How come Tien wasn't in the Buu Saga much?

Wojak · Post by **Wojak** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:10 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Wojak wrote:Piccolo merged with Kami, whom he hated intensely.
I doubt that he wouldn't take the opportunity to learn the technique if it wasn't effective enough for him.
And also, Tenshinhan never learned it. Maybe he wasn't measured as capable enough.
Piccolo was there for six days. He didn't have time to learn it.

Yeah, because of that we have learned that Piccolo is not that intelligent and also is a slow learner.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:20 pm

Wojak wrote:
Rocketman wrote:
Wojak wrote:Piccolo merged with Kami, whom he hated intensely.
I doubt that he wouldn't take the opportunity to learn the technique if it wasn't effective enough for him.
And also, Tenshinhan never learned it. Maybe he wasn't measured as capable enough.
Piccolo was there for six days. He didn't have time to learn it.
Yeah, because of that we have learned that Piccolo is not that intelligent and also is a slow learner.

I just don't think he was interested in Kaio's training. He'd rather do things his own way.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:32 pm

Um, didn't Kaio explicitly state he didn't want to risk Piccolo learning the Kaioken, since Piccolo was still a badguy helping by convenience and all?
And didn't Ten explicitly state he didn't want to use the Kaioken the way Goku did, since he'd just remain a step behind?

We're arguing power levels. Why? It is flat-out impossible to do power levels beyond Namek according to the Daizenshuu, and even then...
Ten held down Semi-perfect Cell. Does anyone want to argue that Ten was as strong as Cell at that point?

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:37 pm

Tenshinhan didn't actually damage Cell at all. His possibly-KaioKen-fueled Kikoho just pushed him back a bit. It did little more to Cell than annoy him.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:46 pm

Not only that, Kikoho is different to most attacks. It's far more powerful than a normal special technique at that person's level, since it uses almost all of your body's ki. It's almost like self destructing, but directing it all forward in kiai form rather than actually blowing up.

And yeah, still all it did was hold Cell still.

temujin · Post by **temujin** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:34 am

Rocketman wrote:
temujin wrote:
Rocketman wrote: That would put him around one million and still useless.
And that is your opinion.
Then tell me yours, clucky.

Ok,buddy.
I think it is impossible to know,however i saw endless debates about this and both sides made good points.
However,considering that Tenshinhan felt Freeza's supressed pl when he came to the earth and considering that piccolo told them to stay away if they couldn't reach a considerable amount of power during those 3 years i think the guy had millions in the cell saga,simply, Toriyama in my mind didn't care about these kind of things.
In my mind, there is no reason to train and show up if you are out of the big league= millions.
It is explicit for me that Tenshinhan expected to be useful.
Meaning that Tenshinhan with the right number (and kaioken) could defeat A-19 or A-20 and be useful in that saga,but the truth is that we don't have any reference, a single number to measure the fighters.
Just remember,some years ago many fans believed that base goku against Freeza had a pl of 300.000 and 3 million would be illogical,however,today
we know that base goku had indeed 3millions.
You see,nobody can prove anything,because the references are too vague.
But when i look to the story i just can't see those guys showing up with a pl out of the millions.
I believe he just made them strong and that's it.
It is my personal opinion,i can be wrong,i can be correct.
It is a shame that Akira Toriyama doesn't care.
After so many years,nobody is asking specific numbers,but just simple answers.
I guess they enjoy these kind of debates.
I don't.
Finally,look what happened in the new special Tenshinhan is out,i mean he is like Nam,a former enemy and foe who got excluded from the Z team after Cell saga when he realized that he couldn't be useful to the team anymore.
Regardless he shows up in Buu's saga doing something useful against someone out of his league.

It would make sense a fight against someone like Pui Pui,but it seems Toriyama enjoys to leave the doubt about his story.

Toriyama had many opportunities to answer all these questions.
Greetings!

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:17 pm

It does seem unlikely that someone could gain so much power in 3-4 years (although we don't know how much he powered up with King Kai either), but it seems to me that Tenshinhan might have been at least close to Goku and Vegeta's base forms at that point. It was Super Saiyajin that really put them ahead.

Piccolo Daimao · Post by **Piccolo Daimao** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:48 am

Rocketman wrote:
Saiyan-Professor wrote:How do you come to that conclusion?
1. Tenshinhan dies a little above 1000.
2. He trains on King Kai's for about 2/3 of a year.
-Goku got a 20x increase from training for five or six months; for the sake of simplicitly, I shall assume Tenshinhan's longer training and higher start balances out him not being Saiyan and say he got a 20x increase too.
3. Tenshinhan comes back to Earth about 20,000.
-He trains for the Androids, but he trains alone/with Chiaotzu and without any other aid.
4. Arrives to fight the Androids at 30,000.
-Kaioken x10 = 300,000.

So I was wrong. He wouldn't even get near one million.

Seriously? So, Tenshinhan's still under 1 million, yet he can produce an attack that can hold back Semi-Perfect Cell? Sorry, I don't believe that.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:56 am

Piccolo Daimao wrote:Seriously? So, Tenshinhan's still under 1 million, yet he can produce an attack that can hold back Semi-Perfect Cell? Sorry, I don't believe that.

Yep, just like Piccolo could knock Final Form Freeza away, or SSJ Kid Trunks could knock away Fat Buu.

B · Post by B » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:09 pm

16 grappled Perfect Cell.

Yamcha_krillin · Post by **Yamcha_krillin** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:37 pm

I believe that Tien is definitely above a 1,000,000 even above 10 million in the Android saga.He's done such a hard training and improved so much that he was abel to perform and create the Shin-Kikoho.

I agree wih tejumin too.For Tien to come to help to beat someone stated to be stronger then Freeza if he is not atleast in the millions is stupid.He was also abel to sense the power of Freeza so if he wasn't atleast close to that level then it was stupid for him to show up

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:49 pm

Yamcha_krillin wrote:He was also abel to sense the power of Freeza so if he wasn't atleast close to that level then it was stupid for him to show up

Chiaotzu and Bulma also show up.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:09 pm

You meant Puar and Bulma, right? Chaozu wasn't allowed to come.

And Tien arriving means jack. Yamcha and Krillin did, too.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:13 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:You meant Puar and Bulma, right? Chaozu wasn't allowed to come.

Chiaotzu wasn't there for Freeza's arrival? I thought he was.

ShinRogafuken · Post by **ShinRogafuken** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:28 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:You meant Puar and Bulma, right? Chaozu wasn't allowed to come.
Chiaotzu wasn't there for Freeza's arrival? I thought he was.

Yeah he was actually. But Puar was there too, alongside Bulma.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:35 pm

Rocketman wrote:Chiaotzu wasn't there for Freeza's arrival? I thought he was.

My bad, Rocket. I thought this was about the Android saga, since Yamcha_Krillin said Tien arrived to fight an enemy stronger then Freeza.

Yamcha_krillin · Post by **Yamcha_krillin** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:13 pm

Tien showing up means a lot.He sensed Freeza,he knows that these new enemys are stronger then Freeza and the Saiyans who are again stronger then Freeza.Yet he thinks that he can help out and he wantes to fight these new enemys, and going by some of you he has a pl below a million.That's insane and i will never accept that.It's the same case for Yamcha and Krillin

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:23 pm

I would be surprised if during the fight with the cyborgs, both yamcha and kuririn had a power level greater than 1 million.

Especially yamcha.

Just can`t see them being as strong or stronger than second form freeza.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:38 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:Seriously? So, Tenshinhan's still under 1 million, yet he can produce an attack that can hold back Semi-Perfect Cell? Sorry, I don't believe that.

He used several Shin Kikohos. Kikoho itself is an attack that's far more powerful than a normal ki attack since it uses so much of your ki at once. It's almost like self destructing, but directing it towards your opponent. Shin Kikoho is presumably even better than that.

And even though he held him back, he practically killed himself in the process and literally didn't even put a scratch on Semi-Perfect Cell. It was a desperation/suicide move.

Yamcha_krillin wrote:I believe that Tenshinhan is definitely above a 1,000,000 even above 10 million in the Android saga.He's done such a hard training and improved so much that he was abel to perform and create the Shin-Kikoho.

What exactly was this 'hard training'? I'll buy that he could have improved a lot while spending that extra time with Kaio-sama, but after that? Goku and Vegeta go through ridiculous gravity training. What does Tenshinhan do? Even with Goku and Vegeta doing the intense training they do, even they wouldn't be that much stronger without Super Saiyajin transformations.

In short, for Tenshinhan to catch up that much he would have to have surpassed Super Saiyajin -- essentially become stronger than Goku or Vegeta's base forms, which seems ridiculous to me. Especially since people aren't even sure if surpassing Super Saiyajin was possible when it was first decided.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:23 pm

Yamcha_krillin wrote:Tenshinhan showing up means a lot.He sensed Freeza,he knows that these new enemys are stronger then Freeza and the Saiyans who are again stronger then Freeza.Yet he thinks that he can help out and he wantes to fight these new enemys, and going by some of you he has a pl below a million.That's insane and i will never accept that.It's the same case for Yamcha and Krillin

Because Tien, being the warrior he was, would really stay at home while his allies would be fighting for the planet? Seriously.

I don't really care what Tien's power level is, but he went to the Cell Games to be alongside his allies, and he was nowhere near as powerful as any of the Super Saiyans or Piccolo. You also don't know how hard he trained, since he's just shown punching.

Being an ally to people you fight alongside=/=Being above a certain level of power just because

That's what it all comes down to.

Kanzenshuu

How come Tien wasn't in the Buu Saga much?

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