Can Androids 17 and 18..

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:41 am

Rocketman wrote:
Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Preconceived notions aside, what makes you think that's impossible?
Humans don't gain power that fast.

That seems like an assumption on your part...

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:54 am

Uub....He's humen.

I said catch up. Uub doesn't count.

He's not a normal human anyway.

Additionally, we have no idea how strong Ten is by the Buu saga, he could very well have surpassed #18 for all we know.

Considering that that would require him to be many many many times stronger than any of the base Saiya-jins (not to mention being stronger than 100% Freeza).... no he couldn't.

Preconceived notions aside, what makes you think that's impossible?

Because not even a Saiya-jin can do that, and they're already shown to be way stronger than the humans in the first place.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:46 pm

To answer the question: No, they can't get stronger, since they're powered-up by cybernetics, no amount of training is going to increase their "Infinite Energy Reactor" power.

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:06 pm

Xyex wrote:Considering that that would require him to be many many many times stronger than any of the base Saiya-jins (not to mention being stronger than 100% Freeza).... no he couldn't.

You seem to forget Trunks and Goten (post-ROSAT) were both stronger than Freeza in their base forms in the recent Abo/Cado special.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:15 pm

Horgus wrote:You seem to forget Trunks and Goten (post-ROSAT) were both stronger than Freeza in their base forms in the recent Abo/Cado special.

No they weren't. They were losing, so they fused.

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:18 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:
Horgus wrote:You seem to forget Trunks and Goten (post-ROSAT) were both stronger than Freeza in their base forms in the recent Abo/Cado special.
No they weren't. They were losing, so they fused.

Abo/Cado were both stated to be as strong as Freeza.

Goten/Trunks were both winning handily against Abo and Cado, go rewatch the special.

They only fused in response to Abo and Cado fusing.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:18 pm

Horgus wrote:You seem to forget Trunks and Goten (post-ROSAT) were both stronger than Freeza in their base forms in the recent Abo/Cado special.

Then the special is wrong.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:50 pm

Yeah, I goofed, been a while. Still, base Goten and Trunks can't possibly be as powerful as Freeza at his best. As for the special:

Nobody in the universe but a select few even knew that Freeza could transform, much less about the unfathomable amount of power he was capable of in his final form. It's extreeemely unlikely that any comparisons to Freeza by Tarble would be referring to ANYTHING but his first form's 500,000 or so, or maybe his second form capping out at about a million.

When Goku commented that the boys would be a good match for someone of Freeza's strength, whether he knew or cared which form of Freeza that was... He knew the boys were capable of going Super Saiyan. Super Saiyans can smack Freeza around easy.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:06 pm

Xyex wrote:Considering that that would require him to be many many many times stronger than any of the base Saiya-jins (not to mention being stronger than 100% Freeza).... no he couldn't.

The base Saiyans are arguably stronger than Freeza in the Boo arc (and #18), so...

Because not even a Saiya-jin can do that, and they're already shown to be way stronger than the humans in the first place.

Who told you that base Saiyans can't do that?

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:07 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote: Nobody in the universe but a select few even knew that Freeza could transform, much less about the unfathomable amount of power he was capable of in his final form.

While I personally think he was referring to his final form, all we can do is speculate.

Rocketman wrote: Then the special is wrong.

I have to wonder what the point is in discussing something when you can arbitrarily decide what's valid and invalid, what applies and what doesn't. It's a little silly in my opinion.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:26 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:The base Saiyans are arguably stronger than Freeza in the Boo arc (and #18), so...

Not when the abnormally-large near-death boosts that allowed them to 'cheat' their way up to the LOW millions during the Freeza arc no longer exist, or went back to 'normal' rates so low that they practically shouldn't bother existing.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:53 pm

You seem to forget Trunks and Goten (post-ROSAT) were both stronger than Freeza in their base forms in the recent Abo/Cado special.

Abo and Cado =/= 100% Freeza. At best, individually, they're equal to 1st form Freeza. Tarble doesn't know about Freeza's transformations so 1st Form is the only one he could be comparing them too.

Abo/Cado were both stated to be as strong as Freeza.

Goten/Trunks were both winning handily against Abo and Cado, go rewatch the special.

Yes, because they're considerably stronger than 1st Form Freeza.

The base Saiyans are arguably stronger than Freeza in the Boo arc (and #18), so...

No they're not. No base Saiya-jin is ever shown to be stronger than Freeza. Pui Pui thought 10x gravity would be a help and 18 held back on "Mighty Mask" thinking it was a stronger than normal human.

Who told you that base Saiyans can't do that?

Logic and what we see in the series.

While I personally think he was referring to his final form, all we can do is speculate.

He can't be referring to a form he doesn't even know exists.

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:11 pm

Xyex wrote: Abo and Cado =/= 100% Freeza. At best, individually, they're equal to 1st form Freeza. Tarble doesn't know about Freeza's transformations so 1st Form is the only one he could be comparing them too.

Again, you're speculating. Goku literally said (something along the lines of) 'Freeza.. in retrospect, not much of a foe.'

Why would he be referring to Freeza's first form, a form he didn't even see?

It's FAR more likely he meant Freeza's full strength, because he never said anything contrary to that.

Besides, why is it so unlikely that their base forms couldn't be as strong as Freeza after RoSAT training? Given that we don't know exactly how strong they are after the training, it cannot be completely disregarded.

Xyex wrote:He can't be referring to a form he doesn't even know exists.

How do you know Tarble never saw Freeza's final form? You don't, you're just speculating.

Do you think that everyone would remain ignorant of Freeza's final form and true strength literally YEARS after his defeat?

The Tori-bot · Post by **The Tori-bot** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:22 pm

Horgus wrote: How do you know Tarble never saw Freeza's final form? You don't, you're just speculating.

How could he have seen Freeza's final form? He states that Piccolo, Kuririn, Gohan and Vegeta will be "the first to witness" his third form, which means that if no one has seen his third form before, then no one would have seen his fourth form, either.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:05 pm

Again, you're speculating. Goku literally said (something along the lines of) 'Freeza.. in retrospect, not much of a foe.'

Why would he be referring to Freeza's first form, a form he didn't even see?

It's FAR more likely he meant Freeza's full strength, because he never said anything contrary to that.

That's not even the right quote. Goku's going off of what Tarble said. Why would Tarble be referring to a form of Freeza he doesn't even know exists? Tarble is the one that compares them to Freeza. Not Goku.

Besides, why is it so unlikely that their base forms couldn't be as strong as Freeza after RoSAT training? Given that we don't know exactly how strong they are after the training, it cannot be completely disregarded.

Because that would make them many many many many times stronger than their fathers. And they're not. Did you even see the Freeza and Android sagas? Freeza was all about how Freeza is the most powerful person in the unvierse, how no one could stand up to him, and how Super Saiya-jin is the only way to defeat Freeza and how no on, not even a Saiya-jin, could other wise catch him.

The Androids was all about making SSJ better. Improving the Super Saiya-jin form itself. All of the power growth seen in the Android and Cell sagas was made via improvement of SSJ. At best the base Saiya-jins increased in power three or four times between Namek and the Cell games. That's (by my lists) 6 to 8 million. The absolute maximum they could logical gain in the following seven years is 5 fold, and that's still less than half of 100% Freeza's power, and really pushing it.

How do you know Tarble never saw Freeza's final form? You don't, you're just speculating.

No it's not, it's stated. Freeza only transformed into his 2nd form once in his entire life. No one but his father had ever seen his third or final forms prior to Namek. And there were no Namek's left when Freeza started transforming, no one to witness his higher forms or power, save for Dende. And Tarble even thought that Vegeta beat Freeza which means that even if the Nameks had seen them or learned of them he didn't stick around long enough to get the details.

Do you think that everyone would remain ignorant of Freeza's final form and true strength literally YEARS after his defeat?

Who would tell? Dende was the only one other than the Z Fighters to see more than his 1st form. At most he'd tell the other Nameks but who would they tell? Tarble visited them long enough to get directions to Vegeta's location and that was it. It's not like the Nameks are big interplanetary travelers and are going to tell everyone they meet about the fight between Freeza and Goku.

The Tori-bot · Post by **The Tori-bot** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:12 pm

Xyex wrote:And Tarble even thought that Vegeta beat Freeza

Actually, that's a translation slip-up... he said something more along the lines of "you guys", not just "you" as in Vegeta.

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:47 pm

Xyex wrote: That's not even the right quote. Goku's going off of what Tarble said. Why would Tarble be referring to a form of Freeza he doesn't even know exists? Tarble is the one that compares them to Freeza. Not Goku.

Tarble says Abo and Cado have reached Freeza's strength. Given that Goku does not contradict Tarble's statement that they are both at Freeza's strength, and by stating that the kids are more than a match for them individually, isn't this proof that the kids have surpassed Freeza in their bases?

I understand your desire to deflate the gains in power made during the Cell saga, but the ROSAT throws all logical reasoning out the window.

Because that would make them many many many many times stronger than their fathers. And they're not.

Given that their fathers went through YEARS of training in the ROSAT, while the kids spent merely a few weeks in there, I think not. I don't even know how you logically thought that I thought the kids were stronger than their dads.

The Androids was all about making SSJ better. Improving the Super Saiya-jin form itself. All of the power growth seen in the Android and Cell sagas was made via improvement of SSJ. At best the base Saiya-jins increased in power three or four times between Namek and the Cell games. That's (by my lists) 6 to 8 million. The absolute maximum they could logical gain in the following seven years is 5 fold, and that's still less than half of 100% Freeza's power, and really pushing it.

Oh I understand, but I disagree with any thinking that major gains were not made to their base forms. Any attempt to try and ascribe numbers after the stated figures is just silly, and I won't attempt to debate them with you, as that would be a waste of time.

No it's not, it's stated. Freeza only transformed into his 2nd form once in his entire life. No one but his father had ever seen his third or final forms prior to Namek. And there were no Namek's left when Freeza started transforming, no one to witness his higher forms or power, save for Dende. And Tarble even thought that Vegeta beat Freeza which means that even if the Nameks had seen them or learned of them he didn't stick around long enough to get the details.

Did you forget the years spent on Earth by basically the entire Namekian race? Do you think they would accept their planet being blown up and their race being wiped out by a genocidal tyrant without being given so much as an explanation of the facts? The Nameks would have known about Freeza's final form, and Tarble probably would have learned of it as well.

It's not like the Nameks are big interplanetary travelers and are going to tell everyone they meet about the fight between Freeza and Goku.

Then how did Nappa and Vegeta know what race Piccolo was? They had to have some kind of links with other races.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:06 pm

Tarble says Abo and Cado have reached Freeza's strength. Given that Goku does not contradict Tarble's statement that they are both at Freeza's strength, and by stating that the kids are more than a match for them individually, isn't this proof that the kids have surpassed Freeza in their bases?

Why would Goku contradict Tarble before the fight's even really started? He doesn't know if Avo and Cado could hold back their powers or not. He has no reason to disagree with Tarble about their power until he's seen everything they can do. Beyond that, Goku knows they have SSJ. Why would it matter if their bases are comparable to Freeza. For that matter, if their base is comprable to Freeza then he wouldn't call Avo and Cado a good match for them because as SSJs they'd be 50x more powerful than that. Which is far from a 'good match'.

I understand your desire to deflate the gains in power made during the Cell saga, but the ROSAT throws all logical reasoning out the window.

What deflating? The RoSaT isn't some magic place that exponentially increases your power while you sit around twidling your thumbs. Trunks and Vegeta trained to improve SSJ while in the RoSaT. They worked on obtaining the SSJU levels. Gohan and Goku trained to improve SSJ while in the RoSaT. They worked on mastering SSJ. Base levels aren't even a factor here, they would have barely increased at all during their time in the RoSaT. 99% of the power gained is through improving SSJ. Bases are still pretty damned small (compared to Freeza and everyone after him) even at the Cell Games. As I said, I highly doubt even Gohan's base was over 10 million at the Cell Games.

Given that their fathers went through YEARS of training in the ROSAT, while the kids spent merely a few weeks in there, I think not. I don't even know how you logically thought that I thought the kids were stronger than their dads.

I didn't say they were, you did. Base Goten and Base Trunks being stronger than Freeza would require them being stronger than Base Goku and Base Vegeta.

Oh I understand, but I disagree with any thinking that major gains were not made to their base forms. Any attempt to try and ascribe numbers after the stated figures is just silly, and I won't attempt to debate them with you, as that would be a waste of time.

Why would the bases improve if they're improving SSJ? They're not making SSJ stronger, they're making it more effective, making it yield much greater power than it would normally give. That's all.

Did you forget the years spent on Earth by basically the entire Namekian race? Do you think they would accept their planet being blown up and their race being wiped out by a genocidal tyrant without being given so much as an explanation of the facts? The Nameks would have known about Freeza's final form, and Tarble probably would have learned of it as well.

Uh, no. Tarble didn't know anything about the battle on Namek, as was shown by his remarks on Earth. He got directions to Vegeta, that's it.

Then how did Nappa and Vegeta know what race Piccolo was? They had to have some kind of links with other races.

They know what world Namek is because they travel around a lot. Just because they know where it is doesn't mean they interact with them. I know where Russia is and I've never talked to a Russian.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:08 pm

I agree with Xyex for the most part. I still haven't completely worked out how I think SSJ and FPSSJ all work yet, but the simple fact is that they multiply your power greatly. You don't need to make drastic improvements to your base form when you have the Super Saiyajin forms because even a small increase would translate to a large one. They don't even use their base forms in serious fights often once Super Saiyajin comes into play, unless you count GT. And as Xyex says, most of the power boosts in the Cell arc came from improving and 'going beyond' Super Saiyajin.

I also just wanted to add that Tarble didn't even know what a Super Saiyajin was when he saw it, so I doubt he had all the facts.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:01 pm

Bussani wrote:I agree with Xyex for the most part. I still haven't completely worked out how I think SSJ and FPSSJ all work yet, but the simple fact is that they multiply your power greatly. You don't need to make drastic improvements to your base form when you have the Super Saiyajin forms because even a small increase would translate to a large one. They don't even use their base forms in serious fights often once Super Saiyajin comes into play, unless you count GT. And as Xyex says, most of the power boosts in the Cell arc came from improving and 'going beyond' Super Saiyajin.

I also just wanted to add that Tarble didn't even know what a Super Saiyajin was when he saw it, so I doubt he had all the facts.

I agree with the above, Daizenshuu #7 states:

In addition to the outward signs of the transformation such as an aura, golden hair that stands straight up, and sharp, hawk-like eyes with emerald-green pupils, a battle power 50 times that of normal are proof of the legendary mightiest warrior.

In addition to this, the Dragonball GT Perfect Files says it more explicitly according to Herms.