New Special: Canon or Not?

Acid_Reign · Post by **Acid_Reign** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:12 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:I'm not sure that makes any kind of difference for the animators, actually...

But is the anime really animated at 30 fps? The video is 30 fps, yes, but the actual animation?

From what I understand, traditional animation is typically done in multiples of frames. For every unique frame, it might be displayed once, twice, three times, or more, depending on factors like time and budget. This process is called animating “on ones,” “on twos,” “on threes,” etc. respectively. For a 30 fps project, animating on ones would produce 30 unique frames; on twos, 15; threes, 10; effectively dividing the amount of work required to complete the project (although producing exponentially choppier animation in the process). Naturally then, for a 24 fps project, you cut the work down to 12 frames on twos, and 8 on threes. So, 24 fps is still less work in the long run, no matter how it’s approached.

I mean... The TV series was aired at 30 fps (because of the NTSC format), but actually shot at 24 fps, right? Hence the "phantom frames"...
I might be completely wrong about this, but I always thought...

Yes, that’s correct. But the original 24 fps was the direct result of shooting to film in the first place, which I presume was standard practice at the time. It could have been shot at 30 fps natively, but it would have used up more stock and thus been more expensive. Financially it must have made more sense to shoot at 24 and telecine it to 30 for broadcast. Not the case anymore. This work was clearly done digitally and so there is no added expense of choosing to “shoot” at higher frame rates. I suspect they simply cut-out the middle man so to speak and designed the project to run at the destination speed from the start.

"Movie formulas"? I'm not sure I follow you...

What I mean to say is, OVAs tend to follow the same plot structure and running time as movies anyway, so what precludes an OVA from also being a movie and vice-versa? In this case, the product certainly seems to lack a clear distinction as one thing or another as it has had multiple avenues of exhibition in a very non-traditional sense.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:27 pm

Acid_Reign wrote:What I mean to say is, OVAs tend to follow the same plot structure and running time as movies anyway, so what precludes an OVA from also being a movie and vice-versa?

I wouldn't say plot structure or running time are relevant, here... There are long OVAs and short movies...
And there are movies like Momentum, that are 48 fps, short, and not intended for "regular" theatrical distribution... ;þ

Acid_Reign · Post by **Acid_Reign** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:36 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:I wouldn't say plot structure or running time are relevant, here... There are long OVAs and short movies...
And there are movies like Momentum, that are 48 fps, short, and not intended for "regular" theatrical distribution... ;þ

Of course there are always exceptions; I was speaking generally. Basically the point is: whether something is released to theaters or home video first does not make it any more or less of a movie. I see OVA as more of a type of movie than something wholly separate from them.

Hero 004 · Post by **Hero 004** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:42 am

I look at it as 100% canon, especially since it was called "Dragon Ball" and not "Z". To me it's a big taste of what Toriyama would have told had he filled in the gap between Buu and Uub in detail; and of course I now consider it officially part of the story. It would make such a great launch for a new series, with Table as a new member of the team.

Zenkai Power · Post by **Zenkai Power** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:16 am

Hero 004 wrote:I look at it as 100% canon, especially since it was called "Dragon Ball" and not "Z". To me it's a bug taste of what Toriyama would have told had he filled in the gap between Buu and Uub in detail; and of course I now consider it officially part of the story. It would make such a great launch for a new series, with Table as a new member of the team.

I agree... this could have been a saga. I mean obviously due to time constraints it's treated less seriously, but they could have had Tarble and his wife contribute to a big fight. Perhaps Abo and Cado would appear over a number of episodes, building them up as a huge threat and hten they aren't... but then they combine into Aka and they put up a fight... but still are beaten. Only for some other plot twist to occur or something, that could lead into who knows what.

Maybe Tarble's wife could have had some kind of power or transformation that made her innocent look turn into something else. Who knows where it could have gone.

But the addition of Tarble could have added lots of interesting possibilities. It's too bad we'll never know.

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:41 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:No.
Tenshinhan descending from aliens? I'm afraid that's official.
You don't like that? It's your opinion.
You don't consider that detail canonical? It's your opinion.
But it's still official. It's still not fanfiction at all (as fanfiction, by definition, isn't official).

I really don't care what you think. If you choose to believe every word you read from a book that's directly contradicted Toriyama that's your business. But don't try and push such things on me.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 9:25 pm

Gozar wrote:
Olivier Hague wrote:No.
Tenshinhan descending from aliens? I'm afraid that's official.
You don't like that? It's your opinion.
You don't consider that detail canonical? It's your opinion.
But it's still official. It's still not fanfiction at all (as fanfiction, by definition, isn't official).
I really don't care what you think. If you choose to believe every word you read from a book that's directly contradicted Toriyama that's your business. But don't try and push such things on me.

He wasn't...
The Daizenshuu = official? Fact.
You disagree with their material? Opinion.
That doesn't mean that your opinion is invalid, nor does official mean canon to manga.
But Olivier's statements are factual, disputes of content-continuity aside.

Captain Awesome · Post by **Captain Awesome** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 9:35 pm

Gozar wrote:
Olivier Hague wrote:No.
Tenshinhan descending from aliens? I'm afraid that's official.
You don't like that? It's your opinion.
You don't consider that detail canonical? It's your opinion.
But it's still official. It's still not fanfiction at all (as fanfiction, by definition, isn't official).
I really don't care what you think. If you choose to believe every word you read from a book that's directly contradicted Toriyama that's your business. But don't try and push such things on me.

Whether the Daizenshuu are official or not isn't up for debate, it's a fact, whether you take the information in them as canon is your opinion, but it doesn't make the information any less official.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 9:52 pm

Gozar wrote:I really don't care what you think. If you choose to believe every word you read from a book that's directly contradicted Toriyama that's your business. But don't try and push such things on me.

Err, as much as I love the man's work, Toriyama contradicted himself quite a bit. He even admitted as much (I can't provide direct quotes here, but I'm sure someone else can come up with something). So, using contradictions as a reason to disregard the Daizenshuu isn't a very good reason.

Besides, honestly, who is to say that Toriyama didn't simply voice things that he never put into the manga? Tenshinhan being descended from aliens for example. It could have been notated on concept sketches and never been said in the manga, or Toriyama could have made it up on the spot when asked by the authors. Who knows? His characters, his choices.

-Corey

Raki · Post by **Raki** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:03 pm

Also if Toriyama didn't want something in the Daizenshuu he could have had it pulled.

SaiyaMel · Post by **SaiyaMel** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:27 pm

Feel like putting this into my sig right now:

SSj Kaboom wrote:Mr. Toriyama and Toei don't sweat over the details of canon. So why should we?

That Tenshinhan alien statement sounds to me like something the man would come up with..

The only thing about the manga is that we know for sure it's all Toriyama's work (ok, Bardock wasn't originally his idea,, but anything else would).

Miracles · Post by **Miracles** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:17 pm

If the special continues from the actual story [Manga], which it does then it is continuity, canon.

Super Ghost Kamikaze · Post by **Super Ghost Kamikaze** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:23 pm

By the way, am I the only person on this site that thinks that looking at the frames per second as a deciding factor in what you call the new special....is just a little ridiculous?

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:34 am

Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:By the way, am I the only person on this site that thinks that looking at the frames per second as a deciding factor in what you call the new special....is just a little ridiculous?

No, you are not alone.

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:56 am

Onikage725 wrote:He wasn't...
The Daizenshuu = official? Fact.
You disagree with their material? Opinion.
That doesn't mean that your opinion is invalid, nor does official mean canon to manga.
But Olivier's statements are factual, disputes of content-continuity aside.

OK if that's the way you'd like to word it. I don't find the material canon. I cannot trust it.

MajinVejitaXV wrote:Err, as much as I love the man's work, Toriyama contradicted himself quite a bit. He even admitted as much (I can't provide direct quotes here, but I'm sure someone else can come up with something). So, using contradictions as a reason to disregard the Daizenshuu isn't a very good reason.

So because Toriyama contradicts himself that means it's ok for other people to make stuff up? These are the same people who created "Yamcha>Super Perfect Cell".

MajinVejitaXV wrote:His characters, his choices.

Which is exactly why I cannot trust the Daizenshuu fully.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:40 am

Gozar wrote:...
MajinVejitaXV wrote:His characters, his choices.
Which is exactly why I cannot trust the Daizenshuu fully.

You cannot trust the man to determine his own characters backgrounds etc. What type of reasoning is that?

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:13 am

Saiyan-Professor wrote:
Gozar wrote:...
MajinVejitaXV wrote:His characters, his choices.
Which is exactly why I cannot trust the Daizenshuu fully.
You cannot trust the man to determine his own characters backgrounds etc. What type of reasoning is that?

Because I don't believe that the Daizenshuu's new stuff is straight from Toriyama.

Acid_Reign · Post by **Acid_Reign** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:31 am

Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:By the way, am I the only person on this site that thinks that looking at the frames per second as a deciding factor in what you call the new special....is just a little ridiculous?

Why? Because it’s technical? The fact of the matter is, films are shown at 24 fps and TV is shown at 30 (at least in Japan and the US). Looking at the frame rate helps determine which camp it belongs to, if either.

Forgotten Hero · Post by **Forgotten Hero** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:31 am

Trust the manga first, and Daizenshuu second.

Super Ghost Kamikaze · Post by **Super Ghost Kamikaze** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:38 am

Forgotten Hero wrote:Trust the manga first, and Daizenshuu second.

Yes actually, because it's technical. To a rather significant degree, I think. The amount of thought put into a cartoon that is a light and humorous adventure first, martial arts action series second, and a dramatic sci-fi/magical story last...is certainly a bit much. It's just something that doesn't really need so much intensive thought, and I think that the obvious reality of Dragon Ball can be obscured by too much thought sometimes.