Why do lots of people like Cell and Broly?

[Saiyan-Professor]

Vegeta EVER ending up so powerful in his base for so as to be able to destroy Freeza by sneezing is still ridiculous. Why even bother with Super Saiyan or transcending it when you'd end up that ludicrously powerful without it?

Something is needed to make up the difference when you are found lacking. Notice how Chibi Kakarrot and Trunks mostly fought in base form but when they were caught in a tight spot they transformed when they needed extra strength and then they would usually revert-back to their normal state (See the GT episodes when they fought Redgic and High Priest Mutchi Motchi). Take the instance when Vegeta fought Hell-fighter #17. He was amazed that Hell-fighter #17 could battle him so evenly in his base form. This was because his combat power in his normal state was most likely around DBZ Super Saiyan 2 or 3 levels. Then you have to take into account that the longer you remain in base form the less Ki is spent in fighting. It was inevitable that Kakarrot and Vegeta realized that the smart thing to do was to build their base combat power up and use the transformations as a contingency measure.

[Kaboom]

You really can't take GT into account with any of this kind of stuff, especially not with the very-underpowered Trunks, Vegeta, and everyone else who wasn't Goku. The creators a lot of the time really had no idea what they were doing, and took the way powers were set up in Z into very little, if any at all, consideration.

Base forms just don't get that strong. On Namek, Goku and Vegeta were already pushing the very limits of how much power they could naturally gain, and that was through insane-sized zenkais. Everything after that was reliant on the Super Saiyan, which upon achieving, replaced and made the massive, hundred-thousands-at-a-time zenkais go away (one of the guidebooks supports that, as if the manga didn't make it obvious enough).

When Super Saiyan wasn't enough, they didn't rely on more zenkais or training to pump another couple thousand PLs into their base form so that Super Saiyan would multiply THAT further; the only route they could effectively take was, "we have to surpass the normal Super Saiyan!" Or, "we have to combine our power together through Fusion!" The old methods and rates of growing in power were gone, and new paths had to be blazed.

[Saiyan-Professor]

You really can't take GT into account with any of this kind of stuff, especially not with the very-underpowered Trunks, Vegeta, and everyone else who wasn't Goku. The creators a lot of the time really had no idea what they were doing, and took the way powers were set up in Z into very little, if any at all, consideration.

Base forms just don't get that strong. On Namek, Goku and Vegeta were already pushing the very limits of how much power they could naturally gain, and that was through insane-sized zenkais. Everything after that was reliant on the Super Saiyan, which upon achieving, replaced and made the massive, hundred-thousands-at-a-time zenkais go away (one of the guidebooks supports that, as if the manga didn't make it obvious enough).

When Super Saiyan wasn't enough, they didn't rely on more zenkais or training to pump another couple thousand PLs into their base form so that Super Saiyan would multiply THAT further; the only route they could effectively take was, "we have to surpass the normal Super Saiyan!" Or, "we have to combine our power together through Fusion!" The old methods and rates of growing in power were gone, and new paths had to be blazed.

I am not talking about near-death experiences; I am referring to training and the growth that comes from said training. The Daizenshus focused on Dragonball and Z, what does the Dragonball GT Perfect Files have to say about the issue since we are talking about a whole other era/show (I seriously want to know because I have not seen too many comments on this board about them).

In addition, I view GT as the actual continuation of the story regardless if whether it is the manga or the anime so naturally you and I (amongst others) will disagree on certain points.

[Wojak]

You really can't take GT into account with any of this kind of stuff, especially not with the very-underpowered Trunks, Vegeta, and everyone else who wasn't Goku. The creators a lot of the time really had no idea what they were doing, and took the way powers were set up in Z into very little, if any at all, consideration.

Base forms just don't get that strong. On Namek, Goku and Vegeta were already pushing the very limits of how much power they could naturally gain, and that was through insane-sized zenkais. Everything after that was reliant on the Super Saiyan, which upon achieving, replaced and made the massive, hundred-thousands-at-a-time zenkais go away (one of the guidebooks supports that, as if the manga didn't make it obvious enough).

When Super Saiyan wasn't enough, they didn't rely on more zenkais or training to pump another couple thousand PLs into their base form so that Super Saiyan would multiply THAT further; the only route they could effectively take was, "we have to surpass the normal Super Saiyan!" Or, "we have to combine our power together through Fusion!" The old methods and rates of growing in power were gone, and new paths had to be blazed.

I am not talking about near-death experiences; I am referring to training and the growth that comes from said training. The Daizenshus focused on Dragonball and Z, what does the Dragonball GT Perfect Files have to say about the issue since we are talking about a whole other era/show (I seriously want to know because I have not seen too many comments on this board about them).

In addition, I view GT as the actual continuation of the story regardless if whether it is the manga or the anime so naturally you and I (amongst others) will disagree on certain points.

Okay, in which case, your theory is contradicted in the main DBZ storyline.
If Base power can still be raised so much, and SSJ is not in fact the main source for more strength, how come Goku and Gohan didn't stay another day in the ROSAT?

Goku himself told that another day wouldn't make a big difference on their levels, which can be lead to that Goku knew that they had reached about the maximum of their base powerlevel, and also what they then thought was the highest level of SSJ: Mastered Super Saiyan.
It was not until Gohan's SSJ2 transformation they understood that there was more levels of SSJ to achieve.

If Gohan fought Dabura as a SSJ, and Dabura was as strong as Perfect Cell, it makes great sense that their level was even. Gohan was around the level of Dabura and put a good fight, but still he was a bit weaker.
If not weakened by not training, Gohan would win.

Sure Goku and the others got stronger in Namek, but that would be as smart to compare the Red Ribbon Saga Goku with Buu Saga Goku.

Goku and the others were near their limit of power, and that's why Goku even thought of trying to reach the SSJ3 level, even though he didn't knowif it was possible.
If he was gaining power so quickly as you say, he would have sticked with SSJ2, as it's a more stable state to fight in.

DBGT is something I can't even dissect, as I find it contradicting. And I have watched the whole DBGT series too. And it was a mess powerlevel-wise.
Maybe you find a red line there, but I don't.

[Saiyan-Professor]

You really can't take GT into account with any of this kind of stuff, especially not with the very-underpowered Trunks, Vegeta, and everyone else who wasn't Goku. The creators a lot of the time really had no idea what they were doing, and took the way powers were set up in Z into very little, if any at all, consideration.

Base forms just don't get that strong. On Namek, Goku and Vegeta were already pushing the very limits of how much power they could naturally gain, and that was through insane-sized zenkais. Everything after that was reliant on the Super Saiyan, which upon achieving, replaced and made the massive, hundred-thousands-at-a-time zenkais go away (one of the guidebooks supports that, as if the manga didn't make it obvious enough).

When Super Saiyan wasn't enough, they didn't rely on more zenkais or training to pump another couple thousand PLs into their base form so that Super Saiyan would multiply THAT further; the only route they could effectively take was, "we have to surpass the normal Super Saiyan!" Or, "we have to combine our power together through Fusion!" The old methods and rates of growing in power were gone, and new paths had to be blazed.

I am not talking about near-death experiences; I am referring to training and the growth that comes from said training. The Daizenshus focused on Dragonball and Z, what does the Dragonball GT Perfect Files have to say about the issue since we are talking about a whole other era/show (I seriously want to know because I have not seen too many comments on this board about them).

In addition, I view GT as the actual continuation of the story regardless if whether it is the manga or the anime so naturally you and I (amongst others) will disagree on certain points.

Okay, in which case, your theory is contradicted in the main DBZ storyline.
If Base power can still be raised so much, and SSJ is not in fact the main source for more strength, how come Goku and Gohan didn't stay another day in the ROSAT?

Goku himself told that another day wouldn't make a big difference on their levels, which can be lead to that Goku knew that they had reached about the maximum of their base powerlevel, and also what they then thought was the highest level of SSJ: Mastered Super Saiyan.
It was not until Gohan's SSJ2 transformation they understood that there was more levels of SSJ to achieve.

If Gohan fought Dabura as a SSJ, and Dabura was as strong as Perfect Cell, it makes great sense that their level was even. Gohan was around the level of Dabura and put a good fight, but still he was a bit weaker.
If not weakened by not training, Gohan would win.

Sure Goku and the others got stronger in Namek, but that would be as smart to compare the Red Ribbon Saga Goku with Buu Saga Goku.

Goku and the others were near their limit of power, and that's why Goku even thought of trying to reach the SSJ3 level, even though he didn't knowif it was possible.
If he was gaining power so quickly as you say, he would have sticked with SSJ2, as it's a more stable state to fight in.

DBGT is something I can't even dissect, as I find it contradicting. And I have watched the whole DBGT series too. And it was a mess powerlevel-wise.
Maybe you find a red line there, but I don't.

To me I believe the fight against Pui Pui demonstrates that their base power can be raised higher than it was following the Freeza Saga. As I had mentioned in another thread I think that many here had presented a very good argument for the Majin to have a combat power higher than Freeza’s and as we well know Vegeta beat him in his normal state. Concerning Full-Power Super Saiyan I, would have to agree with the Daizenshu EX staff where we read in the Transformations Guide.

The term "Super Saiyan Full Power" is coined in the second daizenshuu (it appears nowhere in the manga). It also notes that Goku's aura, while his Super Saiyan power is drawn out to its limits, is "different." There is no indication that either Goku and/or Gohan have reached their "maximum power" while in this stage; in fact, that's quite an outlandish claim to make. There is always room for improvement. Goku and Gohan do indeed grow stronger with time, pushing the Super Saiyan stage to its limits time and time again.

http://www.daizex.com/guides/transforma ... full_power

From the context of the discussion, it appears that Kakarrot knew that extra training in the Room of Space and Time would be useless because he could not close that gap between Cell and himself even with the additional training. He was already putting his hopes in Son Gohan because he knew that he had the best shot of wining. I just reviewed the manga and I did not walk away with the any of the notions that you are positing.

The Son Gohan and Dabra fight just does not make any sense if Son Gohan was fighting Dabra as just a Super Saiyan 1. It would be flat out idiotic and suicidal to fight someone with Dabra’s combat power and not use your full strength especially when you are weaker from lack of training.

Since we have really gone off topic I recommend that we make a separate thread if you would like to continue this discussion. But then again if we are going off of two different norms (DBZ and GT) on this issue I really do not see how we can eventually come to a satisfactory end to the conversation.

Addendum: Or we can move it to the GT thread.

[Rocketman]

The Son Gohan and Dabra fight just does not make any sense if Son Gohan was fighting Dabra as just a Super Saiyan 1. It would be flat out idiotic and suicidal to fight someone with Dabra’s combat power and not use your full strength especially when you are weaker from lack of training.

Yes, but what you're forgetting is that Gohan is an idiot.

[Saiyan-Professor]

The Son Gohan and Dabra fight just does not make any sense if Son Gohan was fighting Dabra as just a Super Saiyan 1. It would be flat out idiotic and suicidal to fight someone with Dabra’s combat power and not use your full strength especially when you are weaker from lack of training.

Yes, but what you're forgetting is that Gohan is an idiot.

If that is the case then why are there so many fans of Son Gohan in the Dragonball community? Individuals like me are made fun of for liking the Broli character and are called a 9-12 year old but at least he can fight and he knows when to use his full power (well some will debate this point when you think about the incident with the Toei Punch).

[Forgotten Hero]

Yes, but what you're forgetting is that Gohan is an idiot.

YOO!!!
jk


I know I like Cell, early on, because he had to sneak around to get more power. Cell was smart. He knew that he couldn't beat 17, 18, or the newly fused Piccolo. So absorbs more humans. That is why I like him.

Brolly...I always thought that was a dubby thing.

[Gorrilian]

I like Broly because he reminds me that there is nothing wrong with being silly and over the top. He kind of acts as an inspiration to my writing. I guess that the same would go for Marvel characters if I ever started reading American comic books. The way that my cousin describes them to me, I never knew the suspension of disbelief could be stretched so far.

[Captain Awesome]

Brolly...I always thought that was a dubby thing.

Same here, I always thought he appealed to the "It's just like wrestling!" portion of dub fans.

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Herms]

Not to mention there must have been a fairly sizable number of Broli fans among the Japanese fan base back when the series was still ongoing, since they brought the guy back for two movies and all. I can't imagine they would have done that if he wasn't popular.

[Forgotten Hero]

Not to mention there must have been a fairly sizable number of Broli fans among the Japanese fan base back when the series was still ongoing, since they brought the guy back for two movies and all. I can't imagine they would have done that if he wasn't popular.

True, but I think the Japanese like Brolly of different reason than dub fans.
Dub fans today, we aren't in 1994 anymore, like Brolly because...Well...He is so strong and so giant. I think the A typical 12 year old dub fan likes the obvious powerful characters. What is more obvious than a invincible tank like Brolly? No one, except SSJ3 Goku or Vegetto. But those two don't show up until way later.

So I see what you guys are saying, and I think you are right. But this is how I believe current dub fans think about Brolly.

[SSJ2bardock]

Basically anything with golden hair appeals to Forgotten Hero's typical 12 year old fan, it's as if the other races don't exist

[Krakabeast]

Not to mention there must have been a fairly sizable number of Broli fans among the Japanese fan base back when the series was still ongoing, since they brought the guy back for two movies and all. I can't imagine they would have done that if he wasn't popular.

True, but I think the Japanese like Brolly of different reason than dub fans.
Dub fans today, we aren't in 1994 anymore, like Brolly because...Well...He is so strong and so giant. I think the A typical 12 year old dub fan likes the obvious powerful characters. What is more obvious than a invincible tank like Brolly? No one, except SSJ3 Goku or Vegetto. But those two don't show up until way later.

So I see what you guys are saying, and I think you are right. But this is how I believe current dub fans think about Brolly.

Well, that was my reason. I watched movie 8 (Japanese) around 1996-97. Now, more than 10 years later, that's still how Broly is appealed to me.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Basically anything with golden hair appeals to Forgotten Hero's typical 12 year old fan, it's as if the other races don't exist

I guess Toriyama is a 12 year old because he was the one that focused the attention away from the humans and onto the Saiyans.

I like Broli because he is a beast and I appreciate how is not like the other Saiyans. No code of honor in any fashion, he just loves to fight and decimate his opponents. He also has a psychological appeal to many because there are times in our lives where we are so angry we wish we could lash out at the world in the same fashion as Broli.

[SSJ2bardock]

Basically anything with golden hair appeals to Forgotten Hero's typical 12 year old fan, it's as if the other races don't exist

I guess Toriyama is a 12 year old because he was the one that focused the attention away from the humans and onto the Saiyans.

I thought we were talking about the way the show is marketed to the American audience.

[MajinVejitaXV]

I think the appeal of Broli, in his first appearance at least, was just his title: The Legendary Super Saiyajin. I mean, it was rather ingenious to explore the possibility, it was just overused. Had Broli only appeared in movie 8, I doubt he'd be so hated.

And yeah, it was probably the most widely circulated bootleg. I first saw it in 1999 and it was probably the easiest movie to find (in not too bad a quality for the time, at that).

-Corey

[Kaboom]

I think the appeal of Broli, in his first appearance at least, was just his title: The Legendary Super Saiyajin. I mean, it was rather ingenious to explore the possibility, it was just overused. Had Broli only appeared in movie 8, I doubt he'd be so hated.

Precisely the way I see it. Movie 8 is a very cool film (and one of the better-dubbed ones, at that), and Broly himself is a pretty interesting and fun character in it. His other two movies could have just as easily been done with different or new villains.

[JulieYBM]

I think the appeal of Broli, in his first appearance at least, was just his title: The Legendary Super Saiyajin. I mean, it was rather ingenious to explore the possibility, it was just overused. Had Broli only appeared in movie 8, I doubt he'd be so hated.

Precisely the way I see it. Movie 8 is a very cool film (and one of the better-dubbed ones, at that), and Broly himself is a pretty interesting and fun character in it. His other two movies could have just as easily been done with different or new villains.

'Better dubbed' = what happens when Chris Sabat writes the ADR script?!