King Cold and his forms

[NeptuneKai]

I really hate the way they essentially redesigned Freeza and then kill him off immediately.

I think Toriyama had to, there is no big break with a lame villain in the manga, another Freeza fight would have been incredibly boring.

Obviously, the better thing would be to have Goku kill Freeza on Namek, then King Kold goes to Earth to get revenge for his son's death.

Then Cooler comes down to get revenge for Freeza...you'd think they would catch on.

[Rocketman]

You really think so? I think the way it is was one of the best parts of the whole series.

Yes, I do. It's the kind of bullshit a thirteen year old fanfic writer does to show how ZOMGawesome their Mary-Sue is.

[Dayspring]

I think they have the ability to go both beyond and below their original stage. Going beyond will increase their fighting capabilities and strengths, but will demand large amounts of energy (like going up levels in SSJ forms). Going below their base level conserves their energies, which I estimate is the reason why Freeza was able to bulk up when he was in his final stage (or perhaps even be able to attain the final stage at all).

So personally I think the second stage is the original stage, the third and fourth are increased-strength transformations, while the first stage is the descreased-strength transformation.

Another thing we aren't considering is that it's more like SSJ: only really elite members of the race can transform more than once. I don't see Cold going into battle against someone who could possibly kill him while still in one of his weaker stages. Seriously: if that's not an occasion to use a transformation, when the hell is?

[Kaboom]

I'm kind of going at it from a visual standpoint, too. The "fourth" form Freeza and Cooler displayed look the most natural and easy to work in. The "first" form, the smaller one with horns, is also practical, and would make sense to be the form to hold back the most power and allow the Changeling to go about their normal, relatively-peaceful business.

The forms in-between, which I believe they gain more of as they grow and age, seem to only serve to let more and more power loose. Being as large and bulky and spiky and all as they are, that seems to be the only thing they'd be good for. King Kold, I think, probably stuck around in his "second" form most of the time to appear large and imposing, whereas Freeza prefers to let his Death Beams do the talking.

Cooler's "fifth" form, I believe, draws from the same power as Freeza's "100%," but channels it in a more usable and less strainful way, kind of like "Ultra" Super Saiyan compared to "Mastered" Super Saiyan.

All in all, you could say Changelings only have ONE true level of power, and all their various "forms" serve only to hold that power back or pump it up.

[Bussani]

You really think so? I think the way it is was one of the best parts of the whole series.

Yes, I do. It's the kind of bullshit a thirteen year old fanfic writer does to show how ZOMGawesome their Mary-Sue is.

I suppose you're right, but the alternative is just more of the same too.

Besides, I think the term Mary-Sue is thrown around too much these days. Freeza was just as perfect and untouchable at first too, as was Goku when he went SSJ. Dragon Ball is full of 'omg he's too strong we can't even touch him' characters.

Like I said, after that initial appearance Trunks becomes pretty useless. He's scared of the Androids and can't even touch them, and his trump card against Cell was more of a hindrance than a help.

[Haseowolf]

I'm kind of going at it from a visual standpoint, too. The "fourth" form Freeza and Cooler displayed look the most natural and easy to work in. The "first" form, the smaller one with horns, is also practical, and would make sense to be the form to hold back the most power and allow the Changeling to go about their normal, relatively-peaceful business.

The forms in-between, which I believe they gain more of as they grow and age, seem to only serve to let more and more power loose. Being as large and bulky and spiky and all as they are, that seems to be the only thing they'd be good for. King Kold, I think, probably stuck around in his "second" form most of the time to appear large and imposing, whereas Freeza prefers to let his Death Beams do the talking.

Cooler's "fifth" form, I believe, draws from the same power as Freeza's "100%," but channels it in a more usable and less strainful way, kind of like "Ultra" Super Saiyan compared to "Mastered" Super Saiyan.

All in all, you could say Changelings only have ONE true level of power, and all their various "forms" serve only to hold that power back or pump it up.

I quite like this one. It really makes a lot of sense with what is stated and shown while explaining why Cooler seems to have an extra form. Hell, to me, I think this even helps explain why Freeza wasn't in his 100% form when turned into Mecha Freeza. Like Super Saiya-jins, when they lose consciousness they revert back to their base form, so when Freeza lost on Namek, he would revert to his normal final form. (Though, IIRC, Freeza was bulked up while floating through space, but you get the picture.)

[Rocketman]

I suppose you're right, but the alternative is just more of the same too.

The alternative was the end of the series, which would be a good thing.

Besides, I think the term Mary-Sue is thrown around too much these days. Freeza was just as perfect and untouchable at first too, as was Goku when he went SSJ. Dragon Ball is full of 'omg he's too strong we can't even touch him' characters.

Firstly, it's more acceptable for villains to be like that because they have to be a credible challenge.

Secondly, it's not just power, as I've mentioned elsewhere:

-dark past
-usual hair/eye color
-stronger than all other good guys
-destroys an established villain better/faster than the hero
-kills a established villain permanently
-steals a formerly unique trait from the hero
-uses a sword
-kid of two canon characters who've barely looked at each other

I mean, geez, he scores like an 80 on the Universal Mary Sue Litmus Test, where 30 is the beginning of Sue-dom and 50+ is "scrap and start over, or make sure you did the test correctly".

[Victator Supreme]

You really think so? I think the way it is was one of the best parts of the whole series.

Yes, I do. It's the kind of bullshit a thirteen year old fanfic writer does to show how ZOMGawesome their Mary-Sue is.

Except this was Akira Toriyama, one of the greatest comic book creators ever. So the story turned out to be awesome.

Not to mention after this he was pretty much a punching bag for the rest of the the story arc. He was used perfectly as a means to develop Vegeta's character. So your whole theroy falls apart.

Mary Sue equals inserting yourself into a series. Any other definition is wrong.

If a new character is recieveing too much attention. Then they can be a Poochie.

[Xyex]

Not necessarily, Freeza took quite a while to transform to his final/original form. The only exception was Kuriza and that was in a gag manga. King Cold could have just reasoned that it was too late and that his sword approach would fair better then figuring out a way to buy time or look for a window of opportunity to transform.

IIRC, though I've not seen it for a while, Freeza's transformations in the manga were pretty damned quick. Even the one to his final form. Besides, even in the anime, with all the time there was between Freeza's death and Cold finally attacking Trunks he could have, at the very least, transformed once.

Secondly, it's not just power, as I've mentioned elsewhere:

-dark past
-usual hair/eye color
-stronger than all other good guys
-destroys an established villain better/faster than the hero
-kills a established villain permanently
-steals a formerly unique trait from the hero
-uses a sword
-kid of two canon characters who've barely looked at each other

I mean, geez, he scores like an 80 on the Universal Mary Sue Litmus Test, where 30 is the beginning of Sue-dom and 50+ is "scrap and start over, or make sure you did the test correctly".

You forgot 'sole survivor of a people'

But that test is just a base guideline and should never been taken at face value. Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo all rate as high or higher than Trunks does. And from other sources you've got Luffy, Zoro, Sanji, Naruto, Sasuke, Appocalypse, Wolverine, Superman, Harry Potter, and many others who rank over 50, some of which are even higher than Trunks. IIRC, Harry Potter was like, 120 or something.

[Wojak]

But that test is just a base guideline and should never been taken at face value. Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo all rate as high or higher than Trunks does. And from other sources you've got Luffy, Zoro, Sanji, Naruto, Sasuke, Appocalypse, Wolverine, Superman, Harry Potter, and many others who rank over 50, some of which are even higher than Trunks. IIRC, Harry Potter was like, 120 or something.

Also, Krillin got 30+
"Fanfiction authors beware - Mary's on the loose. There's still a chance you can save this character with some TLC, though. Role-players and original fiction characters, you should also strongly consider giving your character a workover."

Krillin is in no way near a Mary Sue.

[Bussani]

This is what I meant when I said the term is thrown around too much these days.

Mary Sue equals inserting yourself into a series. Any other definition is wrong.

Pretty much this, while making that character perfect in every way. The original Mary Sue literally had no flaws. So long as you avoid making a character comparable to Road Runner of Bugs Bunny, you should be okay.

[Rocketman]

This is what I meant when I said the term is thrown around too much these days.

You'll note I said "it's the kind of blahblahblahilikechichiblahblah Mary-Sue".

[NeptuneKai]

This is what I meant when I said the term is thrown around too much these days.

Mary Sue equals inserting yourself into a series. Any other definition is wrong.

Pretty much this, while making that character perfect in every way. The original Mary Sue literally had no flaws. So long as you avoid making a character comparable to Road Runner of Bugs Bunny, you should be okay.

So just avoid writing Twilight then?

[Bussani]

So just avoid writing Twilight then?

Exactly.

Anyway, think of it this way. If Trunks hadn't done it, Goku would have. You can say Trunks came in and won all perfectly while no one else had a chance, but then Goku shows up and blocks Trunks' sword with his finger. It's not like Trunks just swooped in as a perfect deus ex machina -- no more than Goku when he usually swoops in anyway.

I just think it's more interesting that someone unexpected showed up to save the day than just having Goku appear and do it again. After chapters and chapters and episodes and episodes of Goku beating up Freeza it would have been boring to see him do it some more and beat up his Dad too, at least to me. Even if he'd finished them off as fast as Trunks did, it'd just be reinforcing how perfect and unbeatable he is, which we should already have drilled into our heads at that point.

The fact that someone else shows up and shows that Goku can be matched, and then goes on to tell them that they're still not strong enough for what's coming, that's meaningful to me.

[Rocketman]

After chapters and chapters and episodes and episodes of Goku beating up Freeza it would have been boring to see him do it some more and beat up his Dad too, at least to me.

Which is why I think Freeza and Goku should've died on Namek and never come back.

[Bussani]

After chapters and chapters and episodes and episodes of Goku beating up Freeza it would have been boring to see him do it some more and beat up his Dad too, at least to me.

Which is why I think Freeza and Goku should've died on Namek and never come back.

To be honest, I'd have been happy with that ending too. Even if the series had stopped there, that would have been a good ending. But there are plenty of things I like about the Cell saga, and that had a good ending too, with the torch being passed to Gohan. It could have ended just as well there. But then the Buu saga too has a few things that were good, and the Earth-powered Genki Dama was a good ending too.

But I digress. Rocketman, are you saying you think Goku and Freeza should have died, but the story should have continued into the next saga using a different method? Or do you think it should have ended there?

[Rocketman]

But I digress. Rocketman, are you saying you think Goku and Freeza should have died, but the story should have continued into the next saga using a different method? Or do you think it should have ended there?

I think it should have ended there. But if it had to continue, then it continues with Goku and Freeza dead, and change it so the Namek Dragonballs cannot bring a person back who died once already. And Goku is the last Super Saiyan.

[Bussani]

But I digress. Rocketman, are you saying you think Goku and Freeza should have died, but the story should have continued into the next saga using a different method? Or do you think it should have ended there?

I think it should have ended there. But if it had to continue, then it continues with Goku and Freeza dead, and change it so the Namek Dragonballs cannot bring a person back who died once already. And Goku is the last Super Saiyan.

Fair enough. I wouldn't mind seeing an alternate universe story like that to show what could have been, to be honest. XD

[Victator Supreme]

Goku is an essential part of the series. Even if his story finished on Namek. He was still too importent to the other characters to be killed. In paticular Vegeta and Gohan. Noone in the series functions quite right without Goku as a center.


What made Trunks killing Frieza so great was how out of left field it was. For over dozens of chapters (and tv episodes) Frieza had been this invincible enemy. Everytime he seemed defeated he somehow had a trump card. Then with Goku missing you see Frieza has survived and upgraded as a cyborg. Plus his equally strong father has showed up. Leading viewers to natrually assume "here we go again." But instead new guy shows up and destroys both with ease. Only to find out, there are new villians on the way stronger than him.

Now thats how you tie a bow on the Saiyan/Namek arc and kick start the new one.

Plus Frieza had one of the most satisfying villian deaths ever. He was cut in half, then the halfs were cut into tiny pieces, then the tiny pieces were vaporised. Not to mention the poetic justice of it. Frieza being killed by the offspring of the one saiyan he knowingly allowed to live.

People can try to say it was not awesome. But by that point it becomes white noise to me.

[Bussani]

Goku is an essential part of the series. Even if his story finished on Namek. He as still too importent to the other characters to be killed. In paticular Vegeta and Gohan. Noone in he series functions quite riht without Goku as a center.


What made Trunks killing Freeza so great was how out of left field it was. For over dozens of chapters (and tv episodes) Freeza had been this incincible enemy. Everytime he seemed defeated he somehow had a trump card. Then with Goku missing you see Freeza has survied and upgraded as a cyborg. Plus his equally string father has showed up. Leading viewers to natrually assume "here we go again." But instead new guy shows up and destroys both with ease. Only to find out, there are new villians on the way stronger than him.

Now thats how you tie a bow on the Saiyan/Namek arc and kick start the new one.

Plus Freeza had one of the most satisfying villian deaths ever. He was cut in half, then the halfs were cut into tiny pieces, then the tiny pieces were vaporised. Not to mention the poetic justice of it. Freeza being killed by the offspring of the one saiyan he knowingly allowed to live.

Well said. You just put into words what I loved about that part of the story. And I'd never actually considered the fact about Trunks being the son of the Saiyan he let live, that is pretty ironic.