Saiyan hybrids in the stars?

[Rocketman]

Just say that the 'ancient ones' reached some kind of evolutionary pinnacle in terms of their DNA. From this pinnacle, they can evolve further into the different races of today, but the DNA base remains largely the same.

There's no such thing as an evolutionary pinnacle, and that's already what happens. Something like 60% of our DNA is exactly the same as a banana. We're 97% the same as a mouse.

Or, the ancient race was of such a recent time that evolution didn't get the chance to completely separate human and Saiyan DNA (other than the tail and SSj, their bases are similar enough to enable interbreeding).

"Other than these MASSIVE GENETIC DIFFERENCES, they're the same!"

Duh.

Option #3: evolution did have its way with all the different offspring of the ancient ones, except for the humans and Saiyans who, through some extreme kind of coincidence, remained compatible.

Then what's the point of the "ancient ones" malarkey?

[Musume]

Bardock's team was killed on the planet they were assigned to take over.

I said LIKE Bardock's team. =P

Unless you're suggesting that Freeza's cronies were sent out to exterminate every last team out on missions? I doubt he'd have enough men strong enough to effectively kill them all. A lot of his flunkies in the original don't even have enough strength to generate ki blasts under their own power.

[Terra-jin]

There's no such thing as an evolutionary pinnacle, and that's already what happens. Something like 60% of our DNA is exactly the same as a banana. We're 97% the same as a mouse.

What I mean is the possibility that DNA doesn't evolve beyond a certain point, save in measures that do not affect compatibility. The stagnation of evolution may be because of a non-competitive environment (like we have on Earth); for the Saiyans we'll have to come up with something else of course But it's ok, we still have two options:

"Other than these MASSIVE GENETIC DIFFERENCES, they're the same!"

Duh.

Exactly. Other than those massive differences, they're still compatible. And who's to say that an Ôzaru or SSj transformation takes up that much DNA? If we share 97% of our DNA with a mouse, then a mere transformation wouldn't be as big a genetic difference as you make it out to be, right?

Then what's the point of the "ancient ones" malarkey?

Obviously, the point is that it's cool to think that humans and Saiyans have common ancestors (even very distant ones).

[Snail]

Option #3: evolution did have its way with all the different offspring of the ancient ones, except for the humans and Saiyans who, through some extreme kind of coincidence, remained compatible.

Then what's the point of the "ancient ones" malarkey?

When mixing elements of the real-world and the fictional world of the Dragon-verse; why not?

[Rocketman]

What I mean is the possibility that DNA doesn't evolve beyond a certain point, save in measures that do not affect compatibility. The stagnation of evolution may be because of a non-competitive environment (like we have on Earth); for the Saiyans we'll have to come up with something else of course But it's ok, we still have two options:

DNA is always evolving, even in stagnant environments.

Exactly. Other than those massive differences, they're still compatible. And who's to say that an Ôzaru or SSj transformation takes up that much DNA? If we share 97% of our DNA with a mouse, then a mere transformation wouldn't be as big a genetic difference as you make it out to be, right?

Well, to be frank, there's nothing in the universe that will generate matter and energy from nowhere.

But besides that, it doesn't matter how little space it takes up, it matters that it takes up space at all.

Example:

Let's say Saiyans have 48 chromosomes, the extra pair containing the data for tails, Oozaru, and SSJ. Introduce Saiyan sperm to Human egg and....nothing. They cannot match up.

Humans and Saiyans have to be genetically identical. Not 'related', not 'both descendants of common ancestor' (humans and the apes are both descendants of a common ancestor and they cannot interbreed), IDENTICAL.

So, the only way this can hope to work is...

The Saiyan race came first. Tails are a dominant/recessive trait, and those recessive for tail are the lowest of the low class (since they can't go Oozaru without the tail). Eventually, the tail-recessives are driven off-world. Arriving on a far distant planet, the R-Saiyans establish themselves at the top of the food chain.

30,000 years later, the R-Saiyans have lost all knowledge of the wider galaxy and now call themselves 'Humans'. Thousands of years of easy life in the lush lands and mild gravity of Earth have weakened the race's physiology drastically, but their genetic code remains untouched.

[Bussani]

Bardock's team was killed on the planet they were assigned to take over.

This is true. Freeza probably took the time to put in the effort and make sure he got all of them. Maybe they all gathered on planet Vegeta to oppose Freeza, since they weren't getting along with him very well at the time (strength in numbers). And maybe that was Freeza's plan all along.

Edit: The whole ancient race that seeds the galaxy thing is from Star Trek if I remember right, and Stargate borrowed it too. Basically it wasn't that everyone had a common ancestor, but that the race meddled with DNA on planets throughout the galaxy millions of years ago.

In fact, we can forget the ancient race, we have the Kais and Kaioshin. They must have been around since the beginning of time, right? And they don't need advanced technology, they're basically supposed to be Gods. Pretty weak Gods in the long run, but still...

[Terra-jin]

I'd guess that Freeza gradually cut the Saiyans short of sorties. Because of his paranoia towards the Super Saiyan, he must've felt the need to contain the Saiyan threat, so he kept the Saiyans more and more under close scrutiny. As a result of this, less and less Saiyans were actually off-world and it became a relatively easy task for Freeza's minions to track every last one down.
However, I don't think Freeza would care if one or two managed to slip his fingers. He was afraid that the Saiyan race as a whole would produce a SSj, he didn't think that any of the survivors would become the thing he feared most.

[SaiyaMel]

I have a theory that Saiyans are nothing more than an offshoot or subspecies of the Homo Sapiens lineage, and that at some point of their evolutionary history - the gene for a tail (which humans and apes still have) was somehow reactivated.. This happens on very rare occasions in humans.

[Rocketman]

I have a theory that Saiyans are nothing more than an offshoot or subspecies of the Homo Sapiens lineage, and that at some point of their evolutionary history - the gene for a tail (which humans and apes still have) was somehow reactivated.. This happens on very rare occasions in humans.

Humans don't have space travel. My idea works better.

[SaiyaMel]

I see. You're saying that it's dominant in Saiyans and a recessive trait in Humans... but what about Akira Toriyama's statement about tails being a recessive trait, in response to a question asking why Trunks and Goten don't have tails? Are you discounting it?

[Musume]

If tails were recessive, Gohan wouldn't've had one.

For example, I have blue eyes. My mother can pass as a Native American but the fact that I have blue eyes means that she's got some crackers in her soup, if you catch my drift.

[Bussani]

If tails were recessive, Gohan wouldn't've had one.

For example, I have blue eyes. My mother can pass as a Native American but the fact that I have blue eyes means that she's got some crackers in her soup, if you catch my drift.

Sometimes a gene can be dormant in one person, but come out in a sibling. Like this case for example:

http://bodyodd.msnbc.msn.com/archive/20 ... 05061.aspx

If Goten and Trunks were both born without tails, Gohan may have been the odd-ball chance that the gene came out.

[Musume]

Sometimes a gene can be dormant in one person, but come out in a sibling.

Yes, but...

The odds are one in a million, say doctors, but it can happen with fraternal twins due the genetic soup in our backgrounds. Peter Propping, former director of the Institute for Human Genetics at Bonn University, told Die Welt that the black mother may have had some white ancestors, or that the white father may have had black ones. Very occasionally, the roll of the DNA die may cause the baby of biracial parents to inherit only the genetic coding for one color.

Unless you're suggesting that Chichi has Saiyan ancestry, that article doesn't support the supposition that tails are recessive. Can't express a recessive trait unless you inherited it from both parents.

The article didn't surprise me much, to be honest. My younger brother and I would've made an interesting set of twins (I'm very light, and he's very dark).

[Bussani]

Sometimes a gene can be dormant in one person, but come out in a sibling.

Yes, but...

The odds are one in a million, say doctors, but it can happen with fraternal twins due the genetic soup in our backgrounds. Peter Propping, former director of the Institute for Human Genetics at Bonn University, told Die Welt that the black mother may have had some white ancestors, or that the white father may have had black ones. Very occasionally, the roll of the DNA die may cause the baby of biracial parents to inherit only the genetic coding for one color.

Unless you're suggesting that Chichi has Saiyan ancestry, or Goku has human ancestry, that article doesn't support the supposition that tails are recessive. Can't express a recessive trait unless you inherited it from both parents.

I thought you'd say that. And strictly speaking, you're right. But I doubt Mr Toriyama cares. A lot of the things in Dragon Ball don't make 100% scientific sense.

[SaiyaMel]

Now I see why some are skeptic about AT's statement regarding tails being recessive.

[Musume]

Dammit, you would quote me just before I could edit my post. Goku's ancestry has no bearing on the conversation. XD

Yeah, I know. I read somewhere that Toriyama had simply forgotten about the whole tails thing and threw the recessive comment out there without looking into it too thoroughly.

Like I said earlier, it didn't seem to surprise Raditz, Vegeta, or Nappa that a human/Saiyan hybrid was possible. You think they might have commented on it if it was uncommon for interspecies matings to produce viable offspring. If I had to hazard a guess, it would be that humanoids can interbreed with other humanoids in spite of what we know from science (with a few salient exceptions, such as Namekians).

[SaiyaMel]

Like I said earlier, it didn't seem to surprise Raditz, Vegeta, or Nappa that a human/Saiyan hybrid was possible. You think they might have commented on it if it was uncommon for interspecies matings to produce viable offspring. If I had to hazard a guess, it would be that humanoids can interbreed with other humanoids in spite of what we know from science (with a few salient exceptions, such as Namekians).

Perhaps Raditz, Vegeta and Nappa already had gathered some other rudimentary data about Earthlings - not just their weak power level...

Then again,, AT described in an interview (think the same one in which he mentioned the tails thing) about the Ginyu Force and Dodoria being of a "hybrid mutent clan",, which carries more weight than his tails comment seeing as Captain Ginyu appears like a mix of Freeza's race with some other..

But if your below statement is correct, then the Star Trek theory fits quite well in regards to DB universe humanoids.

[Velasa]

I always assumed that Goten and Trunks didn't have tails because someone had the sense to remove them before there were purple monkies running around.

[Bussani]

I always assumed that Goten and Trunks didn't have tails because someone had the sense to remove them before there were purple monkies running around.

Same, but if that quote from Toriyama is right he didn't agree with us.

[Rocketman]

I always assumed that Goten and Trunks didn't have tails because someone had the sense to remove them before there were purple monkies running around.

Same, but if that quote from Toriyama is right he didn't agree with us.

It may be a quote from Toriyama, but it's one that must be ignored.