Did Vegeta Physically Cast Out Babidi's Influence?

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:38 pm

In Episode 229, when Vegeta refuses Babidi's order to kill Gohan and Kaioshin, Vegeta does the typical "screaming like my balls are in a vice and power up" antics, but we see strange bits of energy shoot out of him in addition to his typical aura. They seem to correlate to his being under Babidi's control.

I always interpreted this as Vegeta casting Babidi's influence out of his mind and body fully, since Babidi never tries to control him again. However, Babidi does seem to show some surprise at Vegeta's destruction of his spaceship citing that he didn't order him to do so. I would think this wouldn't be the case if Babidi knew Vegeta was no longer under his control.

What are your thoughts?

-Corey

Post by **Herms** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:40 pm

If Vegeta had ever fully cast Babidi's influence off, wouldn't the M on his forehead disappear and he'd lose his suped-up power?

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:47 pm

Herms wrote:If Vegeta had ever fully cast Babidi's influence off, wouldn't the M on his forehead disappear and he'd lose his suped-up power?

There have been theories before, and I'm not sure if they were disproven or substantiated in any form, that the Charm and Power-Up are actually two different spells. Perhaps the latter being something used to seduce the person into the former.

If that was the case, then casting Babidi's influence out would not take away the power increase.

-Corey

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:50 pm

Herms wrote:If Vegeta had ever fully cast Babidi's influence off, wouldn't the M on his forehead disappear and he'd lose his suped-up power?

Normally I would agree, but what about the scenes where Vegeta totally ignored Babidi. Like when he knocked out Kakarrot, blew up Babidi’s ship and attempted to destroy Majin Buu. These instances make me wonder if Vegeta had not died, would he have retained Babidi’s charm and the magical “M” tattoo. Because he received a new body when he was sent back to earth to fight Super Buu so the "M" was absent.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:50 pm

Or he was on such a high it wouldn't have mattered.

Either way, that beckons the question if he was a SSj2 before the charm and if not than his using SSj2 against Original Boo wouldn't have quite been possible unless his power being awoken worked even beyond the charm.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:52 pm

JulieYBM wrote:Or he was on such a high it wouldn't have mattered.

Either way, that beckons the question if he was a SSj2 before the charm and if not than his using SSj2 against Original Boo wouldn't have quite been possible unless his power being awoken worked even beyond the charm.

The Daizenshuu states that Vegeta achieved Super Saiyan 2 through “harsh training”.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:53 pm

To splinter off into that topic, why do people think the power increase would have given Vegeta access to the SSJ2 transformation? The "USSJ" forms, Vegeta in the Freeza saga and Gohan in general showed us that Power ≠ Transformation. The catalyst still has to be there.

The Daizenshuu states that Vegeta achieved Super Saiyan 2 through “harsh training”.

Oh...problem solved on that count then.

-Corey

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:54 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:Or he was on such a high it wouldn't have mattered.

Either way, that beckons the question if he was a SSj2 before the charm and if not than his using SSj2 against Original Boo wouldn't have quite been possible unless his power being awoken worked even beyond the charm.
The Daizenshuu states that Vegeta achieved Super Saiyan 2 through “harsh training”.

Oh well, that works dandy-like for me.

Post by **Herms** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:54 pm

I don't know. Babidi says something like "now let's draw out his dormant power beyond his limits" as he's taking Vegeta over, but I guess that could go either way.

Anyway, shouldn't Vegeta lose the M at least if he ever completely broke free?

With the "could he already become SSJ2 or not?", apart from the daizenshuu, my take is that since Vegeta doesn't immediately transform into SSJ2 after he's taken over by Babidi, but instead is shown transforming at will to fight Goku, that this strongly implies it was something he could do on his own.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:34 am

In the manga, the first order Babidi gives Vegeta is ignored, to which Babidi remarks, "I can't believe him... He's still not under my full control? I've never seen a will so strong!"

Vegeta let Babidi 'control' him in order to fight Goku, maybe even to close any gap he saw in their powers (he later comments that after seeing Goku take out Yakon he had realized the gap was bigger than he'd expected). I think he was able to ignore Babidi just because his will to fight Goku was stronger, and that will was the very reason he let Babidi control him (if you can even call it that) in the first place.

In the manga, when he yells about not killing Gohan and Kaioshin, it just seems like he has lightening around him. Of course, that's before he goes SSJ2, so it is a little strange.

B · Post by B » Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:28 am

Is Vegeta ever actually "controlled" by Babidi anyway? He allowed himself to be taken over to get his "warrior instinct" that he had pre-Frieza arc, but didn't actually do anything Babidi wanted, and just wanted to outshine Goku.

So, in essence, he was under the influence of Babidi, but not the control. If that makes any sense at all.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:34 am

JulieYBM wrote:Either way, that beckons the question if he was a SSj2 before the charm

See giant post by myself.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:44 am

B wrote:Is Vegeta ever actually "controlled" by Babidi anyway? He allowed himself to be taken over to get his "warrior instinct" that he had pre-Frieza arc, but didn't actually do anything Babidi wanted, and just wanted to outshine Goku.

So, in essence, he was under the influence of Babidi, but not the control. If that makes any sense at all.

Yeah, that sounds right. He never does anything Babidi says, Babidi just leaves him to his fight with Goku because it serves his purpose. Vegeta commented that his body and soul might be under Babidi's control, but his pride wasn't.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:42 am

Bussani wrote:
B wrote:Is Vegeta ever actually "controlled" by Babidi anyway? He allowed himself to be taken over to get his "warrior instinct" that he had pre-Frieza arc, but didn't actually do anything Babidi wanted, and just wanted to outshine Goku.

So, in essence, he was under the influence of Babidi, but not the control. If that makes any sense at all.
Yeah, that sounds right. He never does anything Babidi says, Babidi just leaves him to his fight with Goku because it serves his purpose. Vegeta commented that his body and soul might be under Babidi's control, but his pride wasn't.

He may have said that but Vegeta still did whatever he desired so I think he was just talking BS to be overly dramatic.

Zenkai Power · Post by **Zenkai Power** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:59 am

Saiyan-Professor wrote:
Bussani wrote:
B wrote:Is Vegeta ever actually "controlled" by Babidi anyway? He allowed himself to be taken over to get his "warrior instinct" that he had pre-Frieza arc, but didn't actually do anything Babidi wanted, and just wanted to outshine Goku.

So, in essence, he was under the influence of Babidi, but not the control. If that makes any sense at all.
Yeah, that sounds right. He never does anything Babidi says, Babidi just leaves him to his fight with Goku because it serves his purpose. Vegeta commented that his body and soul might be under Babidi's control, but his pride wasn't.
He may have said that but Vegeta still did whatever he desired so I think he was just talking BS to be overly dramatic.

I think the spell was supposed to make Vegeta "evil" again (or so he hoped), so that he could be like he was before he met Goku. Cold and without mercy. He also wanted to close the gap power-wise. He ignored Babidi because all he wanted was to fight Goku. That was his one driving force and NOTHING was going to get in the way of that. However, he also chose not to do the evil act of killing kaioshin... and he later seems to still care for Trunks and Bulma... so I take it the influence didn't work as he expected. Goku was right in saying he was lying to himself. He still cared even though he didn't want to. He gained the power-up though.

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:11 am

Bussani wrote: Yeah, that sounds right. He never does anything Babidi says, Babidi just leaves him to his fight with Goku because it serves his purpose. Vegeta commented that his body and soul might be under Babidi's control, but his pride wasn't.

I've seen it translated thusly (and rather humorously, in a dead pan fashion):

V: "I won't be your slave! Even though you've taken over my body and soul, you'll never have my pride."

B: "This has never happened before. He's got a lot of pride."

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:03 am

Horgus wrote:
Bussani wrote: Yeah, that sounds right. He never does anything Babidi says, Babidi just leaves him to his fight with Goku because it serves his purpose. Vegeta commented that his body and soul might be under Babidi's control, but his pride wasn't.

I've seen it translated thusly (and rather humorously, in a dead pan fashion):

V: "I won't be your slave! Even though you've taken over my body and soul, you'll never have my pride."

B: "This has never happened before. He's got a lot of pride."

That's more or less how my Viz copy translates it too. Slightly different wording, but yeah.

The Tori-bot · Post by **The Tori-bot** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:41 am

Bussani wrote:
Horgus wrote:
Bussani wrote: Yeah, that sounds right. He never does anything Babidi says, Babidi just leaves him to his fight with Goku because it serves his purpose. Vegeta commented that his body and soul might be under Babidi's control, but his pride wasn't.

I've seen it translated thusly (and rather humorously, in a dead pan fashion):

V: "I won't be your slave! Even though you've taken over my body and soul, you'll never have my pride."

B: "This has never happened before. He's got a lot of pride."
That's more or less how my Viz copy translates it too. Slightly different wording, but yeah.

Viz V: "I will never be your servant!!! You may take over my body and soul-- but not my pride!!!"

Viz B: "This... has never happened... ...so much pride..."

Guess it's just Toriyama not having that wide of a vocabulary.

saiyanprincess · Post by **saiyanprincess** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:16 pm

So basically Vegeta's pride was actually enough to almost break the curse. He must have had such a motivation to avenge Goku that literally nothing, - not even his mind and body being taken over could stop him. That is actually a brilliant point. I think you are spot on.

On a different note...
Just a guess as to why he was taken over, is he could have been a sort of middle-life crisis. He used to be a space pirate no care of anybody or anything, and then suddenly he has a child and a mate; part of him could have wanted to go back to not having anything to care for, thus no weaknesses. In addition to this he also wanted to fuel and give Goku a reason to fight him once again.

I figured that may have been a trigger to let Bibidi take slight control, Or in Vegeta's eyes not loose control, but give him additional power and revive his dark side.
What I'm trying to say is he could have always had that little bit of control, and perhaps he calculated allowing Bibidi to believe he had been taken over.

I'm probably completely wrong, So please don't yell at me.

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:07 pm

saiyanprincess wrote:Or in Vegeta's eyes not loose control, but give him additional power and revive his dark side.

It's ironic that even during his time as Majin Vegeta, he actually became even less of a dark prince than he was before the charm. He wanted to return to his life as a space pirate, but part of him already knew that it was wrong. It's like Vegeta realized that the life he lost was just a senseless dream - it shows character to accept such a thing as quickly as Vegeta did it.

"I've always wanted to be truly evil again... but now that I'm reliving it, it doesn't seem at all right anymore. Feh, I might as well accept the fact that I'm an Earthling now, with all their 'weak, little emotions'..."