Exactly how strong were the Kaioshin?

Satan-Sama · Post by **Satan-Sama** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:56 pm

I recall East Kaioshin-sama stating that each Kaioshin could have defeated Freeza with a single blow. But what strength of Freeza is he referring to? Freeza's first form, in his heyday or his full power in his final form? Exactly how strong were the Kaioshin? (or more specifically East Kaioshin-sama)

B · Post by B » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:27 pm

Well, they were scared out of there mind of Buu and Dabura, so I'd say Kaioshin's strength was probably a bit higher than the main characters were in the Cell arc.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:37 pm

The North (or South, I always forget) Kaioshin was strong enough to go toe to toe with Kid Boo, so I'd say he's refering to final form Freeza. So although they're all incredibly powerful, their strengths greatly differ since, as mentioned, East Kaioshin was terrified of Dabura, who was about as strong as Cell.

Satan-Sama · Post by **Satan-Sama** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:02 pm

So, I have to ask: was Kaioshin-sama stronger than Piccolo when he forfeited?

Although I realize Piccolo forfeited because he knew the man known as "Shin" wasn't of this dimension and realized something must have been fucked up for him to come to the Budoukai, let alone Earth. I'm just wondering whether or not Piccolo could have defeated Kaioshin-Sama if he tried.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:07 pm

I'm going to say that Supreme Kai was referring to Freeza's first form, second at most, due to two things:

1. Freeza himself says that no-one had even seen his third form before.
2. Supreme Kai is so goddamn incompetent, I wouldn't put it past him to not even know that Freeza could transform.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:04 pm

Rocketman wrote:I'm going to say that Supreme Kai was referring to Freeza's first form, second at most, due to two things:

1. Freeza himself says that no-one had even seen his third form before.
2. Supreme Kai is so goddamn incompetent, I wouldn't put it past him to not even know that Freeza could transform.

Regarding the first point I would say that normal beings outside of the Cold Clan may have never seen Freeza's 3rd-4th Forms but when you got a bunch of peeping toms that can see all over the universe that is another story all together.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:06 pm

Rocketman wrote:I'm going to say that Supreme Kai was referring to Freeza's first form, second at most, due to two things:

1. Freeza himself says that no-one had even seen his third form before.
2. Supreme Kai is so goddamn incompetent, I wouldn't put it past him to not even know that Freeza could transform.

1) That just means Freeza may not have known Kaioshin was watching him. Since Freeza was terrorizing the universe, I would assume Kaioshin was keeping a close eye on him.

2) Fair enough.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:36 pm

Dayspring wrote:
Rocketman wrote:I'm going to say that Supreme Kai was referring to Freeza's first form, second at most, due to two things:

1. Freeza himself says that no-one had even seen his third form before.
2. Supreme Kai is so goddamn incompetent, I wouldn't put it past him to not even know that Freeza could transform.
1) That just means Freeza may not have known Kaioshin was watching him. Since Freeza was terrorizing the universe, I would assume Kaioshin was keeping a close eye on him.

2) Fair enough.

Rocketman has a point though, East Kaioshin didn't seem to know what he was doing half the time. Wasn't he the youngest and least experienced of the bunch before Buu killed/absorbed the rest of them?

Oh also, Rou Dai Kaioshin admits that he isn't that strong. Goku tries to 'test' his strength by firing a ki blast at him and blows the poor guy up. This could be a result of his fusing with the witch, though, since he mentions that he always thought it would be a God that freed him (which would take a lot of strength).

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:16 pm

Dayspring wrote:That just means Freeza may not have known Kaioshin was watching him.

I didn't mean that like "FREEZA SAID NOONE SAW HIM SO HURBLEGURBLEWAH", but that, even if Supreme Kai was watching Freeza, he likely wouldn't know about it because Freeza never uses it and never mentions it.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:42 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Dayspring wrote:That just means Freeza may not have known Kaioshin was watching him.
I didn't mean that like "FREEZA SAID NOONE SAW HIM SO HURBLEGURBLEWAH", but that, even if Supreme Kai was watching Freeza, he likely wouldn't know about it because Freeza never uses it and never mentions it.

He must have used it at least once in private, or how would he even know it was there? Especially if his final form is really his 'true form' which some people believe.

Super Ghost Kamikaze · Post by **Super Ghost Kamikaze** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:49 pm

Whenever someone says "As strong as Previous Villain X", I assume they mean Previous Villain X at their most powerful level. This is because the comment itself is not meant to be a brain teaser or a riddle. The quote itself was not carefully crafted to slide into the puzzle pieces of other quotes to create a divine work of wisdom, placing everyone and each form on scales of power.

The quote is simply meant to show the audience how strong the character is, and it's an offhand thing. Toriyama did not write it going "Well, the 10 year olds that read my comic are going to be able to go back, reference Freeza's quote in issue #### of Shonen Jump, and realize that I really mean 2nd Form Freeza after his fight with Character Y."

It's simple exposition, a silver-polishing scene, to state power without actually having to show it in any meaningful way. This is especially important in Dragon Ball's Freeza through Buu arcs, because the level of power has grown to the point that its difficult to truly measure the scale of it in any meaningful way unless Kaioshin beat the crap out of one of our heroes.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:54 pm

Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:Whenever someone says "As strong as Previous Villain X", I assume they mean Previous Villain X at their most powerful level. This is because the comment itself is not meant to be a brain teaser or a riddle. The quote itself was not carefully crafted to slide into the puzzle pieces of other quotes to create a divine work of wisdom, placing everyone and each form on scales of power.

The quote is simply meant to show the audience how strong the character is, and it's an offhand thing. Toriyama did not write it going "Well, the 10 year olds that read my comic are going to be able to go back, reference Freeza's quote in issue #### of Shonen Jump, and realize that I really mean 2nd Form Freeza after his fight with Character Y."

It's simple exposition, a silver-polishing scene, to state power without actually having to show it in any meaningful way. This is especially important in Dragon Ball's Freeza through Buu arcs, because the level of power has grown to the point that its difficult to truly measure the scale of it in any meaningful way unless Kaioshin beat the crap out of one of our heroes.

This is true. I guess I tend to think of it in vague terms, like if someone says 'as strong as Freeza', I assume the characters from around the Freeza saga level of strength would maybe have some trouble, but anything after that and it'll be easy.

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:01 pm

I've always believed the Supreme Kaio to be insanely ignorant. I mean come on, the man feared Pui-Pui, who Vegeta took out with no effort at all. I don't believe he's as strong as people make him out to be. I'd say he's probably around 3'rd form Freeza's level. For a man watching over the universe he really seems to know very little. I doubt he kept a close eye on Freeza, it would seem that the Kaio of the North did a better job on that and even he didn't know of Freeza's true power. I just can't believe someone who really seems to be so ill informed could know what he was talking about regarding Freeza's power.

Post by **Herms** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:10 pm

Satan-Sama wrote:So, I have to ask: was Kaioshin-sama stronger than Piccolo when he forfeited?

Yes. In the original Piccolo clearly says that Kaioshin is in a different dimension than he is (he says exactly the same thing that Tenshinhan says when he sees Super Saiyan Goku fight, in fact). Viz kind of makes this line a lot vaguer (I think it's something like "he is a different order of being").

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:11 pm

Herms wrote:
Satan-Sama wrote:So, I have to ask: was Kaioshin-sama stronger than Piccolo when he forfeited?
Yes. In the original Piccolo clearly says that Kaioshin is in a different dimension than he is (he says exactly the same thing that Tenshinhan says when he sees Super Saiyan Goku fight, in fact). Viz kind of makes this line a lot vaguer (I think it's something like "he is a different order of being").

If that's the case, he's almost certainly stronger than any form of Freeza then. Piccolo fused with Kami was beyond the strength of a regular Super Saiyajin.

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:17 pm

Like I said, I don't think that's possible. He nearly pissed his pants at the sight of Pui-Pui, who Vegeta took out in seconds. I don't think there can be THAT big of a different between Base Vegeta and Piccolo even at this point in the series.

B · Post by B » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:31 pm

Gozar wrote:Like I said, I don't think that's possible. He nearly pissed his pants at the sight of Pui-Pui, who Vegeta took out in seconds. I don't think there can be THAT big of a different between Base Vegeta and Piccolo even at this point in the series.

Vegeta had been training in high gravity since Post-Frieza arc; I wolud say Base form Vegeta at the Buu arc probably wouldn't have trouble with Piccolo at all. Vegeta is pretty much a whole different entity between those two sagas because of his desire to surpass the Son family.

SSJ2bardock · Post by **SSJ2bardock** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:41 pm

B wrote:
Gozar wrote:Like I said, I don't think that's possible. He nearly pissed his pants at the sight of Pui-Pui, who Vegeta took out in seconds. I don't think there can be THAT big of a different between Base Vegeta and Piccolo even at this point in the series.
Vegeta had been training in high gravity since Post-Frieza arc; I wolud say Base form Vegeta at the Buu arc probably wouldn't have trouble with Piccolo at all. Vegeta is pretty much a whole different entity between those two sagas because of his desire to surpass the Son family.

Piccolo was training too, he's always training.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:41 pm

Pui-pui was slowed down by 10x normal gravity. I think he was a lot weaker than Freeza. Kaioshin probably once again didn't know exactly what he was talking about.

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:01 pm

I think if Piccolo didn't freak out about him being at the top of the god hierchy, he could've taken him.

But yeah, Kaioshin said he hadn't kept tabs on Earth and that part of the galaxy so much.