Where Do the Saiyans Come From?

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Where Do the Saiyans Come From?

Post by Sprite Satan » Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:46 pm

Let's hope this initial statement is correct otherwise this will be a real short first topic from 16-bit champion of the world.

According to the DB timeline (Daizenshuu #7, I think. Give me a break, I'm rusty.)...
Approximately 550 A.D.
The first Saiyans land on the planet Plant in a mysterious ship.
So, the Saiyans landed on planet Plant and in under 200 years conquered the planet, naming it Vegeta. They grabbed the Tsufuru's technology and barely made it into space before trading their services for technology, which quickly became a master-slave relationship with Freeza's empire.

But where did these Saiyan come from originally? What is the "mysterious ship"? It is highly unlikely there was anything published about it, but it still might be fun and productive to theorise about.

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Post by Dayspring » Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:14 pm

That tidbit is taken from the OVA, so I wouldn't think too much of it. Note that the OVA is part movie 3, 4, and 5 continuity, and takes place after the Cell Games, but Goku is alive and SSJ1 is as high as everybody goes.
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Post by Terra-jin » Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:52 pm

Ah, this is one of those things from the Daizenshuu that I just don't agree with. In my preference, the Saiyans were raised on planet Vegeta along with the Tsufuru-jin, and wiped them out before long. However, they didn't get the scouters and spacepods from them; only when Freeza discovers them can the Saiyans get to outer space.

But if you do follow the Daizenshuu on this, I guess the Saiyans could've come from anywhere. It had to be a similar planet to Vegeta-sei, since the Saiyans seem right at home at 10.G.
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Post by SSj_Rambo » Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:09 pm

Going with the Daizenshuu timeline/canonical universe, there is no information on what planet the Saiya-jins came from before getting to Planet Plant...or what planet they were on before that.

The thing is, we don't know how many planets the Saiya-jins have lived on, we just know that it has been at least two.

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Post by Saiyan-Professor » Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:11 pm

Terra-jin wrote:Ah, this is one of those things from the Daizenshuu that I just don't agree with. In my preference, the Saiyans were raised on planet Vegeta along with the Tsufuru-jin, and wiped them out before long. However, they didn't get the scouters and spacepods from them; only when Freeza discovers them can the Saiyans get to outer space.

But if you do follow the Daizenshuu on this, I guess the Saiyans could've come from anywhere. It had to be a similar planet to Vegeta-sei, since the Saiyans seem right at home at 10.G.
Some time ago in a thread pertaining to the movies someone recommended that only certain aspects of the movies and now OVA played out in the main continuity just not in the fashion we have in the movies, that is a manner in which they would fit the time line. Take for example:
Circa Age 720~730: On Planet Plant, the Saiya-jin unite and start a revolt. They rush into all-out war with the Tsuru-jin. The Saiya-jin overwhelm the Tsuru-jin. The Tsuru-jin scientist Dr. Raichi dies. The Saiya-jin extermination weapon, Hatred Amplification Device Hatchi-Hyakku is launched into space. The Tsuru-jin are wiped out. The Saiya-jin take complete control of Planet Plant, and change its name to Planet Vegeta. At the same time, they absorb Tsuru-jin technology, such as the scouter. The Saiya-jin begin setting out into space. The Saiya-jin hit upon the idea of having other aliens sponsor their wars.
That is all that it states concerning the OVA material.
The Saiyans are very much like the Klingons and Jem'Hadar.

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Post by Conan the SSJ » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:50 pm

Maybe their original planet was the one destroyed by the original Legendary Super Saiyan, as seen in Vegeta's Namek saga flashback, so they wandered in space for centuries before settling on Plant? Speculation, of course. "Of course not, Conan; it's filler and therefore never ever happens in a million years 'cause Toriyama didn't touch it with a 10 inch pink feather, gazarrrr!!" Really, let's try not to turn this into another canon debate. >>;
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Post by Saiyan-Professor » Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:28 pm

Conan the SSJ wrote:Maybe their original planet was the one destroyed by the original Legendary Super Saiyan, as seen in Vegeta's Namek saga flashback, so they wandered in space for centuries before settling on Plant? Speculation, of course. "Of course not, Conan; it's filler and therefore never ever happens in a million years 'cause Toriyama didn't touch it with a 10 inch pink feather, gazarrrr!!" Really, let's try not to turn this into another canon debate. >>;
You know I do not have a problem with your theory and it seems very plausible. Actually, the (the twisted and evil :twisted: ) filler segment shows the Legendary Super Saiyan fighting some of the planet’s inhabitant’s right before he loses control and the planet blows up.
The Saiyans are very much like the Klingons and Jem'Hadar.

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Post by Kaboom » Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:49 pm

Conan the SSJ wrote:Maybe their original planet was the one destroyed by the original Legendary Super Saiyan, as seen in Vegeta's Namek saga flashback, so they wandered in space for centuries before settling on Plant? Speculation, of course. "Of course not, Conan; it's filler and therefore never ever happens in a million years 'cause Toriyama didn't touch it with a 10 inch pink feather, gazarrrr!!" Really, let's try not to turn this into another canon debate. >>;
That's exactly what I'm working with for my GT Rewrite fanfic, since a lot of Tuffle/Saiyan backstory will be required eventually. 'Cept there may have been history between the Tuffles and Saiyans even further back...

Yeah, I'll get to that point in the story in about 20 years, I'd say.
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Post by Saiyan-Professor » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:02 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:
Conan the SSJ wrote:Maybe their original planet was the one destroyed by the original Legendary Super Saiyan, as seen in Vegeta's Namek saga flashback, so they wandered in space for centuries before settling on Plant? Speculation, of course. "Of course not, Conan; it's filler and therefore never ever happens in a million years 'cause Toriyama didn't touch it with a 10 inch pink feather, gazarrrr!!" Really, let's try not to turn this into another canon debate. >>;
That's exactly what I'm working with for my GT Rewrite fanfic, since a lot of Tuffle/Saiyan backstory will be required eventually. 'Cept there may have been history between the Tuffles and Saiyans even further back...

Yeah, I'll get to that point in the story in about 20 years, I'd say.
I believe about 200 years worth of back history according to the Daizenshuu timeline.
The Saiyans are very much like the Klingons and Jem'Hadar.

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Post by Herms » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:42 pm

It's worth pointing out that the thing with the Saiyans arriving on Planet Vegeta on a spaceship and the other stuff from the OVA is only mentioned in the anime guide daizenshuu and Daizenshuu 7, which is the only one to cover both the manga and anime. I don't know if Toriyama had a hand in that part of the Saiyan backstory, but the other bits of early history with the Saiyans and Tsufuru were concieved of by him for the anime, and he did come up with the original name of Planet Vegeta being "Planet Plant". That's all from the memo Toriyama made for the anime staff, which was printed in Daizenshuu 5 and DBZ Son Goku Densetsu.
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Post by Saiyan-Professor » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:41 am

Herms wrote:It's worth pointing out that the thing with the Saiyans arriving on Planet Vegeta on a spaceship and the other stuff from the OVA is only mentioned in the anime guide daizenshuu and Daizenshuu 7, which is the only one to cover both the manga and anime. I don't know if Toriyama had a hand in that part of the Saiyan backstory, but the other bits of early history with the Saiyans and Tsufuru were concieved of by him for the anime, and he did come up with the original name of Planet Vegeta being "Planet Plant". That's all from the memo Toriyama made for the anime staff, which was printed in Daizenshuu 5 and DBZ Son Goku Densetsu.
I love it! For years, the purists dismissed the Tsufuruians as filler garbage because Toriyama had nothing to do with it but Herms has proven in one post that Akira Toriyama in fact had a hand in much of the material that was always wrote off. :lol:
The Saiyans are very much like the Klingons and Jem'Hadar.

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Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:46 am

Didn't he also write that the Tsufuru created the scouters? And that Saibaimen were created by Saiyan biotechnology (did he also say that a Saibaiman's power was greater in better soil, or was that just a random Daizenshuu tidbit?).
Saiyan-Professor wrote:
Herms wrote:It's worth pointing out that the thing with the Saiyans arriving on Planet Vegeta on a spaceship and the other stuff from the OVA is only mentioned in the anime guide daizenshuu and Daizenshuu 7, which is the only one to cover both the manga and anime. I don't know if Toriyama had a hand in that part of the Saiyan backstory, but the other bits of early history with the Saiyans and Tsufuru were concieved of by him for the anime, and he did come up with the original name of Planet Vegeta being "Planet Plant". That's all from the memo Toriyama made for the anime staff, which was printed in Daizenshuu 5 and DBZ Son Goku Densetsu.
I love it! For years, the purists dismissed the Tsufuruians as filler garbage because Toriyama had nothing to do with it but Herms has proven in one post that Akira Toriyama in fact had a hand in much of the material that was always wrote off. :lol:
People have known about this forever. It's from Daizenshuu 5.

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Post by Herms » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:30 am

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Didn't he also write that the Tsufuru created the scouters? And that Saibaimen were created by Saiyan biotechnology (did he also say that a Saibaiman's power was greater in better soil, or was that just a random Daizenshuu tidbit?).
Yeah, the scouter thing is from the same memo as the rest of the Tsufuru stuff. The thing about Saibaimen being a result of Saiyan biotechnology is from another one of Toriyama's memos, according to Daizenshuu 7's bio for the Saibaimen. I don't think the comment that the Saibaimen's power varies according to the soil is credited to any Toriyama memo, but it is sort of implied by Nappa's comment about them growing well in Earth's soil.
Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:People have known about this forever. It's from Daizenshuu 5.
I don't remember seeing that mentioned anywhere until Mike put it up in the "Toriyama had nothing to do with filler" entry in the rumor guide.
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Post by Super Ghost Kamikaze » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:33 am

I always had the impression that Toriyama's filler notes always had a tone of "Y'know, it'd be cool if this happened. That could be a fun side-story.", without much thought about continuity.

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Post by Herms » Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:02 am

Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:I always had the impression that Toriyama's filler notes always had a tone of "Y'know, it'd be cool if this happened. That could be a fun side-story.", without much thought about continuity.
Some of them seem to have been like that, but the Tsufuru/early Saiyan one is more explanatory. Well, here's the whole thing, so you can judge for yourself:
Planet Plant [crossed out in red with “Planet Vegeta” written in, but all other instances of “Planet Plant” are left untouched] is a difficult planet to live on, as its gravity is unusually strong. However, two races live here. The majority of the inhabitants of Planet Plant are Tsufuru. Their bodies are small, but knowledge-wise they have a comparatively advanced culture and civilization. The other race has an unusually small population, but their bodies are large and strong. They are a primitive, warlike race called the Saiyans. Their biggest distinguishing characteristic is that they have tails, and every one of them seems to be a warrior.

[Picture of Tsufuru, with scouter and blaster gun, labeled “Tsufuru-jin”. We see a colored version of this guy in DBZ episode 20 when Kaio introduces the Tsufuru] Due to the heavy gravity, they are about half as big as the Saiyans.

[arrow pointing to scouter on Tsufuru’s head] This scouter, for instance, and other such things were originally Tsufuru inventions.

[picture of three caveman-like Saiyans, all three of which ended up appearing in Kaio’s flashback] The Saiyans of long ago

[picture of the Saiyans’ rocky housing] The housing area that the ancient Saiyans lived in (perhaps more varied shapes might be good?)
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Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:09 am

Herms wrote:I don't think the comment that the Saibaimen's power varies according to the soil is credited to any Toriyama memo, but it is sort of implied by Nappa's comment about them growing well in Earth's soil.
You know, I'd totally forgotten about that line of Nappa's. I thought that information was exclusive to the Daizenshuu. :D
Herms wrote:I don't remember seeing that mentioned anywhere until Mike put it up in the "Toriyama had nothing to do with filler" entry in the rumor guide.
Really? I thought English-speaking fans had known about that for as long as people online had the Daizenshuu. Anyway, I was really just pointing out that this isn't brand new info.

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Post by Super Ghost Kamikaze » Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:39 am

Ah, that's good to know, Herms. A couple of the details seem to have that general vagueness in tone to them, but overall it seems pretty clear.

...

Is it possible that the Saiyans brought scouter technology to the Frieza empire?
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Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:53 am

I think that's really the only possibility. I mean, he flat out said that the scouters (i.e. the ones we see in the series) were Tsufuru inventions, so the Saiyans must have used them when they went around killing people. When they met Freeza and company, they must have shown them the scouters (leading to their mass production).

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Post by Terra-jin » Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:17 am

Huh... I always figured that the scouter was an invention of Freeza's empire. I still prefer it that way, in spite of Toriyama saying otherwise in his filler notes. To me, it just makes more sense, it'd seem that an empire that revolved around warriors would have long invented such a device.
On the other hand, the empire is shown to have zero knowledge about ki hiding, amplification, sensing and whatnot. If they are so advanced that they'd be able to mechanically sense ki, they should know about the other aspects of ki, as well. It's strange in itself that an entire empire knows nothing of those abilities while they're well-known on a dustball like Earth.
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Post by Super Ghost Kamikaze » Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:52 am

Terra-jin wrote:Huh... I always figured that the scouter was an invention of Freeza's empire. I still prefer it that way, in spite of Toriyama saying otherwise in his filler notes. To me, it just makes more sense, it'd seem that an empire that revolved around warriors would have long invented such a device.
On the other hand, the empire is shown to have zero knowledge about ki hiding, amplification, sensing and whatnot. If they are so advanced that they'd be able to mechanically sense ki, they should know about the other aspects of ki, as well. It's strange in itself that an entire empire knows nothing of those abilities while they're well-known on a dustball like Earth.
Well-known? We have basically two hermits, Crane and Turtle. They teach the ENTIRE set of earth warriors this, excepting one case where a Namekian bloodline apparently carries with it some instinctive knowledge about Ki.

And the "Earth warriors" is all of five people. Six if you count Gohan.

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