Avo and Cado equals which form of Freeza?

[Yamcha_krillin]

They were each probably as strong as Freeza's maximum strength.

This is after the Majin Buu fight, when they trained in the RoSAT.

It wouldn't be inconceivable for the kids to be that strong, and more. Considering Abo and Cado were outmatched even by the kids in their base forms, it all makes sense.

They were not outmatched, Avo and Cado would win if there wasn't Gohan there to help them.They won't become much stronger from being in the chamber for only 6 days.The kids even became weaker during the 2 years of peace.

[Spazicon]

Gohan's assistance was hella minor. They were rusty in battle. Gohan didn't inject any magic Sensu Zeni Power Up through their veins or anything.

The kids were already physically capable/superior to both Abo and Cado. In time, even without Gohan's assistance, the kids would have won, anyway (IMO)


Seriously.

[temujin]

Because the Buu Saga was really, the “Idiot Duo” hour and Vegeta put up a descent fight against Fat Buu. If Buu did not have the ability to regenerate, he would have been destroyed earlier on in the Saga.

Manga's quote is pretty obvious,basically picccolo says that the difference between their powers is too great,then we have daizenshuu supporting this statement.
In my mind there is no doubt that kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo, at least it's official.
i cannot believe someone could made up an information like that considering that Toriyama supervised Daizenshuu.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Because the Buu Saga was really, the “Idiot Duo” hour and Vegeta put up a descent fight against Fat Buu. If Buu did not have the ability to regenerate, he would have been destroyed earlier on in the Saga.

Manga's quote is pretty obvious,basically picccolo says that the difference between their powers is too great,then we have daizenshuu supporting this statement.
In my mind there is no doubt that kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo, at least it's official.
i cannot believe someone could made up an information like that considering that Toriyama supervised Daizenshuu.

Hey, I am the biggest supporter of the Daizenshuu, and GT Perfect Files it is the others that is on the “manga only” trip. Look at what preceded my statements to see why I answered in that manner.

[temujin]

Because the Buu Saga was really, the “Idiot Duo” hour and Vegeta put up a descent fight against Fat Buu. If Buu did not have the ability to regenerate, he would have been destroyed earlier on in the Saga.

Manga's quote is pretty obvious,basically picccolo says that the difference between their powers is too great,then we have daizenshuu supporting this statement.
In my mind there is no doubt that kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo, at least it's official.
i cannot believe someone could made up an information like that considering that Toriyama supervised Daizenshuu.

Hey, I am the biggest supporter of the Daizenshuu, and GT Perfect Files it is the others that is on the “manga only” trip. Look at what preceded my statements to see why I answered in that manner.

You are right.
Sorry.

[Travis Touchdown]

Though its canonocity (is that a word) is arguable, Onio from Neko Majin Z has an SSJ strength only about as strong as Saiyan-saga Vegeta. This is easily explainable: he had an exceptionally low potential.

I'm not trying to be rude, but how do you know that? Z went toe to toe with SSJ Goku in his mock Super Neko Majin form.

[Dayspring]

Though its canonocity (is that a word) is arguable, Onio from Neko Majin Z has an SSJ strength only about as strong as Saiyan-saga Vegeta. This is easily explainable: he had an exceptionally low potential.

I'm not trying to be rude, but how do you know that? Z went toe to toe with SSJ Goku in his mock Super Neko Majin form.

So? That just means SSJ Goku is a hell of a lot stronger than SSJ Onio.

Anyhoo, we know Onio to be as strong as Saiyan-saga Vegeta because both claim it would take them a month to conquer Earth.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Though its canonocity (is that a word) is arguable, Onio from Neko Majin Z has an SSJ strength only about as strong as Saiyan-saga Vegeta. This is easily explainable: he had an exceptionally low potential.

I'm not trying to be rude, but how do you know that? Z went toe to toe with SSJ Goku in his mock Super Neko Majin form.

So? That just means SSJ Goku is a hell of a lot stronger than SSJ Onio.

Anyhoo, we know Onio to be as strong as Saiyan-saga Vegeta because both claim it would take them a month to conquer Earth.

How does that work, a Super Saiyan that is only 18,000?

[Forgotten Hero]

It don't work that way folks. You gotta get up to 180,000.
Read this from Daizenshuu EX's transformation page. It explains all this stuff.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

It don't work that way folks. You gotta get up to 180,000.
Read this from Daizenshuu EX's transformation page. It explains all this stuff.

Goku is the first to go through the transformation into a Super Saiyan. It is widely speculated that the Sentô Ryoku ("combat strength," or if you must, "power level") of the character must be around 180,000, which Goku reaches on Namek; this cannot be confirmed or denied, however (it's merely speculation).

Yes, it does explain that stuff quite well.

[Forgotten Hero]

It's better than say 18,000 is power level you need to become a Super Saiyajin.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

It's better than say 18,000 is power level you need to become a Super Saiyajin.

Why?

[Forgotten Hero]

It's better than say 18,000 is power level you need to become a Super Saiyajin.

Why?

Vegeta was at 18,000 when he first fights Goku, that is a factual number from my Dragonball Forever book, he couldn't become a Super Saiyajin.
Goku who wasn't really at 180,000 (Kaioken) eventually became a Super Saiyajin. I just find 180,000 to be a more realistic number than 18,000.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

It's better than say 18,000 is power level you need to become a Super Saiyajin.

Why?

Vegeta was at 18,000 when he first fights Goku, that is a factual number from my Dragonball Forever book, he couldn't become a Super Saiyajin.
Goku who wasn't really at 180,000 (Kaioken) eventually became a Super Saiyajin. I just find 180,000 to be a more realistic number than 18,000.

I don't see why it can't be both.

[Forgotten Hero]

I guess I just can't explain my point of view that well...I just don't believe that a Saiyajin can transform at 18,000 when many have tried and failed. The greatest one, Goku, had to get to ten times 18,000 just to become a Super Saiyajin. I hope that some what explains things.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

I guess I just can't explain my point of view that well...I just don't believe that a Saiyajin can transform at 18,000 when many have tried and failed. The greatest one, Goku, had to get to ten times 18,000 just to become a Super Saiyajin. I hope that some what explains things.

Not particularly. With the official explanation being that one's potential must be surpassed, then there isn't a particularly solid number. And depending on how Super Saiyan strength is calculated, it could benefit someone with a higher potential more than one with a low one.

Anyway, it's not like it particularly matters. In Dragon Ball, Super Saiyan has its dramatic purposes but is not particularly well-defined mathematically. In Neko Majin Z, the point is humor, and it doesn't particularly matter one way or the other how they deal with that.

[Forgotten Hero]

Yep, but we are here to think beneath the surface of Dragonball and question things that, like you said, doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
Something Julian has said on the podcast before is that #19 says that one cannot mathematically calculate a Super Saiyajin's power!
I always loved that!

[Saiyan-Professor]

In Dragonball GT when Bulma and Vegeta was discussing how one achieves the Golden Ôzaru/Super Saiyan 4 transformation the question was asked if all that was required was to transform into an Ôzaru why did he (Vegeta) not do so back in the Saiyan Saga? Her answer was that a Saiyan needs to have a certain amount of training behind him or her and a particular combat strength. I am paraphrasing but all one has to do is look at the Japanese subs in episode 55 (The Heart of the Prince).

[Wojak]

The only difference, GT aside, is that it was with Goku everyone found out how to become a Super Saiya-jin.
Before that, it was thought of as a legend, not fact.
When you know what you strive for really exists, it becomes easier to reach the goal, simply.
So with knowing that SSJ can be achieved, and how it can be achieved (going by the manga, they went with the rage), they all became Super Saiya-jins.
About the strength, I doubt that you really need to havea greater power to acieve it. As long as you can control your ki it's enough.
Except for Trunks and Goten. I really can't figure them out.

@ Saiyanprofessor: Going by that, the DBGT special is not GT canon, because of that Goku Jr. didn't really have any special training nor a great strength. That's why I didn't include GT in this one.

[Saiyan-Professor]

The only difference, GT aside, is that it was with Goku everyone found out how to become a Super Saiya-jin.
Before that, it was thought of as a legend, not fact.
When you know what you strive for really exists, it becomes easier to reach the goal, simply.
So with knowing that SSJ can be achieved, and how it can be achieved (going by the manga, they went with the rage), they all became Super Saiya-jins.
About the strength, I doubt that you really need to havea greater power to acieve it. As long as you can control your ki it's enough.
Except for Trunks and Goten. I really can't figure them out.

@ Saiyanprofessor: Going by that, the DBGT special is not GT canon, because of that Goku Jr. didn't really have any special training nor a great strength. That's why I didn't include GT in this one.

Well I just figured that Vegeta and Goku Jr. achieved Super Saiyan in the same manner as Chibi-Trunks and Goten. As far as the weak blood thing is concerned, I think the Transformation Guide provides a reasonable explanation.

Daizenshuu # 7 states that Pan cannot go SSJ due to the Saiyan blood in her being too diluted. However, we blatantly see both Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. able to go SSJ (almost with no problem) in the end of DBGT. The daizenshuu was written long before GT was nearing this part of the series; they had no way of knowing just what direction the show would take. GT's showing Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. going SSJ kills off the "diluted" blood theory, but still does not answer if Pan ever could / ever did go SSJ (especially in that "100 years" time between events in the last DBGT episode).