived (inadvertantly leaving Vegeta dead) or Buu simply didn't do the Human Extinction Attack in that universe~

Well that explains our differing opinion on Gohan.

I see it as taking place in a universe where Goku killed Fat Buu. It seems to fit Goku's statement about not having a fight like that since Buu (implies to me that he went all out against Buu, as opposed to dogging it like he did in the series), and fits in with Gohan not being drawn or portrayed in an "Ultimate" way. Also, and this is basically fanon, but it doesn't seem like a world traumatized by the genocide attack, nor are any of the revived dead recent but bad spirits who died at Buu's hands.

The only hole here, as far as I can see, is Goten and Trunks knowing fusion. But they could just have easily been taught the technique anyway. It's not like Goku was staring down a great threat when he learned it, and it is a useful skill to have.

And I actually have to say goodguy777 does make a couple of decent points. One, Kaioshin's focus was very Gohan-centric. He was content to let Gohan handle Dabura, right? The only one shitting a brick there was Vegeta, cuz he thought Gohan had gone soft. To Kaioshin, Goku and Vegeta were wildcards. And we debated at length and agree that Goku and Vegeta were holding down their ki. How could he know what Vegeta could do before his fight with Pui Pui?

That doesn't necessarily mean Pui Pui was crazy-strong, just that we can't fault Kaioshin for not knowing how strong Vegeta was.

But here is a question. Does Babidi know how strong Kaioshin is? Babidi doesn't know how strong the "earthlings" are, but if he knows what Kaioshin can do, and that Kaioshin is a potential combatant, it would be weird for him to send a vastly inferior henchman in. I mean, if Pui Pui's power is where we basically agree it was, then the battle would have gone just as poorly if Kaioshin had stepped up to bat and thumped him once in the forehead, or if they had heeded his advice and attacked him all at once. Technically, it was a poor plan on Babidi's part.

So either way it requires some suspension of disbelief.

Just playing Devil's Advocate again, don't mind me.

[temujin]

That's debatable. Assuming that the movie takes everyone from a certain timeframe but screws with where they ought to be, Gohan should still be on Kaioshinkai and not yet powered up. He also didn't really act like he was, as opposed to the series and movie 13 where he gets SSJ-like in combat. I know his fight with Freeza would only loosely count as "combat," but you get my meaning. I kind of see 12 and 13 (as far as Gohan is concerned) like movie 8 to movie 9- close time frames, and everyone else is of fairly consistent power, but Gohan hasn't upgraded until the latter film.

The way I see it is the movie's set in a universe where Ultimate Gohan oblitereated Super Buu. And either everyone Buu killed was revived (inadvertantly leaving Vegeta dead) or Buu simply didn't do the Human Extinction Attack in that universe~

Learn to read please, prove me that Kaiohshin is horrible at sensing power.

Seriously? I mean, fucking hell, I just DID prove to you that he sucks at it. You just fricken quoted it, for crying out loud. I'll dumb it down and explain it to you as simple as possible so that you'll have a chance to understand it.

Kaioshin bares witness to, as you yourself just said, Gohan's full power. Then, a little later, he freaks out over Pui Pui and says that they'll have to take him together. What does this imply? This implies that, if he can sense power with an accurcy, that Pui Pui is more powerful than SSJ2 Gohan who's full power he just witnessed.

Kaiohshin want to take him together to help Base-form Vegeta and not to help Gohan. Remember, Kaiohshin didn't know anything about the true power of Goku and Vegeta. Also, Babidi wouldn't chose a main fighter that is weaker than Freeza.

I agree.
If kibito was close to a ssj and dabura killed him(dabura knew how strong was kibito)it makes sense that pui pui is stronger than freeza.
I wonder if dabura could see through their supressed pl's.
I mean when z-warriors faced nappa all of them were supressed and still piccolo had an higher pl so...dabura still claims that base sayajins were the stronger ones in potential which means he knew that all of them supressed their pl's.

Does Babidi know how strong Kaioshin is? Babidi doesn't know how strong the "earthlings" are, but if he knows what Kaioshin can do, and that Kaioshin is a potential combatant, it would be weird for him to send a vastly inferior henchman in. I mean, if Pui Pui's power is where we basically agree it was, then the battle would have gone just as poorly if Kaioshin had stepped up to bat and thumped him once in the forehead, or if they had heeded his advice and attacked him all at once.

Exactly .

[Kid Trunks]

The way I see it is the movie's set in a universe where Ultimate Gohan oblitereated Super Buu. And either everyone Buu killed was revived (inadvertantly leaving Vegeta dead) or Buu simply didn't do the Human Extinction Attack in that universe~

Well that explains our differing opinion on Gohan.

I see it as taking place in a universe where Goku killed Fat Buu. It seems to fit Goku's statement about not having a fight like that since Buu (implies to me that he went all out against Buu, as opposed to dogging it like he did in the series), and fits in with Gohan not being drawn or portrayed in an "Ultimate" way. Also, and this is basically fanon, but it doesn't seem like a world traumatized by the genocide attack, nor are any of the revived dead recent but bad spirits who died at Buu's hands.

The only hole here, as far as I can see, is Goten and Trunks knowing fusion. But they could just have easily been taught the technique anyway. It's not like Goku was staring down a great threat when he learned it, and it is a useful skill to have.

But doesn't Gohan's "closed eyes' end any kind of debate? Because he never has the "open eyes" again after he goes Ultimate.