New Special: Canon or Not?

[JAPPO]

I don't see the movies as canon.

And I'm not a fan of them either.

...so, wait...

You don't like the DragonBall movies because they stray too far from the original series.

...am I the only one seeing the irony here?

-Corey

Did I say that?

I said I don't see them as canon.

I don't like them because I think they suck, frankly.

[SaiyaMel]

In my book it counts as part of the continuity canon - I'm not as hung up over that canon vs filler crap as I was before.

Vegeta could had just thought Tahbul was dead.. I love the special regardless. I'll certainly purchase it once it comes out on DVD.

[Undercooked Sausage]

I feel the series has been slipping further and further into mediocrity with each new addition to the "canon," this new special was no different. It's like it didn't even try to have a plot.

I just strongly feel Freeza was the time to end the show.

Sarcasm, right?

This is just meant to be a fun, throw-away special.

[JAPPO]

I feel the series has been slipping further and further into mediocrity with each new addition to the "canon," this new special was no different. It's like it didn't even try to have a plot.

I just strongly feel Freeza was the time to end the show.

Sarcasm, right?

This is just meant to be a fun, throw-away special.

I agree with the throw-away part.

Anyway, I don't mean to be negative, and I'm glad if people enjoyed it. So I'll leave it at that.

[Rocketman]

And for all the people shouting "Vegeta said there were no other Saiyajin!", did Tullece, Broli and Paragus make your heads explode or what?

Those movies can't be canon even if the enemies weren't Saiyan.

[Gozar]

I feel the series has been slipping further and further into mediocrity with each new addition to the "canon," this new special was no different. It's like it didn't even try to have a plot.

I just strongly feel Freeza was the time to end the show.

Sarcasm, right?

This is just meant to be a fun, throw-away special.

I agree with the throw-away part.

Anyway, I don't mean to be negative, and I'm glad if people enjoyed it. So I'll leave it at that.

I find it kind of silly that you defend the Live Action Movie to no end. Yet dislike this. =/

[JAPPO]

Sarcasm, right?

This is just meant to be a fun, throw-away special.

I agree with the throw-away part.

Anyway, I don't mean to be negative, and I'm glad if people enjoyed it. So I'll leave it at that.

I find it kind of silly that you defend the Live Action Movie to no end. Yet dislike this. =/

Live Action Movie isn't out yet. When it comes out I'll give my honest opinion. I plan on reviewing it on my site.

If it sucks, rest assured I will let everyone know (including the cast/crew who read my site) it sucks.

But I'm not going to bash a movie that I happen to think has promise.

[Captain-Sora]

Y'ask me, this entire new special has been one big message of "F*** canon, let's just have fun!" Let's take a look at some of the bigger "plot holes" that I noticed...

• - Earth's population still remembers Buu (yet Mr. Buu himself is right out in the open at the banquet!)
  
  - It's been two years, but it seems Goten and Trunks haven't aged at all. They actually look a bit younger than in the Buu arc to me, but that may be mostly due to the animation style.
  
  - 18's sensing ki. Only KIND of a plothole; just because it's not one of her built-in functions, nothing really suggests she couldn't just learn to do it the good ol'-fashioned way.
  
  - Piccolo eating. Then again, I always figured it wasn't that Namekians can't eat, just that they don't need to.
  
  - Tarble himself. Vegeta's little brother outta nowhere. First off, like Rocketman said, Vegeta claimed there were no other Saiyans around (then again, he forgot Paragus, and Broly, and Tullece...).
  
  But how and when was he born? Since Vegeta said the King, specifically, sent him away to a remote star because of his low battle power, that means Tarble was born while King Vegeta was still around, before he and the rest were killed by Freeza. So he can't be any more than a few years younger than Vegeta.
  
  So how does Tarble appear so drastically younger? Was he in stasis? Does he have some sort of pituitary gland problem? Is Grey some sort of mystic being keeping him young a-la Zefram Cochrane and "The Companion?" The universe may never know...
  
  - And lastly, if you wanna delve into power comparisons, there's the matter of Goku succeeding where Gotenks failed.

So what should this all suggest? That Mr. Toriyama and Toei don't sweat over the details of canon. So why should we?

Also add in Gregory existing in it, you can spot him during the part where everyone's listening in on Mr. Satan's speech and also when everyone was laughing near the end.

Anyway, for me, I enjoyed the special, I didn't exactly think about the non-canon tweaks involved, I just watched it to have a blast...and I did! Also, am I the only one who likes the SSJ hairstyle in this special?

[rkpres17]

It's not hurting anything and it fits, so I consider it compatible with canon.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Also, am I the only one who likes the SSJ hairstyle in this special?

I loved it on Gotenks. For some reason, I was less fond of the hair on Goku, though.

[Dayspring]

Y'ask me, this entire new special has been one big message of "F*** canon, let's just have fun!" Let's take a look at some of the bigger "plot holes" that I noticed...

• - Earth's population still remembers Buu (yet Mr. Buu himself is right out in the open at the banquet!)
  
  - It's been two years, but it seems Goten and Trunks haven't aged at all. They actually look a bit younger than in the Buu arc to me, but that may be mostly due to the animation style.
  
  - 18's sensing ki. Only KIND of a plothole; just because it's not one of her built-in functions, nothing really suggests she couldn't just learn to do it the good ol'-fashioned way.
  
  - Piccolo eating. Then again, I always figured it wasn't that Namekians can't eat, just that they don't need to.
  
  - Tarble himself. Vegeta's little brother outta nowhere. First off, like Rocketman said, Vegeta claimed there were no other Saiyans around (then again, he forgot Paragus, and Broly, and Tullece...).
  
  But how and when was he born? Since Vegeta said the King, specifically, sent him away to a remote star because of his low battle power, that means Tarble was born while King Vegeta was still around, before he and the rest were killed by Freeza. So he can't be any more than a few years younger than Vegeta.
  
  So how does Tarble appear so drastically younger? Was he in stasis? Does he have some sort of pituitary gland problem? Is Grey some sort of mystic being keeping him young a-la Zefram Cochrane and "The Companion?" The universe may never know...
  
  - And lastly, if you wanna delve into power comparisons, there's the matter of Goku succeeding where Gotenks failed.

So what should this all suggest? That Mr. Toriyama and Toei don't sweat over the details of canon. So why should we?

Has Toriyama ever sweat the details? DB is the only one of his works to my knowledge that takes it itself even remotely seriously. Even then, there's so many instances in when DB reverts in the manga to Toriyama's trademarked slapstick, 4th-wall breaking goodness.

-Earth remembering Buu: Easy. Instead of thinking Mr. Buu is responsible for what happened, the wish made it so they don't remember ever seeing Fat (Mr.) Buu, thus they all know a monster named Buu existed that ravaged Earth and was defeated by Satan. This is what I always thought happened in the manga, TBH.

-Piccolo eating: Piccolo was having broth, which is essentially flavored water. Plus we technically don't see him eat it. Meanwhile we've seen Piccolo eat countless senzu in the manga.

-Goten and Trunks not aging: unless there's a major time gap of 5 or more years, Toriyama doesn't alter age designs.

-18 sensing ki: my personal biggest nuissance, but still easily explainable: she's had 9 years to learn. In fact, it's arguable she displayed this ability when Goten and Trunks fought her (when they went SSJ).

-Tarble's appearance: Depending on the shot and shading, there were tons of scenes that made him look old enough to appease my earlier complaints. Plus he's WAY taller than Krillin, so his shortness is okay in my book.


Other people's complaints:

"No other Saiyans": Actually... Vegeta's reaction to Tarble's arrival made me think he thought Tarble was dead all those years. It makes sense when you think about it: Tarble is a Lowest Level Saiyan sent to a weak planet as a baby, a not unommon outcome of which is death. Tarble is never heard from again for decades. In Vegeta's shoes, what would you think happened to him?

No Tenshinhan: This is neither here nor there. It just means Tenshinhan didn't accept the invitation and/or wasn't found in order to be asked.

No Uub: This works fine. They're only supposed to meet Uub in 8 years, anyway.

[Dayspring]

Woopsy! Forgot 2 major points:

"SSJ Goku succeeded where SSJ Gotenks failed": This is explained (visually) in the special. Abocado lost shitloads of energy from his special attacks and from getting the snot kicked out of him by SSJ Gotenks. When Abocado first appears he's larger than an Oozaru. When he loses, he's same size/shorter than Goku. This is most likely strength-related.


And I think it's canon. My personal canon is any idea created by Toriyama that doesn't contradict his manga in a major fashion. This falls under that.

[SaiyaMel]

@Dayspring:

"No other Saiyans": Actually... Vegeta's reaction to Tarble's arrival made me think he thought Tarble was dead all those years. It makes sense when you think about it: Tarble is a Lowest Level Saiyan sent to a weak planet as a baby, a not unommon outcome of which is death. Tarble is never heard from again for decades. In Vegeta's shoes, what would you think happened to him?

That's what I was thinking and was going to add - you beat me to it. Not to mention the thought that there were only four Saiyan survivors, could had been originally Freeza's words - so the Vegeta, Nappa and Raditz went along with his word.

And I think it's canon. My personal canon is any idea created by Toriyama that doesn't contradict his manga in a major fashion. This falls under that.

^I second that too!

[Yamcha_krillin]

-Goten and Trunks not aging: unless there's a major time gap of 5 or more years, Toriyama doesn't alter age designs.

-18 sensing ki: my personal biggest nuissance, but still easily explainable: she's had 9 years to learn. In fact, it's arguable she displayed this ability when Goten and Trunks fought her (when they went SSJ).

-Tenshinhan also didn't seemed to age a bit during the 7 years up to the buu saga.

-She wasn't abel because she would have known that Goten and Trunks are hidding under that costume when they started fighting her.

[testing223]

It sucked because it wasn't long enough. I wanted 2 hours of fanwanking.


And Tarble's name should have been ABLE, which is a better pun.

[Neon Z]

Right now, I'm assuming it's canon; in spite of any plotholes. Really, what's important here in the production.

1-It's based on an original concept by Toriyama, even if he didn't personally wrote the script or directed the special.

2-It's published by Shounen Jump, not Toei, unlike the anime, so it isn't anime canon, and even uses the Dragonball manga logo.

There are plotholes and an anime-only character makes a cameo in the background, but, using those standards, even the Freeza Saga wouldn't be canon.

[Tsukento]

- 18's sensing ki. Only KIND of a plothole; just because it's not one of her built-in functions, nothing really suggests she couldn't just learn to do it the good ol'-fashioned way.

She's a CYBORG. Not an Android. She's a human with nanomachines running around in her blood.

I feel the series has been slipping further and further into mediocrity with each new addition to the "canon," this new special was no different. It's like it didn't even try to have a plot.

God dammit, PLEASE someone tell me I'm not the only one who sees the irony in his post compared to posts of another subject?

1. I can't believe it, but Radditz was actually more convincing than Vegeta's brother. And he actually had more than 3-4 lines of dialogue. Plus, it didn't come completely out of the blue, because during DragonBall everyone knew Goku wasn't normal.

Yes it did. One moment Goku is declared the strongest man in the world after having defeated Piccolo Daimao's reincarnation and gets married, the next he's suddenly got a brother who comes out of no where and happens to be an alien.

...so, wait...

You don't like the DragonBall movies because they stray too far from the original series.

...am I the only one seeing the irony here?

Oh thank you, Corey.

[Yamcha_krillin]

I don't think that this special should be considered canonical because while I know it was made going by an original concept by Akira Toriyama, but Akira Toriyama didn't write the script and story, right?

Besides, there are some plotholes in that special as well as contradictions.

[Raki]

I don't think that this special should be considered canonical because while I know it was made going by an original concept by Akira Toriyama, but Akira Toriyama didn't write the script and story, right?

Besides, there are some plotholes in that special as well as contradictions.

He wrote the whole thing.

[Conan the SSJ]

Having by now seen the special about 3 times, I see this movie as continuity with the anime~

So I guess that means my canon perspective needs updating:

Bardock Special.
Original DragonBall Series -- Episodes 1 - 153.
Dead Zone Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 1 - 117.
Trunks Special.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 118 - 125 (till the point where the screen freezes as the 3 years quickly pass by).
Cooler's Revenge Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 125 (from the last minute of this episode when the 3 years have passed) - 176.
Super Android 13 Movie (set in "Timeline 4", where Cell never came to the past and the Androids were defeated differently).
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 177 - 194.
Bojack Unbound Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 195 - 288.
Wrath of the Dragon Movie.
"Heya!! The Return of Son Goku & Friends!" Special.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 289 - 291.
DragonBall GT Series -- Episodes 1 - 64 (right up to the final 8 minute sequence, culminating with Goku departing with Shenlong).
Goku Jr. Special.
DragonBall GT Series -- Episode 64 (the final 8 minutes, 100 years later).

I explain away certain events as:

Elder Kaioshin's Halo: A prank of some type on his part! (And animation goof.)
The public remembering Buu's terror: Shenlong didn't erase the knowledge of Buu's terror from the Earthlings' minds, simply put a glamour of sorts on them to conceal fat/Mr. Buu's identity.
Piccolo eating: What's the big deal here? He ate in original DragonBall, remember the fish chibi Jr. caught? And yeah, it looked more like broth than actual food in any case.
Goten & Trunks' aging: Not a big deal, just a design choice. They're still only 9 and 10 years old, Goku didn't look much older at 15. It's only 2 years after the Buu arc (a year after Hildegarn if you wanna count that), remember that growth spurts take a while to kick in for some males.
Tarble not being referenced after this special: So what? It's not like Raditz gets referenced a whole lot, which there were some golden opportunities for in this special. Star Wars has it worse with that whole apprentice of Anakin's in The Clone Wars.

Vegeta could had just thought Tahbul was dead.

Indeed.

1. I can't believe it, but Radditz was actually more convincing than Vegeta's brother. And he actually had more than 3-4 lines of dialogue. Plus, it didn't come completely out of the blue, because during DragonBall everyone knew Goku wasn't normal.

And Super Saiyan 3 didn't come out of the blue just as efficiently? This is in the era of the Buu arc, expect shit to come out of the blue. As for Goku in original DB, his alien heritage was never actually foreshadowed in the Japanese version (the dub hammed it up at a couple moments), we only knew he was this naive bumpkin of a kid whom happened to have a tail and transform into a giant ape. No more complicated than a werewolf for anyone watching it back then.