Dabura

goodguy777 · Post by **goodguy777** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 12:55 am

In raw manga, did Goku says something about Dabura and Cell being equal in power level or ki?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:00 am

Yes. "There was a guy named Cell about seven years ago. I guess they're about the same."

goodguy777 · Post by **goodguy777** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:08 am

Rocketman wrote:Yes. "There was a guy named Cell about seven years ago. I guess they're about the same."

What about Vegeta's statements in the raw manga?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:24 am

goodguy777 wrote:
Rocketman wrote:Yes. "There was a guy named Cell about seven years ago. I guess they're about the same."
What about Vegeta's statements in the raw manga?

"Grrr my panties are twisted"

No, seriously:

"I'm saying Dabra's not as terrible as you think. We saw him outside, and we easily could have handled him as long as we dodged his saliva! Kibito was just incompetent, that's all."

Supreme Kai asks Goku if this is true.

"...Yeah. At the level we are now, anyway. He would've been bad news before, though. There was a guy named Cell seven years ago. I guess they're about the same."

Musume · Post by **Musume** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:16 pm

Seems to me that Future Trunks is in for a pretty nasty surprise in his timeline when Babidi comes knocking.

Casual Matt · Post by **Casual Matt** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:44 pm

Doesn't Goku say that Dabura is even stronger than they thought during Dabura's fight with Gohan?

I seem to remember this being proof of Dabura actually being stronger than Cell.

omegacwa · Post by **omegacwa** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:48 pm

I think Goku says something along the lines of "Dabura uses Magic eh? So I guess he is better than Cell". Someone else will take the time to get the exact quote, not me though.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:29 pm

Here's the quote:

Goku: So he uses magic, huh? He's tougher then I thought.

In the original version, Goku states that Dabura is a lot stronger then he thought.

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:50 pm

The manga was way too ambiguous with Dabura.

Goku states Dabura was stronger than he thought, however he never felt 'super' Perfect Cell's ki.

Vegeta did, and he didn't seem to be all that impressed with Dabura.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:03 pm

Musume wrote:Seems to me that Future Trunks is in for a pretty nasty surprise in his timeline when Babidi comes knocking.

That ship's probably sailed, since Future Trunks' timeline is past the chronological equivolent of the Buu Saga.

Horgus wrote:Goku states Dabura was stronger than he thought, however he never felt 'super' Perfect Cell's ki.

Vegeta did, and he didn't seem to be all that impressed with Dabura.

This is kinda like choosing to side with the lesser of two retards for me, but I trust Goku's statements. Goku's spirit was advising Gohan at the end of the fight, so he could have felt Cell's ki.

Vegeta, on the other hand, has a habit of ignoring the strength of an opponent if he feels he's having a particularly good hair day at the time.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:39 pm

Onikage725 wrote:This is kinda like choosing to side with the lesser of two retards for me, but I trust Goku's statements. Goku's spirit was advising Gohan at the end of the fight, so he could have felt Cell's ki.

Vegeta, on the other hand, has a habit of ignoring the strength of an opponent if he feels he's having a particularly good hair day at the time.

How could Goku feel Cell's ki? He was up in the Otherworld with King Kai, and it takes Super Saiyan 3 levels of power to be sensed from the Afterlife.

As for Vegeta, 'stronger than Super Perfect Cell' doesn't necessarily mean 'stronger than a Super Saiyan 2', especially not SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta.

Kid Trunks · Post by **Kid Trunks** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:58 pm

Rocketman wrote:How could Goku feel Cell's ki? He was up in the Otherworld with King Kai, and it takes Super Saiyan 3 levels of power to be sensed from the Afterlife.

To use Instant Transmission, don't you have to sense someone's ki at the location you want to go to? So if he could sense King Kai from Earth, then he could sense Cell from King Kai's planet also...right? I'm not sure though.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:03 pm

Kid Trunks wrote:To use Instant Transmission, don't you have to sense someone's ki at the location you want to go to? So if he could sense King Kai from Earth, then he could sense Cell from King Kai's planet also...right? I'm not sure though.

I think that's a different kind of sensing, though, and requires a lot more focus.

Regular sensing is like the scouter, going "90,000...100,000...110,000..."
Transmission sensing is like...GPS or something, like "Ok, there is a strong signal at 90'30'' N by 30'45'' W...I go there".

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:38 pm

Well, I am sure Son knows what signal to feel for in the case of Cell and Kaiô-sama.

BrollysKin · Post by **BrollysKin** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:33 pm

So was Dabura the devil? How does he differentiate from the devil fought by Goku at Baba's Palace?

Pain · Post by **Pain** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:39 pm

BrollysKin wrote:So was Dabura the devil? How does he differentiate from the devil fought by Goku at Baba's Palace?

I doubt that Dabura was the devil. He was with Babidi for centuries, and Satan rules and/or oversees hell, right? So that means hell's residents have been running wild for a long time, right? WRONG!

Dabura rules the Demon Plane, not Hell.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:24 pm

Pain wrote:I doubt that Dabura was the devil. He was with Babidi for centuries, and Satan rules and/or oversees hell, right? So that means hell's residents have been running wild for a long time, right? WRONG!

Dabura rules the Demon Plane, not Hell.

Huge difference, I'd imagine. XD

Dabura's like the Overlord from Disgaea.

Post by **Herms** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:29 pm

BrollysKin wrote:So was Dabura the devil? How does he differentiate from the devil fought by Goku at Baba's Palace?

The devil Goku fought at Uranai Baba's palace, Akkuman, is a member of a race of devils whose homeland is Hell, while Dabra is from the Demon Realm. Hell is situated at the bottom of the afterlife, while the Demon Realm is at the bottom of the universe, so it's part of the living world.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:37 pm

Rocketman wrote:How could Goku feel Cell's ki? He was up in the Otherworld with King Kai, and it takes Super Saiyan 3 levels of power to be sensed from the Afterlife.

Toriyama kinda failed on the exact science of these things, but my impression was that you need to be generating that level of power to turn heads across dimensions. Goku knew who and where Cell was and had an active interest in surveying that battle, so I don't think that would have been a problem. At least not while Cell was flagrantly flaunting the full depth of his power.

As for Vegeta, 'stronger than Super Perfect Cell' doesn't necessarily mean 'stronger than a Super Saiyan 2', especially not SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta.

Super Perfect Cell was roughly Super Saiyan 2 level, though. As for Vegeta, you know I don't subscribe to the theory that he was SSJ2 at the start of the saga. I'm not going to start a debate over the issue. The sad fact is that Toriyama didn't see the need to specify this, and there are "hints" either way. You and I just put more weight behind different hints.

So without going into that, I'll just say that SSJ2 may not even be required to handle Cell. It was at the level everyone was at during the Cell Saga, sure. But Vegeta vastly exceeded 2nd-stage Cell as it was, and had enough power to do significant damage to Perfect Cell's body. Goku was strong enough to fight Perfect Cell on even footing until he tired out, And even came close to destroying him. Given years to build on (a fairly decent time skip happens compared to the previous Z sagas), and operating under the theory that there isn't necessarily a power cap on SSJ1, and there's no reason to think that Vegeta wouldn't believe himself to be past Cell's level in the Buu Saga (SSJ2 or not).

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:54 pm

Onikage725 wrote:Toriyama kinda failed on the exact science of these things, but my impression was that you need to be generating that level of power to turn heads across dimensions. Goku knew who and where Cell was and had an active interest in surveying that battle, so I don't think that would have been a problem. At least not while Cell was flagrantly flaunting the full depth of his power.

Point conceded.

Super Perfect Cell was roughly Super Saiyan 2 level, though. As for Vegeta, you know I don't subscribe to the theory that he was SSJ2 at the start of the saga. I'm not going to start a debate over the issue. The sad fact is that Toriyama didn't see the need to specify this, and there are "hints" either way. You and I just put more weight behind different hints.

Super Perfect Cell was completely destroyed by half-power SSJ2 Gohan. True, he had some help, but still, I doubt SPC is equal to SSJ2 Gohan at the Games.

As for SSJ2 Vegeta, you're right, let's not go into that.