How strong are Goten and Trunks ?

[Yamcha_krillin]

Sounds like your using the anime as a reference. A lot of the stuff that you mentioned doesn't happen in the manga (such as 18 being overconfident, and her saying she needs to end the fight to protect the spectators). And its not that Trunks' blast couldn't kill her necessarily, because he says that he won't use full power in the blast.

Also, this whole thing about 18 not sensing power. I get that, but she obviously has some sort of comprehension of powerlevels. After the chi blast from Trunks she says "Are those two twits really that good". She's obviously referring to a particular level of power in her mind.

Besides, if Raditz came along an shot a chi blast at her, would she be saying the same thing? Don't think so.

18 did smile when they turned SSJ.Trunks didnt want to go in a hand to hand fight with her and then decided to use Ki blasts where he said that wont kill her.Then Goten told him not use a full power blast.

After she dodged that blast even after being caught off guard,Goten screamed at Trunks and told him to hit her with another faster and greater blast since the one they fired was not to enough to hit her even when she was caught off guard.

I was giving my opinion on why she ended the match and IMO it's because her daughter my get hurt and because Goten demonstarted that he isnt good at controlling his power wich she also saw,when he had his litlle match against Trunks.

She was fighting two kids who shot such a strong blast on a tournament match that completlly destroyed everything that it hit.They have so much power for such an age and in a real fight they might fire a blast or do something and accidentally kill someone.


I'm having this opinion just because she can't sense KI and because she doesn't have any way to know if someone is stronger then her or weaker.

Maybe she didnt expect them to be abel to create such a fast and such big blast,since they are kids.Wouldn't you be suprise if two kids fired such a big blast at you without you expecting that?

Remember, #18 can't suppress her power, since she's partially a robot. When she pulls back her punches, she has a very hard time doing it. This is proven when she has a hard time punching the punching machine lightly once, and when Goku starts getting on her ass, she says "Shut up, it's hard to control!"

Imagine how well she would fare tapping Mighty Mask lightly, multiple times, in succession. That tells us a lot.

It was Krillin not Goku.

How was she abel to hit the Jewel guy without killing him if she can't contol her power.How was she then also abel to hit the punching machine and make a score of 204 almost as much a Mr.Satan?

18 can hit as hard as she wants too.

[Rocketman]

I think there's something else we should consider too.

She's #18. Not a Saiyan like Goku, fighting for the sheer fun of it, or Vegeta, fighting to show off how tremendous his dong is. She wants the cash. And she saw the fastest way to take "Mighty Mask" out was disqualify them.

Especially since one doesn't have to be stronger to send the other fighter flying - SSJ Vegeta tossed #18 around a few times, which would've been a ring-out at the Budokai.

So, what I'm saying is, she ended the fight so quickly not because the kids would overpower her, but because if they get one lucky hit off she won't get the tournament money.

[Yamcha_krillin]

^^ That's reasonabel too.

Besides she doesn't have any data files on Goten or Trunks and maybe since she can't sense KI she didn't want to risk anything and ended it because she is there for the money,wich is a faster way to get to the cash then doing some unecesary figthing.

Both of them started going crazy when she told them that she knows who they are.They pretty much got scared.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Where is this "off-guard" thing from? She looked right at Trunks charge that beam, so she wasn't caught off-guard by anything.

The kids were scared because she knew their identity, since she said I know who you are and they got scared right after she stated that.

[Kid Trunks]

Where is this "off-guard" thing from? She looked right at Trunks charge that beam, so she wasn't caught off-guard by anything.

Exactly. And she'd also been shooting chi blast at them previously, so she knew it was a "chi blast" type of fight. So she obviously knew Mighty Mask had powers (she even mentioned her suspicions of this earlier). So she was not surprised by the fact that he shot a chi blast, but by how strong it was. And I know she used to not be able to sense energy, but the fact that she says "surely their not that strong" after witnessing their blast shows that she does have some sort of understanding ("that" meaning a particular level of power that she has in mind, a power that causes her shock and worry).

And since nothing is ever mentioned about 18 worrying for the safety of people in the stadium, its a stretch to use it as an argument. Not to mention the fact that it was Trunks who shot the blast, and we (and 18 had witnessed earlier that he could control his chi blasts, so there was no worry that he'd let it hit the stadium anyway.

18 ended the fight because she realized that the boys were more than she'd expected, and she didn't fancy her chances. She even says that since the boys really are "that strong" she'd better "end this quick". The fact that she didn't try to take them on when they went SSJ shows that she knew was probably outmatched, so she went for the easy way out, the disqualification.

[Yamcha_krillin]

I have found something more that shows that 18 was just suprised or shocked and not a bit concern.

Remember when Goten throw that rock on Gohan.Gohan saw Goten throwing that rock and then Gohan dodge it.

After he dodge it Gohan had the same facial expression as 18 after she dodged that blast.

Where is this "off-guard" thing from? She looked right at Trunks charge that beam, so she wasn't caught off-guard by anything.

The kids were scared because she knew their identity, since she said I know who you are and they got scared right after she stated that.

She didn't expect them to shoot it as fast as they did.

When Goten threw that rock on Gohan,Gohan also saw him throwing it and then Gohan dodge it,barly.He also didn't expect him to shoot it as fast as he did.

But why would they even be scared.Maybe because they wont be abel to put up a fight against her or maybe they know that they can't beat her.

Kid Trunks:18 doesn't know who is who under that costume.

[Kid Trunks]

I have found something more that shows that 18 was just suprised or shocked and not a bit concern.

Remember when Goten throw that rock on Gohan.Gohan saw Goten throwing that rock and then Gohan dodge it.

After he dodge it Gohan had the same facial expression as 18 after she dodged that blast.

Don't you think thats stretching it just a little.

Where is this "off-guard" thing from? She looked right at Trunks charge that beam, so she wasn't caught off-guard by anything.

The kids were scared because she knew their identity, since she said I know who you are and they got scared right after she stated that.

She didn't expect them to shoot it as fast as they did.

When Goten threw that rock on Gohan,Gohan also saw him throwing it and then Gohan dodge it,barly.He also didnt expect him to shoot it as fast as he did.

But why would they even be scared.Maybe because they wont be abel to put up a fight against her or maybe they know that they can't beat her.

[/quote]

They were scared because they would get disqualified. They're cover was blown.

[Rocketman]

18 ended the fight because she realized that the boys were more than she'd expected, and she didn't fancy her chances. She even says that since the boys really are "that strong" she'd better "end this quick". The fact that she didn't try to take them on when they went SSJ shows that she knew was probably outmatched, so she went for the easy way out, the disqualification.

As I said, they don't have to overpower her to make her lose the match.

"That strong" could just as easily mean they're too strong to be toyed with.

And let's not forget they're in the match triply illegally (impersonating another fighter, fighting as a team, and too young). Who wouldn't want to show them for cheaters before the entire world? MWAHAHAHA

[Yamcha_krillin]

@Kid Trunks

Well it is a valid argument since he had the same facial expression as her.

Here's a scan



-But they weren't discovored yet,only 18 knew no one else.

[Kid Trunks]

@Kid Trunks

Well it is a valid argument since he had the same facial expression as her.

Here's a scan

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e226/ ... pg_700.jpg
-But they weren't discovored yet,only 18 knew no one else.

But come on, a million different people have had that expression in a million different circumstances. It proves nothing.

And now that I even think about it, whats that expression on Gohan's face even supposed to prove anyway?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

It doesn't mean anything.

Both situations are different from one another.

What exactly does Trunks say when #18 says their identity? She knows! So they were afraid their costume was blown.

[Bussani]

People might be trying to think too deeply in this thread. Myself included, with what I'm about to say.

A lot of people use the fact that #18 can't sense ki as evidence for one thing or another, but it didn't stop her being impressed with character's powers in the Cell saga.

And remember, Freeza couldn't sense ki either. It never stopped him.

Edit: Well, until he cut himself in half, I mean...

[Yamcha_krillin]

@Kid Trunks

Well it is a valid argument since he had the same facial expression as her.

Here's a scan

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e226/ ... pg_700.jpg
-But they weren't discovored yet,only 18 knew no one else.

But come on, a million different people have had that expression in a million different circumstances. It proves nothing.

And now that I even think about it, whats that expression on Gohan's face even supposed to prove anyway?

I think it is.Goten thew the rock,Trunks fired the blast.Gohan dodged the blast,18 dodged the blast.Gohan was shocked on how strong Goten is and so was 18.They had the same facial expression.Because she can't sense power levels,never showed any sign that she can, she didn't want to play a guess game and ended it.But it think this is just opinion based then.

Regarding the Kids got scared thing;Yeah they got scared when she figured them out but why did they got scared,is the question.It's not like the judges or the blond guy knew or that they somehow heard that Mighty Mask is made out od two peopel.Only 18 knew,so maybe the kids knew that they won't be abel to fight her since now she knows who they are and won't hold back.

[Kid Trunks]

A lot of people use the fact that #18 can't sense ki as evidence for one thing or another, but it didn't stop her being impressed with character's powers in the Cell saga.

Exactly. She obviously has some sort of way of judging powers, even if only very roughly.

@Kid Trunks

Well it is a valid argument since he had the same facial expression as her.

Here's a scan

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e226/ ... pg_700.jpg
-But they weren't discovored yet,only 18 knew no one else.

But come on, a million different people have had that expression in a million different circumstances. It proves nothing.

And now that I even think about it, whats that expression on Gohan's face even supposed to prove anyway?

I think it is.Goten thew the rock,Trunks fired the blast.Gohan dodged the blast,18 dodged the blast.Gohan was shocked on how strong Goten is and so was 18.They had the same facial expression.Because she can't sense power levels,never showed any sign that she can, she didn't want to play a guess game and ended it.But it think this is just opinion based then.

Regarding the Kids got scared thing;Yeah they got scared when she figured them out but why did they got scared,is the question.It's not like the judges or the blond guy knew or that they somehow heard that Mighty Mask is made out od two peopel.Only 18 knew,so maybe the kids knew that they won't be abel to fight her since now she knows who they are and won't hold back.

The "face expression theory" is way too far fetched IMO.

And it seemed obvious that the kids were scared that they were going to get in trouble when 18 found out who they were. They were scared that they would get disqualified and get in trouble with their moms (who had been looking for them). Infact, I'm not even sure they were scared. Maybe they just got a shock. But if they were scared, thats what they were scared of. They hadn't shown any fear of 18 before then (and they even said they knew she was strong, so they knew what they were getting into when they fought her), so it makes no sense that they would fear her strength now...Especially since she'd given them nothing to fear anyway.

[Bussani]

And it seemed obvious that the kids were scared that they were going to get in trouble when 18 found out who they were. They were scared that they would get disqualified and get in trouble with their moms (who had been looking for them). Infact, I'm not even sure they were scared. Maybe they just got a shock. But if they were scared, thats what they were scared of. They hadn't shown any fear of 18 before then (and they even said they knew she was strong, so they knew what they were getting into when they fought her), so it makes no sense that they would fear her strength now...Especially since she'd given them nothing to fear anyway.

I probably agree, although I'm not directly disagreeing with anyone else in the process.

When I was a kid, just the thought of getting in trouble was scary, even if it didn't really lead to anything. Looking back on it, I wish I'd been more mellow and not taken everything so seriously.

[Yamcha_krillin]

A lot of people use the fact that #18 can't sense ki as evidence for one thing or another, but it didn't stop her being impressed with character's powers in the Cell saga.

Exactly. She obviously has some sort of way of judging powers, even if only very roughly.

But come on, a million different people have had that expression in a million different circumstances. It proves nothing.

And now that I even think about it, whats that expression on Gohan's face even supposed to prove anyway?

I think it is.Goten thew the rock,Trunks fired the blast.Gohan dodged the blast,18 dodged the blast.Gohan was shocked on how strong Goten is and so was 18.They had the same facial expression.Because she can't sense power levels,never showed any sign that she can, she didn't want to play a guess game and ended it.But it think this is just opinion based then.

Regarding the Kids got scared thing;Yeah they got scared when she figured them out but why did they got scared,is the question.It's not like the judges or the blond guy knew or that they somehow heard that Mighty Mask is made out od two peopel.Only 18 knew,so maybe the kids knew that they won't be abel to fight her since now she knows who they are and won't hold back.

The "face expression theory" is way too far fetched IMO.

And it seemed obvious that the kids were scared that they were going to get in trouble when 18 found out who they were. They were scared that they would get disqualified and get in trouble with their moms (who had been looking for them). Infact, I'm not even sure they were scared. Maybe they just got a shock. But if they were scared, thats what they were scared of. They hadn't shown any fear of 18 before then (and they even said they knew she was strong, so they knew what they were getting into when they fought her), so it makes no sense that they would fear her strength now...Especially since she'd given them nothing to fear anyway.

This is just opinion based then.

Before the match started the boys said that 18 is very powerfull and that they should be very carfull around her, since she was stronger then their fathers once.Remember 18 can't be sensed and she did knock them out in their base form easilly.

They said"She...She knows" with a scared look on their faces.Was it because they will get in troubel later on with their mom's or because they won't be abel to put a fight against 18 is up in the air.

[Kid Trunks]

This is just opinion based then.

Before the match started the boys said that 18 is very powerfull and that they should be very carfull around her, since she was stronger then their fathers once.Remember 18 can't be sensed and she did knock them out in their base form easilly.

They said"She...She knows" with a scared look on their faces.Was it because they will get in troubel later on with their mom's or because they won't be abel to put a fight against 18 is up in the air.

But pretty much everything we say is "opinion based"...

But theres more evidence in support of the kids being around 18's level. I think it makes more sense that their reaction was from fear of getting in trouble.

And I've already made every other point I had to make in earlier posts, so I won't repeat it all again.

[Kak]

In GT adult Trunks states that Piccolo is stronger than him (the early episode where Trunks has to dress as a girl for that monster), and while not canon it does give an indication of what TOEI thinks. Just thought I'd throw that in there just for fun, even if it doesn't count.