An observation on Dragon Ball's English-speaking fanbases.

[Remix]

Kunzait's post just opened my eyes. I never knew that there was such a huge difference between Funimation's Dragonball Z and the orginal Dragonball Z.

I guess I'm going to have to change the language track next time I pop in my DVDs to find out what the real deal is, eh?

[MajinVejitaXV]

Oh boy… I’m probably going to piss a lot of people off with this post…

Wow. I've been a fan of DragonBall for about 13 years, been around the online community for about 10, and that was probably the best post I've ever read. Seriously, well done sir.

I love the show, I credit FUNimation for getting the series out there in North America and possibly even giving anime more mainstream exposure...but it really chaps my ass that every time I mention DragonBall to an adult friend, even those into anime to begin with, I get a shudder or plain disgust. I have to ask if their predisposition against the series is based on the English version. It invariably is, I get them begrudgingly to watch some of the series in Japanese, and they look at me like I'm trying to deceive them.

Why? Because, especially today, most dubs are at least somewhat like their original counterparts. Typically, it's the voiceovers that turn people off. With DragonBall however, it's so drastically different that it hurts. I literally feel the need to say, "Oh yeah, I love DragonBall. The Japanese version though." That's something I don't feel like I need to do with any other series, even if the dub is complete shit (like Neon Genesis Evangelion or Love Hina, to name a couple).

I don't begrudge dub fans their version, I just hate the insinuation that the series couldn't stand on its own and needed to be reduced to a poorly Americanized cartoon to succeed. I mean, we're talking about a series that was well known throughout the world before FUNimation even existed.

-Corey

[Captain Awesome]

Oh boy… I’m probably going to piss a lot of people off with this post…

that was probably the best post I've ever read. Seriously, well done sir.

I would have to second that, because I was intending to write my own reply to Gozar's statement, but I'm glad I didn't, because I couldn't have possibly put it as well as you did.

I agree completely, I think dub fans need to realize while they may enjoy the FUNimation dub for what it is, that they simply aren't watching the same show, it isn't a faithful adaption of the original, it's a clusterfuck of half explained concepts and populated by lifeless inconsistent characters, to the point where dub fans have to use terminology from the original Japanese version to explain things, because the dub simply just doesn't address it.

[Vekurotto]

I think dub fans need to realize while they may enjoy the FUNimation dub for what it is, that they simply aren't watching the same show, it isn't a faithful adaption of the original, it's a clusterfuck of half explained concepts and populated by lifeless inconsistent characters, to the point where dub fans have to use terminology from the original Japanese version to explain things, because the dub simply just doesn't address it.

Like Bukujutsu which is the reason why they can fly in the first place and is mentioned nowhere in the dub.

[Captain Awesome]

Like Bukujutsu which is the reason why they can fly in the first place and is mentioned nowhere in the dub.

The whole concept of Ki isn't even addressed, everyone has super powers "Just because", FUNimation didn't have to refer to it as Ki, but ignoring the concept all together made absolutely no sense whatsoever, and stripped the series of a lot of it's depth.

Because we all know that explaining why the characters have super powers is bad for ratings.

[Chrono Trigger]

Well like Kunzait said the show was being aimed at kids who don't care about all that technical stuff.

[Raki]

Well like Kunzait said the show was being aimed at kids who don't care about all that technical stuff.

But Funi could have put that there. The kids would have been like "Oh, that's how they can do stuff like that" or "Oh, this is what happened". Children aren't as stupid or brain dead as most people think. All you have to do is rightly explain things to them, and they know what's going on.

[Vekurotto]

What did they even say when Tenshinhan and Chaozu were flying at the 22nd Budokai? Better yet what did Kuririn and Tenshinhan say when Goku came out of the air and smashed Piccolo out of the ring at the 23rd Budokai? Because I know that's when they scream, "Bukujutsu!!' in the original because it's a technique and Goku was...using...the...technique.

I'm thinking they probably didn't explain it too well even though I don't know the answer because I remember when Gohan was teaching Videl how to fly that they really confused the holy hell out of me. When all it was was that you just use Ki to push yourself up. Which was a lot simpler and more well explained than what they said in the dub

[JulieYBM]

I'm pretty sure 'energy' is used in place of ki and also because they're 'martial artists'.

[Kaboom]

Well like Kunzait said the show was being aimed at kids who don't care about all that technical stuff.

But Funi could have put that there. The kids would have been like "Oh, that's how they can do stuff like that" or "Oh, this is what happened". Children aren't as stupid or brain dead as most people think. All you have to do is rightly explain things to them, and they know what's going on.

Precisely. As a kid watching the 90's Spider-Man, I was all up in the genetics with the lizard and explanations about how his web-shooters work and all that. Granted, I was kind of a nerd even at that age, but still, I wasn't put off by it at all; rather, I was kind of fascinated.

[Vekurotto]

Well like Kunzait said the show was being aimed at kids who don't care about all that technical stuff.

But Funi could have put that there. The kids would have been like "Oh, that's how they can do stuff like that" or "Oh, this is what happened". Children aren't as stupid or brain dead as most people think. All you have to do is rightly explain things to them, and they know what's going on.

Precisely. As a kid watching the 90's Spider-Man, I was all up in the genetics with the lizard and explanations about how his web-shooters work and all that. Granted, I was kind of a nerd even at that age, but still, I wasn't put off by it at all; rather, I was kind of fascinated.

I think he was being sarcastic guys.

[NeptuneKai]

*brain explodes*

Even though Funi took an axe to DBZ, I'm on one level grateful for them taking it up, because all anime was relegated to the niche market, I probably never would have seen it or ever been a fan today.

Yes you would have, if it wasn't for Funi picking it up someone else would have and it probably would have been a more competent dub at that, I can't see how the dub of DBZ can get any worse then it is right now.

[Rocketman]

I can't see how the dub of DBZ can get any worse then it is.

Harmony Gold.

[Super Sonic]

Also remember, money makes the world go round.

[NeptuneKai]

I can't see how the dub of DBZ can get any worse then it is.

Harmony Gold.

Well that's DB, the Dragonball dub was actually worth some respect.

Oh and that was a fucking awesome rant, which I actually saved.

[Herms]

Like Bukujutsu :P which is the reason why they can fly in the first place and is mentioned nowhere in the dub.

They did a reasonably good job of dubbing Gohan's explanation of Bukujutsu to Videl. They just used "energy" instead of "ki", which is a substitution done in the original as well (it's the term Babidi and Kaioshin use for "ki", for instance).

What did they even say when Tenshinhan and Chaozu were flying at the 22nd Budokai? Better yet what did Kuririn and Tenshinhan say when Goku came out of the air and smashed Piccolo out of the ring at the 23rd Budokai?

I haven't seen the dub of the 22nd TB, but when Tenshinhan flies down from his ship to confront Piccolo, in the dub Piccolo says something like "You know the levitation technique, so you must have some training under your belt." I actually have seen the dub of the 23rd TB, but I don't remember how the handled that scene where Goku Bukujutsu's Piccolo out of the ring.

Well like Kunzait said the show was being aimed at kids who don't care about all that technical stuff. :lol:

But there have always been pretty young kids who will go really in-depth into all those power levels and "who would win" arguements, which could be considered technical stuff.

[bkev]

I think that DragonBall (non-z) got a decent dub. Not at all by any stretch perfect, but it was definitely stronger than Z's dub. I remember as a kid, I always preferred it to DBZ.

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Gozar]

Oh boy… I’m probably going to piss a lot of people off with this post… I’m probably even going to burn a few bridges that I’ve recently built with a few fellow Diazexers. But I can’t help it. I have to call bullshit where I see it. It’s inherently wired into the very fabric of my being.

*Loud Impressed Whistle*...Man what a post you made. When I first read it a few hours ago I basically skimmed it and realized I'd have to come back to it later due to not having the time to give a good reply...But I have to say, I don't really think your post if going to piss anyone off. Because it was highly intelligent and respectful.

But before I rebuttal some of your comments I'd first like to say something. I in NO WAY think that your opinions are without justification. In fact your dislike of the Dub is 100% justified and I have no problem with your opinions on it. HOWEVER, I do disagree with you saying that the 2 are not really the same in the end and a few of the points you made. Yes there are differences...But well...I guess we'll get into that in a moment.

One other comment I'd like to make is...In the end...I view FUNi's DBZ as an alternate take on the same thing.

1) They rewrote the entire script of every single episode literally from scratch, taking only the barest minimum of plot from the original (sometimes even less than that) and making the rest up entirely out of their own collective asses as they went along. As a result…

I think you're being a bit too harsh here...The 2 are different but not to the point where they are not even recognizable as the same series. The plot elements are kept intact and the core personalities of most characters are as well.

2) The entire basic overall core of numerous plot threads (including the whole concept behind all the superhuman feats we see routinely in literally every single episode of the entire goddamn series) and whole character backgrounds are completely muddled into utter incoherence and make absolutely no fucking sense whatsoever without piggybacking information off the Japanese version (which explains all these details clearly and coherently in it’s script).

All the fantasy elements of the whole series are completely gone, including any sort of reference to anything remotely supernatural or mythological/religious, apart from maybe Babidi being a wizard as well as the nature of the Dragon Balls themselves. As a result, try explaining the whole Kami/Piccolo Daimao/Piccolo Ma Junior storyline or even what the hell the Kaios/Kais are supposed to be… using nothing but the information provided in the dub script and have it make any sort of logical/coherent sense. I dare you. Literally everything that was in any way non-sci-fi was stamped out so thoroughly that the vast majority of Wikipedia users flat out refuse to list the series’ genre as being any sort of fantasy, maintaining that it is strictly sci-fi.

I really don't understand your point here. They replace discussion of Ki simply with the word Energy and explain that it comes from your energy within morphed into a physical manifestation. As for the gods...Just because they're not called "Gods" doesn't change what their purpose is in the Dub.

I'm not going to bother hitting up your comments on the Music. It's way to subjective and I don't really care to get into a Musical discussion. All I will say is that different Music doesn't change what's happening like script changes do. I mean it's not like the characters can actually HEAR the music themselves. So what's it really matter if they choose to americanize the music?

There’s Goku of course, who’s totally NOT the same character in any way whatsoever, at least during the Z portion of the series. I’m sorry, but the Captain America speeches do in fact undermine everything that the character embodies in the original. Goku is, at his core, still basically a child in an adult’s body with a decidedly childlike view on things. The “heroic” monologues and speeches he’s given reflect none of that in the slightest and in essence actually works towards stamping out that aspect of his character entirely. If that weren’t the case, you’d be hearing a LOT less dissatisfied opinions about this very much talked about aspect of his character here on Daizex.

You're right that there are changes to Goku. But the Dub does not xhange the core of Goku like you said. Goku is still very childlike and the dramatic speeches are toned down after Season 3 somewhat. What I said before I still believe in. The Original Goku DOES still give a speech from time to time. Funimation's are just very over the top. Funimation did not completely change the Goku character but rather altered him. They took a smaller prt of his personality and heightened it. Again, I'm not disagreeing with your dislike. I just think you're being TOO harsh.

I'm going to say something similar for the Piccolo, Kaio-sama & Recoome thing. They took a smaller part of their personalities and enhanced them in the Dub.

Vegeta’s in a similar boat to Piccolo. There’s absolutely no subtlety to his character in the least in the dub, which is especially pronounced in that infamous extended sequence of his staggeringly different reactions and general attitude around the other characters while they’re moving in to get a glimpse of Cyborg Freeza and King Cold. He truly is a totally different character from the way he’s written and performed in the original in too many numerous instances to list.

Vegeta on the other hand I view similarly to Piccolo however not quite in the same way. Rather than taking a more minute aspect of his personality and upping it. Funimation took a more dominant aspect of Vegeta's personality. The angry part and upped it. So I wouldn't really consider Dub Vegeta as out of character moments. But rather, exaggerated.

I'm going to say something similar for the Nappa & Bulma charactersthing.

I'm sorry to not address each character individually. But I feel that I'd simply become redundant in what I said and I don't really want that.

Then there’s Kuririn, who has an entire and absurdly long running character beat of him being a hopeless romantic who wants desperately to fall in love with and get married to the girl of his dreams being COMPLETELTY removed entirely from nearly every single solitary time that it’s ever brought up prior to 18’s appearance for absolutely no good goddamn reason whatsoever. This alters the tone of his character dramatically, helping (along with numerous other alterations and aspects of how his character is presented in the dub) to reduce him into little more than a shitty, second rate sidekick who’s only there to crack bad jokes (that he never cracks in the original to begin with) with very little, if close to none, of the character’s natural affableness that was genuinely earned in the original.

I'm sorry but you make it seem like his desire to get married is come major portion of his character. It's really just a small time to time joke, I wouldn't really consider it a major trait of his. Though the whole never had a girlfriend thing IS referenced in the Dub in the start of the Saiya-jin Saga as well as Movie 4. So it's not entirely removed.

Again I feel I must stress... I am not in any way attempting to say your feelings are incorrect. I'm just saying I think your views may be too harsh due to your bias. AS WELL as my own views likely being too soft due to my own bias.

I’d be lying if I said that Daizex isn’t in fact the very first place I’ve ever come across in my near 15 year history as a Dragon Ball fan that has smart and well spoken post-Ocean FUNimation dub fans who think with more than just the brain stem. And as tremendously cool as it is to know you guys are around out there and as wonderful a pleasure it's been meeting and shooting the shit with all of you and hearing your incredibly nuanced thoughts and what you have to say about any number of interesting topics.... you guys are definitely in a vast minority amongst the typical dub viewers that I've ever come across who are generally speaking made up of guys like Xyex is talking about here.

LOL, funny thing is. If we weren't specifically talking about the Dub, you probably would never guess I was a Dub fan. I'm the first person who will say to someone "No that was a Dub line" or "No that was a result of Filler". I'd say my truest love for the Dub lies in the Voice cast and not the scripting. Though I am a fan of their changes some times.

or at the very least a grossly disingenuous sentiment that completely disregards a lot of big fat pink elephants in the room.

Um...I have no clye what this means.

If the “core” that you describe somehow was left intact in the dub, there just wouldn’t be the sort of discussions going on that there are, and that list I made up top would be a LOT shorter, a LOT less detailed, and would have a FUCKTON less bullshit left in reserve that I didn’t even bother to go into for brevity’s sake.

Again I disagree here. I think you are I view the core of the series as 2 different things. The Dub removes many of the more subtle elements. But the core of each plot and the core of each character I feel are left intact. Now again I say that I don't disagree with the fact that some characters were also screwed with beyond all recognition. Freeza is my prime example of distaste. I also think even the direction on Freeza was terrible. I mean I feel terrible for Linda Young with how much backlash she gets. But the problem is, even when she is given a line that is similar to the Original. She delivers it in a way that's just not very believable. I blame the director for this.

I mean when watching cut scenes in BURST LIMIT during the Goku/Freeza fight. Sean Schemmel just seems to hit every line perfectly while Linda Young's deliveries are insanely off.

And no matter how intelligent the dub fan, at the end of the day whether they want to admit to it or not, they’re still a fan of something that’s been grievously dumbed down from what it originally started out as. There’s nothing inherently BAD about that in and of itself, and I’ve known any number of perfectly smart people who are into any number of dumb things just cause they enjoy it (it’s one of life’s great little pleasures I’m sure we can all agree, and I’m certainly as guilty as the next person)… but they also have no illusions about the fact that it IS still something that is inherently dumb at the end of the day.

I actually can't help but agree that the Dub is quite dumbed down. What I find funny is how I will always just like right now defend the Dub in every way. Despite the fact that when it comes to character personalities and scripts. I'm basically no nonsense in discussions when it comes to referencing the Dub. Now in my own little world on the other hand...I guess it's like you said. I still like the Dub soley because I enjoy the heck out of it. To paraphrase a really bad Dub line...

"It is something that resembles great joy to me."

Liking one or the other more makes no never mind to me… but what DOES irk me is simply denying that the difference is there, or in the case of Gozar’s post (for al it's admirable intentions and sentiment) denying that it’s as intensely severe and impossible to overlook as it is. Cause then the argument has nothing to do with opinion and personal taste so much as it does one side not being honest with themselves about the cold and simple reality of the situation at hand.

I have to say. I think that the intensity the changes that the Dub made is also subjective. I mean I know you're going to disagree with me on this, but I truly believe that every Z-Arc minus the entire Namek/Freeza Arc is close enough to resemble one another. Every time in your post that you say it's too unrecognizable (or at least something along those lines). I immediately picture Namek. On the flip side I think the Buu Era was by far the most faithful adaption of any Z Arc.

Yeah… even I feel like a piece of shit now having said all that, considering how deeply heartfelt and genuine Gozar’s intentions seemed to be. I’m really sorry to have laced into your post like that, especially since I really do feel where you’re coming from overall and you sound like a totally nice person… but like I said, speaking out when I disagree with something without holding anything back is just inherently wired into me.

Hey don't worry about it...I can respect stern disagreement when it's done intelligently like you did. I guess that's the same way you view Dub fans.

[MajinVejitaXV]

All I will say is that different Music doesn't change what's happening like script changes do. I mean it's not like the characters can actually HEAR the music themselves. So what's it really matter if they choose to americanize the music?

Respectfully, I disagree. Take this scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt5Z54L6efo

Now, replace it with circus music (In your head, I'm not actually going to redub it ). Sure, the characters don't hear it, but it changes the tone of the scene, no?

Goku is still very childlike and the dramatic speeches are toned down after Season 3 somewhat. What I said before I still believe in. The Original Goku DOES still give a speech from time to time.

Eh, Goku still gives speeches later on. I know he goes on a long, drawn out speech about how he and Vejita have to fuse later in the series (I didn't watch the series much past Majin Vejita so I don't remember any other occurances). Besides, when Japanese Goku gives anything resembling a speech, it tends to be...well, Goku-ish. It's not very articulate and while it's sincere, it's...chock full of mountain-raised goodness?

Funimation did not completely change the Goku character but rather altered him. They took a smaller prt of his personality and heightened it.

Well, both Gokus like to fight, that's a given. However, they definitely did shift the emphasis on Goku's personality from a naive, childlike man who loves to fight to a Superman-like persona who fights to save the world.

Vegeta on the other hand I view similarly to Piccolo however not quite in the same way. Rather than taking a more minute aspect of his personality and upping it. Funimation took a more dominant aspect of Vegeta's personality. The angry part and upped it. So I wouldn't really consider Dub Vegeta as out of character moments. But rather, exaggerated.

As a result, however, they made Vejita (and everyone else) much more 2D. Sure, DragonBall isn't the best example of well-rounded characters, however FUNimation took characters with some great attributes and chose a single trait to focus on while ignoring the others. Goku is the hero guy (ed. note: lawl, you is the hero guy! ), Piccolo is the big scary guy, Vejita is the angry guy, Gohan is the innocent kid/guy, Krillin is the bumbling sidekick, Bulma and Chi-Chi are the raging sacks of hormones, Nappa and Reacoom are the big dumb muscleheads...etc.

I'm sorry but you make it seem like his desire to get married is come major portion of his character. It's really just a small time to time joke, I wouldn't really consider it a major trait of his. Though the whole never had a girlfriend thing IS referenced in the Dub in the start of the Saiya-jin Saga as well as Movie 4. So it's not entirely removed.

He says it many, many times in the original. Freeza is basically killing him and one of the thoughts to go through his head as he is dying is that he'll never get married if memory serves. So, obviously it's an important part of his character which comes into play massively when the Jinzoningen come into the picture.

Um...I have no clye what this means.

It's a phrase that means you're ignoring something on purpose because it couldn't be ignored by chance, like an elephant in your living room.

That being said, I'm happy to see civil exchanges like this. It's nice to not resort to the kind of horrible degeneration that plagues other forums.

-Corey