Worst DB/Z/GT intros

Tsukento · Post by **Tsukento** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:36 pm

The tune is indeed nice, just doesn't fit at all with WE GOTTA POWER's scenes.

It's like I'm watching an amateur AMV.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:48 pm

Joey Batz · Post by **Joey Batz** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:50 pm

I think this blows the GT rap away in terms of bad intros:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mSXXspS ... re=related

And people will practically shoot me for this one, but I never minded most of Funimation's openings. The GT rap was awful, but I feel like the only one that liked "Rock the Dragon". Of course, "Cha La Head Cha La" blows completely owns "Rock the Dragon". The best Funimation opening, in my opinion, was for Dragon Ball. It was just a dub of the original Japanese intro, rather than some horrible attempt to appeal to American kids with "gangsta" rap.

omegacwa · Post by **omegacwa** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:03 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:Call it stupid little kids falling for Funi's plan as expected or say that there's an intrinsic quality of DragonBall that even Funimation's edits and changes couldn't completely destroy. But we enjoyed it.
That “intrinsic” quality you mentioned is something I’ve argued in favor for constantly against people who claim that the edits/script rewrites/bad acting/bad replacement music were all completely 100% necessary for DBZ to have been a success in the U.S. when all they prove is that it really DOESN’T matter what you do with it. Give it sub-porn quality acting, dialogue, and music (which FUNimation did), and people will still love it unconditionally in spite of it because the show itself is just THAT damn magnetic.

But all that of course comes back to the visuals, Toriyama and Toei’s creative magic; that’s the mysterious “intrinsic” quality right there. It has little or nothing to do with the bargain basement package FUNi wrapped it in.

Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:The Japanese version was something filtered secondhand through Chris Psaros, unless you were "lucky" enough to snag a VHS with swear-filled subtitles.
Ahem. My VHS subtitles were many things, but “swear-filled” certainly wasn’t one of them. Anime labs weren’t the ONLY guys subtitling this series back in the old days you know.

Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:The fact of the matter is, the original version simply wasn't all that accessible in the show's original run. So, this song(and yes, Rock the Dragon) represent the first time we saw a new DragonBall adventure. For kids and teens during the initial run, the TV run was probably the only way to get new DragonBall episodes. Honestly, we were then probably too excited about the start of DragonBall and too young to evaluate the music on any truly critical level. Now the thing has a sense of nostalgia attached to it, and nostalgia is hard to shake.
Yeah there’s nostalgia… but even STILL…

I loved Masters of the Universe, the OLD Masters of the Universe cartoon, unconditionally as a 4 year old. Flash forward to now, and yeah, there’s still a great deal of nostalgia attached to it for me, but in spite of that cartoon meaning the world to my inner 4 year old, my adult mind is still NOT gonna argue with anyone that it’s in any way a “good” cartoon, cause it’s simply not. Its complete dogshit to my or anybodies present day sensibilities.

Yeah I (along with many others in my age range who remember it fondly) plan on buying the DVD boxsets for it at some point down the road cause the nostalgia’s still there and my inner 4 year old hasn’t died… but do I even remember things like the BGM (not the theme song; the BGM)? Do I still “rock out” to it today? Does anybody? Hell no. The style in which typical U.S. cartoons were created usually entailed cheaply produced, mind numbing, generic “action” music blathering on endlessly in the background. And the Faulconer music for DBZ comes from this very same school of music.

DBZ’s Japanese score, like almost EVERY Japanese anime score, was as well made as it was that it could stand on it’s own as incredible music in and of itself because it was also made to sell soundtrack CDs (which it still does very much to this day even). American cartoon music was made to just be there and take up space. The only sort of merchandise we in the U.S. traditionally care about selling in our children’s television marketplace are toys, which is one of numerous reasons why our cartoons tend to be as superficial as they are.

Japanese children’s shows go the full nine yards and are as high end as they are so that they can sell THAT much more related merchandise (including soundtrack CDs, art books, and so forth), and those (comparatively) high end production values are one of the reasons why those shows are just as appealing to adults as they are to kids, and that level of cross age appeal also means MORE money in the creators’ pockets. That extra effort goes a LONG way and they know it.

I saw this trend in anime early on as a kid, and that level of artistic craft was one of the things that turned me off to U.S. made cartoons growing up. I’ve always said that if I hadn’t already been acquainted with DBZ through the Japanese version and saw the dub first, I’d have probably loathed it because the style of acting, writing, and music were of the same level of quality in the kind of cartoons I grew to detest early on in life.

And I’m certainly not alone on this; why do you think it is that so many of the younger anime fans that the DBZ dub helped to create often “leave DBZ behind” when they see other (better dubbed) anime and “realize” what a piece of shit it supposedly is?

Because most people, even inexplicably people who ought to know better regarding the drastic differences in anime dubs, take the DBZ dub at face value for some reason and assume that that’s what the level of quality that the show itself has always been like, saw “real” anime, and realized what a new world of artistic craft and quality awaited them elsewhere. The people who stuck it out and remain loyal DBZ fans today, be it because they found the Japanese version, or because they still hold fast to their childhood love of the dub, belong to a comparatively “cult” fanbase.

Most general people either outright dismiss English Dragon Ball (and thus Dragon Ball as a whole) as poorly produced kiddie tripe (and with FUNi’s production values, who can blame them?), or get into the art style and love it for a time, before expanding their anime horizons, and leaving it behind in disgust with themselves that they ever liked such a “bad” anime in the first place. But the cash they already spent on DBZ during their time as fans is already in FUNi’s pockets of course.

Don’t laugh that concept off; it’s happened to a LOT of people. I submit to you of course that things didn’t necessarily have to be that way, and that the dub’s distinct “style” tends to be its own worst enemy in the long haul because it has no real lasting power; because it simply wasn’t created with any lasting power in mind, rather it was made with the late 80’s/early90’s American cartoon mindset to simply turn a quick profit (hence why the show gets the “fad” label from both detractors, and even sometimes FUNi themselves, so often).

That the show is still around and still relatively in the mainstream consciousness and still selling DVDs is a testament to the “intrinsic” quality of the show itself, not the lameass U.S. production quality weighing it down from achieving possibly even MORE widespread appeal than it already has.

So let me submit this query; let’s say the tables were reversed and say it wasn’t Faulconer who scored the Z dub; let’s say it was Menza who scored the Z dub from the getgo. By your rationale, because it would therefore now be the music to the series as tons of kids were first exposed to it instead, people would thus be hailing THAT score as bitchin’ tunes, and the rap intro would be the one getting defended from the purists by the nostalgia crowd.

But would that level of nostalgic love and passionate defense against legitimate criticism also necessarily hold any merit in proving any sort of inherent “quality” to the music as good music unto itself? Probably not, as we’re already proving right now by making fun of the Menza GT rap (since that one came later on after the familiarity and nostalgia for the Faulconer Z tunes had already set in) and recognizing it as complete and utter shit.

I’ll go one further; in this alternate reality where Menza did the Z dub score, what if Faulconer came in to do GT later on with that same intro of his that so many seem to like? Think that one would thus be the one getting the same level of derision and scorn as the GT rap does now? Seems likely to me considering the treatment the Menza score gets compared to Faulconer, when really the two scores are not all THAT far apart in terms of compositional quality and inappropriateness to the show itself. Faulconer, Menza… it’s all more or less on the same level of crap for the same reasons.

Then let’s go even farther than that; what if it wasn’t Faulconer OR Menza that FUNi used… what if, just what if, they used something in the vein of the Portugese or Canadian intros? Hey, the show still does plenty well over in those places in spite of THOSE intros… what does that tell you about the show itself? That it has to be pretty motherfucking good to gain the amount of fans and notoriety it does even with shit like that preceding each episode.

But if those were the intros that FUNi used for the North American markets, and those were what you first saw and heard as your first exposure to Dragon Ball… would you still be so willing to make fun of them and call them for what they are, which is rubbish, just as you do now? Really, anyone who may be reading this and who will be quick to mock another country’s shitty dub of the series but will jump to FUNi and Faulconer’s defense at a moment’s notice; dig deep and ask yourself that question.

My point is that Faulconer’s score is a true oddity; almost every BGM score made in this “action cartoon” style (generic, rambling, one-note, forgettable) is historically almost never looked upon as some sort of artistic achievement by anyone. Do people still remember and listen to the BGM score for Silver Hawks, or Sewer Sharks, or Biker Mice from Mars, or Stone Protectors, or the U.S. Street Fighter cartoon? Even whatever ardent cult following they may still have today? No. No one’s gonna defend whatever music those shows contained as being spectacular in any way cause they weren’t. People remember those shows on a much more base, child-like level.

Faulconer though had the fortune to be scoring one of the most magnetic and insanely popular shows of all time with a drawing and staying power unlike any other. Therefore he gets praise by association. His score could’ve been literally ANYTHING, including him farting into a tin can for hours at a time, and it would still be loved because of its association with people’s first exposure to Dragon Ball. It could’ve been anyone, any production company no matter how low grade who could’ve gotten this kind of credit with THAT show under their belt; if a bunch of hobos off the streets of Manhattan had somehow gotten this show on mainstream U.S. airwaves, they’d be the ones hailed by fanboys for brining this show to them.

And I suppose that’s why many folks seem unable or perhaps even unwilling to separate their critical eyes from their nostalgia, like most people otherwise have no trouble doing with shows with production values of a similar vein like Dino Riders or The Real Ghostbusters (well… unless you’re an avid contributing essay writer on Retro Junk); recognizing it as nothing of artistic excellence, but still smiling knowingly with it out of nostalgia for those childhood years spent loving it.

It’s because Dragon Ball is something far different from those shows; Dragon Ball is something truly special and critic-proof.

Put it this way; let’s say Faulconer’s score were the score to some regular generic U.S. made action cartoon from the 80’s (which it EASILY could’ve been). Would it still have the same sized fanbase it has today without Dragon Ball there to prop it up? Honestly?

Kid Trunks wrote:Well... thanks for shitting on my parade.
Wasn't my intention, believe me, and sorry if that's how it came off.

I’m just trying to make people who are quick to mock other terribly produced dubs, but not their own pet terribly produced dub just because one’s from another country and the other is the one they grew up on, think twice before committing to something of an unfair double standard.

If the French dub or the Portugese dub can be considered fair game for ripping on, then the FUNi dub by all rights belongs in their company just as much, because basically it’s just another in a long, long line of cheaply made foreign dubs for this show, one that’s no more innocent of reducing it to utter laughable cheesiness than the others are.

I just quoted you to prove one thing, Your posts are always so damn long. Seriously, in every topic you post there is an essay response. I mean good for you and all but jeez!

Anyway, do I think the changes to the dub were necessary? No, of course not. But I don't think they are as bad as everyone is claiming. For someone who has watched the entire series in both english and japanese, I can tell you some of the episodes, especially in the boo saga are dubbed quite well with surprisingly accurate scripts. And to say the acting is below Porn quality is hilarious, but completely untrue.

There is something I would like to note. I honestly think a lot of the "Problems" with the acting is that the way Japanese people speak, and the angry sounds they make (grunts and what not) just sound nicer due to the tone and inflection of the way Japanese people speak. English is a much harder, less fluid language, so trying to duplicate some of the smooth power up noises in English is very difficult.

Another "Problem" with the dub, is that in America, when a certain cast member of an animation show drops out, they replace them with someone who can do an impression. That is the main reason most of the voices are "bad" in a lot of peoples minds (not mine though). I think it would have been cool if they recast the show entirely and didn't bother copying the ocean cast, but whatever.

I hate how people harp on Chris Sabat so much. He is actually quite talented. Just because he doesn't sound like the Vegeta(an so on) that you want, you can't deny that the man has some serious range. I honestly didn't realize how many characters he did until I saw a cast list a few years ago.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:27 pm

I don't even notice the music in any version, really, except for "SSJ Transformation" and "Vegeta's Theme" (the one with the bells).

I think it's because I never got into the anime, which was in turn because the anime sucked. Not the music, not the voices, but the anime itself. Screw 'magic', Toei shat all over Dragonball far worse than FUNi did.

Anyway, on intros.... they're both bad. But I slightly prefer the "FUCK YEAH WE'RE GONNA WRECK SOME SHIT UP", (even if it was a total lie and your chances of seeing any shit get wrecked were less than your chances of catching that damn Articuno) over a bunch of non-sequiturs stuck together with a cheerful "Fuck you!" at the end.

Tsukento · Post by **Tsukento** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:42 pm

Rocketman wrote:Screw 'magic', Toei shat all over Dragonball far worse than FUNi did.

Say wut?

I'd say the anime handled the important. key parts very well. The animation, the music (or sometimes lack of) and acting helped in a big way. Only thing I can say Toei screwed up were the plot holes and filler segments.

Kid Trunks · Post by **Kid Trunks** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:02 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote: Put it this way; let’s say Faulconer’s score were the score to some regular generic U.S. made action cartoon from the 80’s (which it EASILY could’ve been). Would it still have the same sized fanbase it has today without Dragon Ball there to prop it up? Honestly?

Probably not. But would you still consider it to be such garbage?

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:25 pm

Kid Trunks wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote: Put it this way; let’s say Faulconer’s score were the score to some regular generic U.S. made action cartoon from the 80’s (which it EASILY could’ve been). Would it still have the same sized fanbase it has today without Dragon Ball there to prop it up? Honestly?
Probably not. But would you still consider it to be such garbage?

I wouldn't because it wouldn't be raping its source material. Like say they dubbed Thunder Cats in Germany but put a bunch of "Snoop Dog" in it, that's how the Dragonball score feels to me.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:14 pm

Post by **Herms** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:34 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:That still leaves 3 story arcs and 200 prior episodes of mostly complete and utter crap. It’s literally the ass-end of the series. So in essence the pro-Buu saga argument is that FUNimation deserves props for batting 1 for 4? Even if the Buu episodes WERE so well produced, well acted, well scored, and accurately translated (and I certainly don’t feel they were translated all that accurately, at least in the parts I saw) then it’s still too little, too fucking late.

To be fair, 91 episodes constitutes about a third of the series, not a fourth. But I do agree that it's still too little, too late, and that the Buu era dub isn't so well-acted or accurate as many say it is, though it's certainly better than season 3 or the like.

So, the topic. Best opening, in my opinion: Cha-La-Head-Cha-La. Best closing: We Were Angels. Worst opening: no opinion. Worst closing: whatever the GT ending is where the dragonballs are shown bursting out of stone. There's just something I don't like about that song.

Chrono Trigger · Post by **Chrono Trigger** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:44 pm

omegacwa said : I just quoted you to prove one thing, Your posts are always so damn long. Seriously, in every topic you post there is an essay response. I mean good for you and all but jeez!

They might always be lengthy but 86% percent of the time he is saying some real shit and laying down some decent knowledge. I actual LEARN stuff sometimes when I read his posts.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:08 pm

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:24 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:That's flattering to hear and all... but I'm almost afraid to ask what the other 14% consists of.

Filler?

SaiyaMel · Post by **SaiyaMel** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:26 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mlR9lqL ... re=related

I've never seen this before and had no idea it existed.

You know, apparently that intro was produced in the US by Funimation, and "Rock the Dragon" in Canada by Ocean Group... strange, huh.

Chrono Trigger · Post by **Chrono Trigger** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:29 pm

Kunzait_83 said : hat's flattering to hear and all... but I'm almost afraid to ask what the other 14% consists of.

Meh. Sometimes your views on things can be a bit biased. Not that it's a bad thing. Just saying.

SSj_Rambo · Post by **SSj_Rambo** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:42 pm

That video always made me feel a bit sorry for the Canadians.

You can download it on this page under "Other Stuff". Plus it has a lot of the other openings.

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:00 pm

SSj_Rambo wrote:That video always made me feel a bit sorry for the Canadians.

Don't worry, more or less the entire non-English speaking world feels sorry for you too.

SSj_Rambo · Post by **SSj_Rambo** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:04 pm

Adamant wrote:
SSj_Rambo wrote:That video always made me feel a bit sorry for the Canadians.
Don't worry, more or less the entire non-English speaking world feels sorry for you too.

I'm sure they do, and I envoy them right back.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:06 pm

Rocketman wrote:I think it's because I never got into the anime, which was in turn because the anime sucked. Not the music, not the voices, but the anime itself. Screw 'magic', Toei shat all over Dragonball far worse than FUNi did.

Fuck yes. And fuck the manga too for that matter, the series was 100,000x better when I read Toriyama's mind before he wrote it. Putting it on paper just shat all over it.

-Corey

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:07 pm

MajinVejitaXV wrote:
Rocketman wrote:I think it's because I never got into the anime, which was in turn because the anime sucked. Not the music, not the voices, but the anime itself. Screw 'magic', Toei shat all over Dragonball far worse than FUNi did.
Fuck yes. And fuck the anime too for that matter, the series was 100,000x better when I read Toriyama's mind. Putting it on paper just shat all over it.

-Corey

Fuck that shit I liked it better when Toriyama didn't even think of it yet, when he finally conjured the idea up in his mind it just sucked hard!