Instances in Movie 5 removing its "canonity?"

[jjgp1112]

@jjgp1112: You can fit movies 11 and 12 in one of the alternate timelines, as well, because at least one of these unfolds relatively similar to the main timeline. Here's how:

The Trunks that was killed by Cell traveled to and returned from a different "past" than that which we see. This new past has been warned about the cyborgs, Goku got his medicine and there's no Cell (at least no mature version ).
So, this timeline could very well contain movies 11 and 12.

Damn, I never thought about it that way. You can pretty much use the alternate timeline explanation for pretty much any non-canon movie past Movie 6.

[Rocketman]

Movie 8 logically could fit in the story

Except Goku and Gohan aren't Full Power Super Saiyans.

[Kaboom]

Movie 8 logically could fit in the story

Except Goku and Gohan aren't Full Power Super Saiyans.

Not to mention that even IF it took place in the week prior to the Cell Games... the world should be almost completely shut down in panic, not conducting school interviews and having cherry blossom picnics en masse.

[Dayspring]

Nevermind the fact Movie 6 makes no sense at all, in terms of when it's supposed to take place.

And though I haven't seen movies 7-11, What is Future Trunks doing there?

Movie 7 is a BEAUTIFUL example of TOEI taking the time to tweak their scripts so it can work with continuity (of sorts). It takes place after adroids #17 and #18 are defeated, but completely ignores Cell. It even explains why #13, #14, and #15 are the villains: in this continuity, Gero's hatred was absorbed by the computer in the basement, which dropped everything (ie: Cell), to fix the problems with the other three androids in order to more quickly take revenge on Goku and co. The changes work so perfectly, that a lot of people, myself included, take movie 7 as part of the unseen fourth timeline.

Movie 8 could also work in the fourth timeline if you ignore movie 7: no future Cell means USSJ Vegeta took out the Anroids. This takes place while they're celebrating their victory. Most people don't use this, despite it fitting more easily than movie 7, since it would make it impossible for Future Cell to kill Trunks and steal the time machine.

Minor tweaking could also make it take place while Piccolo is in the ROSAT training for Cell (hence why he shows up only later in the movie), but as it currently stands, it's unlikely that they'd all leave Earth.

Movie 9 takes place 8 months to a year after Trunks killed his androids, but prior to killing his timeline's Cell. This makes it impossible to work with the manga, but not with the anime. In the manga, Trunks makes one trip: after killing Cell. In the anime, it's not impossible for Trunks to have made trips inbetween, as long as at least 8 months go by (the time needed to recharge the time machine). Movie 9's aged appearance (but not as aged as Future-Cell era Trunks) and long hair implies that this was the case. The fact that Trunks is mentioned to have killed his androids, but nothing is mentioned about Cell, just helps this work even more-so.

Movie 10 doesn't work because it's a sequel to movie 8. If you take movie 8 to take place during the 10 days prior to the Cell Games, then movie 10 has to take place at least 3 months prior to the 25th budokai, which simply doesn't work. If you feel movie 8 takes place in the 4th Timeline, it takes place during the month leading up to the 25th budokai. However, it can't because Goku doesn't die in the 4th timeline if that's the case (meanwhile, he's dead in movie 10).

Movie 11 doesn't work because it's a sequel to movie 10. It can't work at all in the main continuity since it takes place the day after the budokai. If you argue that it's in timeline 4, you suffer the same problems as movie 10.

[Kingdom Heartless]

But how could movie 12 fit into that continuity?

If you're talking about ignoring Buu, then Vegeta wouldn't have been dead and Gotenks more than likely wouldn't exist.

And I'm pretty sure they mentioned Buu.

Or did you mean it some other way?

[Kaboom]

Movie 12 would work best if Gotenks or Gohan managed to take out Fat or Super Buu. Goku and Vegeta would remain dead, and even if Gotenks had beaten Buu, Gohan still would have finished his ritual with the Old Kai anyway and then been sent back to Earth. Goku would still have used SSj3 to fight Fat Buu prior to that, hence his mentioning it to Janemba.

[Rocketman]

Movie 12 would work best if Gotenks or Gohan managed to take out Fat or Super Buu. Goku and Vegeta would remain dead, and even if Gotenks had beaten Buu, Gohan still would have finished his ritual with the Old Kai anyway and then been sent back to Earth. Goku would still have used SSj3 to fight Fat Buu prior to that, hence his mentioning it to Janemba.

Doesn't Gohan go Super at one point?

[Kaboom]

Doesn't Gohan go Super at one point?

In movie 12? Nope.

[Kingdom Heartless]

Movie 12 would work best if Gotenks or Gohan managed to take out Fat or Super Buu. Goku and Vegeta would remain dead, and even if Gotenks had beaten Buu, Gohan still would have finished his ritual with the Old Kai anyway and then been sent back to Earth. Goku would still have used SSj3 to fight Fat Buu prior to that, hence his mentioning it to Janemba.

But then it couldn't work in the same continuity as Movie 11, right?

[Kaboom]

But then it couldn't work in the same continuity as Movie 11, right?

Oh, I missed that part. I was just talking about it fitting into the series in general.

[Kingdom Heartless]

Ah, fair enough.

But I like your explanation of how it would fit.

[Dayspring]

Ah, fair enough.

But I like your explanation of how it would fit.

It is the most logical. It should also be noted that movie 12 acts as a sequel to movies 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, and 9 (and possibly 6, 7, and 11). In other words, movie 12 reeeeaaally can't place.

[Onikage725]

Which throws up even more questions about Coola's strength and Goku's strength. However, Goku's transformation is consistent with that of a "first-timer" (flashing in and out, etc) whereas by that point he should be able to transform instantaneously.

EDIT: Also, Coola is all about avenging Freeza's Namek defeat. If it's post his and Cold's deaths, he'd have slightly different concerns on his mind.

Well, keeping in mind that the movie isn't based on the manga or directly handled by Toriyama, you have to accept a different asthetic with certain aspects. One could easily argue that Goku had those flashy effects as he went SSJ because he was so badly injured (our one in-series comparison was when he faced Trunks, and he was obviously in perfect health). Super Saiyan is a strain, hence the whole point of later mastering it in the RoSaT. Any strain is going to be amplified if you just spent 5 minutes being beaten within an inch of your life. Think of it this way- when a Super Saiyan is rendered unconscious, they revert to normal right? Goku had been beaten senseless, so it stands to reason that 30 seconds after opening his eyes he might still be a little sluggish.

As for the second part, I just assume Coola didn't know about his father's death and Trunks and all that. Freeza vs Goku was fairly well known in Freeza's empire, at least according to anime filler (which can certainly be considered when discussing a movie). They showed us guys with long-range scanners tracking the fight. There were also weaker guys, like the ones who Ginyu screwed around with, who may have survived or been elsewhere and left when the shit hit the fan. Either way, somehow Cold knew what happened and Coola eventually heard too. However, Cold, upon investigation, found his still living son and set for Earth right after fixing him up. All he had with him was one ship. All of his men were slain by Trunks, his ship was destroyed, he and Freeza were killed... who would have been around to fill Coola in on the little details? All Coola would likely have to go on was "Freeza fought a Super Saiyan from Earth on Namek and lost."

[Satan-Sama]

The movies aren't canon, none of them are! I hate when people continuously try to fit them in somehow, stop its not possible! There is no possible way any of them can fit. Just enjoy the movies for what they are.

[B-kun]

Goku mentions Majin Buu and has Super Saiyan Three in movie 12. In the Japanese version, btw. I haven't even touched the dub.

[Onikage725]

The movies aren't canon, none of them are! I hate when people continuously try to fit them in somehow, stop its not possible! There is no possible way any of them can fit. Just enjoy the movies for what they are.

...there's no need to yell.

That stance isn't even correct. I respect that opinion, but it is just that. Movie 9, for example, would fit just fine as it happens in a blank spot in the series and doesn't contradict prior or following events. The closest I've heard is people bickering about Trunks having long hair but Chi Chi wasn't showing with Goten. Having just recently having a son, I can say my girlfriend didn't start to noticeably show until almost 6 months. And 5.5 months (or less) is more than enough time to grow his hair out.

Movie 1, outside of one glaring aspect, can fit. So you can just call that bit what it is- a plot hole. There are plot holes in the main series, but you don't necessarily negate the entire episode or story arc from consideration because of it. Strictly speaking from the anime (and in none of these examples am I suggesting the movies necessarily work with the manga, though 9 still could), Movie 1 is the basis for an entire saga. A clip from it is shown in flashback. Regard it (and disregard it, as many often do) as filler, but the fact remains that within anime continuity Toei said it happened.

And there's Movie 13, which really doesn't contradict anything. We can gripe all we want about how could that possibly Future Trunks' sword, but that is really just speculation. The movie doesn't flat out say it (though the end credits do seem to imply it). But regardless of what may or may not have happened in the ruined future, in the main anime timeline Trunks ends Z without a sword and starts GT with one. Him receiving one in Movie 13 helps continuity more than it hurts it.

[jjgp1112]

The movies aren't canon, none of them are! I hate when people continuously try to fit them in somehow, stop its not possible! There is no possible way any of them can fit. Just enjoy the movies for what they are.

...Except you can...Calm down. You're not listening to what anyone's saying, you're just yelling. If you read Dayspring's post you'd see how silly you look.

[mister yummy]

I love trying to wedge the movies into anbime continuity. If you allow for things like animation errors(They forgot to draw halos), and liberal use of Baba's "dead person gets to go back to Earth for a day" ability, I can make them all fit. I usually don't go that far, though, and a few slip into alternate timelines.

Without going to any extreemes like that, I can fit movies 1, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 12, and 13 into continuity. Movie 6 requires a "The narrator lied" though.

Movies 2, 3, and 4 all fit into the same alternate timeline. In this timeline, no one dies fighting with Nappa and Vegita, and no one mentions that Piccolo is a Namek, hence no one goes to Namek until much later, allowing a few more years for villians to come to Earth.

Movie 7 is in an alternate timeline where they shut 17 & 18 down with the remote.

Movie 11, I've only watched this one once, and I don't really know what to do with it.

Now, for how they fit...

Movie 1 takes place at least a year before the Arrival of Radditz. Kurillin either doesn't realise that Gohan is Goku's son, or simply forgets in the time before he sees him again. He did take a massive shot to the head that day, after all. Likewise for Bulma.

Movie 5 takes place during the early part of the 3 years training before the Androids show up. They can take a break, can't they? Gohan got a hair cut, and his tail grows back sometimes. Goku didn't transform immmidiately for the training benefits. How often will someone as strong as Coola show up to fight with, after all. It makes for good training. When Goku starts getting whipped bad, he transforms at the first opportunity.

Movie 6 is iffy, but it fits in toward the end of the 3 years training for the androids. The narrator is either mistaken, or he lies when he says Dende is Kami already. Perhaps he got too far ahead in the manga. How do they get ahold of Dende and Find New Namek you ask? King Kai works well for stuff like this. No one but Goku sees Vegita's transformation, and he's the only one who didn't see it against #19.

Movie 8 is in the 10 days before the Cell Games. Goku isn't a Super Saiya-jin because Chi-Chi made him change back for the interview. She might have threatened to not make him anymore food or something. Gohan, alas, goes out of character and cheats.

Movie 9 is after the Cell Games. I've not actually seen it. Trunks's hair can grow, and, if he's like his mother, it can grow randomly.

Movie 10 is after Gohan teaches Videl to fly and before the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai. Videl was asked to babysit for Trunks and Goten for the weekend or whatever for whatever reason, and they decide a good way to pass the time is to search for the Dragonballs. Videl never actually sees just how strong everyone is, and never sees any Super Saiya-jin transformations. She's passed out all that time. No wish was made on the Dragonballs, and Goku wasn't actually there any more than he was when Gohan killed Cell. Perhaps a ghostly apparition came along to inspire Gohan and Goten, and Brolli saw it too. The dragonballs scattered on their own, for some reason.

On a side note, it always annoys me when people say this can't fit soley because the first Brolli movie can't fit. Why would his apperance in that movie preclude his existance? Goku was in movie 8, but he still exists. It's simply a logical fallacy. One of the posters above me made this error when dismissing Movie's 6, 10, 11, and 12. I've also seen it applied ot GT, because Coola is shown. If his movies didn't fit, which I think they do, that doesn't mean that the character doesn't exist.

I don't think I did a very good job of explaining that. Perhaps I'll try again sometime.

Anyways, on to Movie 12, which is by far the most controversial of my "wedgeings". No one at all seems to agree with me on this one.

Movie 12 takes place at least a a year after the wish to make everyone forget about Buu. Goku and Vegita, quite simply, died again. They did this intentionally, so they could compete in the second Annoyoichi Budokai. Later on, they were wished back to life with the Namek Dragonballs. Vegita, unfortunately, caught King Yenma on a bad day, and was damned to Hell. Gohan was "Mystic", which explains how he killed Freeza with a single punch.

Movie 13 is after Movie 12. Trunks gets either a different sword as Future Trunks, or the same one in a different manner. Gohan's slacked enough, and Goku's trained enough, by this time that Goku';s once again the stronger of the two.

I'd be more than happy to discuss these theories with anyone. Questions, comments, flames, suggestions?[/i]

[jjgp1112]

I love trying to wedge the movies into anbime continuity. If you allow for things like animation errors(They forgot to draw halos), and liberal use of Baba's "dead person gets to go back to Earth for a day" ability, I can make them all fit. I usually don't go that far, though, and a few slip into alternate timelines.

Without going to any extreemes like that, I can fit movies 1, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 12, and 13 into continuity. Movie 6 requires a "The narrator lied" though.

Movies 2, 3, and 4 all fit into the same alternate timeline. In this timeline, no one dies fighting with Nappa and Vegita, and no one mentions that Piccolo is a Namek, hence no one goes to Namek until much later, allowing a few more years for villians to come to Earth.

You can't use the alternate timeline explanation for 2-4 because Trunks didn't arrive until the Android saga, thus there's no reason for the timelines to diverge.

[mister yummy]

Perhaps someone else went back in time and we didn't hear about it. Anyways, it has to be an alternate timeline because they don't fit with anything but each other.