Instances in Movie 5 removing its "canonity?"

B · Post by B » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:22 am

mister yummy wrote:Movie 1 takes place at least a year before the Arrival of Radditz. Kurillin either doesn't realise that Gohan is Goku's son, or simply forgets in the time before he sees him again. He did take a massive shot to the head that day, after all. Likewise for Bulma.

Everytime I see "they just forgot about Gohan lulz" I grit my teeth. Nothing against Dead Zone, as it's an enjoyable film and it'd be nice if it did fit into canon, but it just... doesn't. Everyone at Kame House is shocked to see Goku with child in the first episode; even if you wanted o use amnesia by blows to the head as an excuse, it does't make much sense they'd forget just one detail like the existance of a person.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:28 am

mister yummy wrote:Movie 6 is iffy, but it fits in toward the end of the 3 years training for the androids. The narrator is either mistaken, or he lies when he says Dende is Kami already. Perhaps he got too far ahead in the manga. How do they get ahold of Dende and Find New Namek you ask? King Kai works well for stuff like this. No one but Goku sees Vegita's transformation, and he's the only one who didn't see it against #19.

You're going waaaaaaay too far to try and make that fit.

Also, what reason would Trunks have to go back in time even further than the Androids?

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:28 am

Like I said in my last post, thought, we can just call that a plot hole and be done with it. There are plot holes in the main series, and we don't negate entire story arcs to deal with them. We just say "hey, they goofed," and move on. Obviously Movie 1 doesn't factor with the manga. But since Toei, who produced the film, went and used it as the basis for an entire saga in the anime, we kinda have to factor at least some of it into the anime's events. Direct contradictions, like Kuririn meeting Gohan, can just be written off as errors. It's not nearly as bad as, say, movie 3- where most of the cast should be dead and there's no way to reconcile the matter. Or even 2, where Goku knows attacks he couldn't possibly know, given where he was and the fact that Piccolo was alive and well.

mister yummy · Post by **mister yummy** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:30 am

Movie 2 would fit SO much better if Goku didn't know Kaioken and the Spirit Bomb. Then it could be before Radditz, and Roshi's power would have been more meaningful. They really dropped the ball there.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:32 am

As mentioned before, they weren't TRYING to make the movies fit. We're just seeing ways that some of them can.

B · Post by B » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:33 am

Atari made Movie 12 fit in Buu's Fury, if that counts. =/

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:36 am

jjgp1112 wrote:Also, what reason would Trunks have to go back in time even further than the Androids?

Trunks wasn't in Movie 6.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:55 am

Rocketman wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote:Also, what reason would Trunks have to go back in time even further than the Androids?
Trunks wasn't in Movie 6.

Oh, sorry, I meant, go back to the Saiyan Saga.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:47 am

If you take all of the Dragonworld as canon, Dr Slump has more time travel in it than Dragonball. So it's arguable that each movie is in an alternate timeline.

Just food for thought, as the latest that Dr Slump time travel can take place is at the same time as the Pilaf saga.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:52 am

Dayspring wrote:If you take all of the Dragonworld as canon, Dr Slump has more time travel in it than Dragonball. So it's arguable that each movie is in an alternate timeline.

I would LOVE it if somehow, all the screw-ups and changes to DragonBall's timelines were all Arale's fault. XD

Dark Vegeta-Sama · Post by **Dark Vegeta-Sama** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:51 am

Rocketman wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote:Movie 8 logically could fit in the story
Except Goku and Gohan aren't Full Power Super Saiyans.

Chichi made them power down for the school interview.

B wrote:Everytime I see "they just forgot about Gohan lulz" I grit my teeth. Nothing against Dead Zone, as it's an enjoyable film and it'd be nice if it did fit into canon, but it just... doesn't. Everyone at Kame House is shocked to see Goku with child in the first episode; even if you wanted o use amnesia by blows to the head as an excuse, it does't make much sense they'd forget just one detail like the existance of a person.

Kami erased the events of movie 1 from everyone's memory, in an effort to keep the notion that the earth is at peace in their minds, with the one exception being that should Garlic Jr. ever return, the characters would immediately remember him. As a result, Gohan's existence is forgotten by Krillin, Roshi, and Bulma, and Gohan's hidden powers are forgotten by Goku and Piccolo. When Garlic Jr. returns later on in the anime, everyone instantly remembers him.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:53 am

Dark Vegeta-Sama wrote:Chichi made them power down for the school interview.

That explains Goku, but Gohan didn't go to the interview.

Dark Vegeta-Sama · Post by **Dark Vegeta-Sama** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:03 am

SSj Kaboom wrote:
Dark Vegeta-Sama wrote:Chichi made them power down for the school interview.
That explains Goku, but Gohan didn't go to the interview.

Gohan powered down because Goku did, considering he was following whatever his dad would do anyway. He wanted to stay on "even terms" with Goku; if one powers down for a day, so does the other.

Travis Touchdown · Post by **Travis Touchdown** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:55 am

mister yummy wrote:(very nice theories on how which movies can fit)[/i]

I love trying to wedge movies in too. My personal theory (emphisis on 'personal' meaning I'm not tryingto force it down people's throats and I welcome any and all disagreements) allows for movies 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, the Jump Fiesta one.

Movie 1 fits anywhere from a whole year to 6 months before Z begins. I don't think Goku ever says he's looking for his son to Krillin & co. and Gohan's tail might not have even phased Krillin since this is Dragon World. There are strange races of people, such as dog people, cat people, and a righteous canine monarch. Gohan could just be a boy with a tail like Goku's for all he knows.

Movie 2 happens in the 3 years of training, maybe even immediately after Trunks leaves. Huh? But Goku is wearing his Kaio gi. Well, the Jump Fiesta has Goku in his Kame gi, so I guess Goku wears whatever gi he wants to. Why doesn't Goku use Super Saiyan? Preference. He doesn't really need to since Krillin is able to help out and actually make a difference.

Movie 3 happens a year or so into the training years. Why doesn't Goku use Super Saiyan? Stubbornness in wanting a good fight. Goku always wants a good fight and can be downright stubborn at times (such as allow Piccolo to get a free hit at the tournament or else he'd "feel bad"). Turles isn't a Super Saiyan so in Goku's mind, he could be thinking "I should be able to beat this guy since I can turn into a Super Saiyan and he can't." Does that sound logical? Not really, but look whose mind I'm trying to read here.

Movie 5 happens sometime after Turles' death. Why doesn't Goku turn into a Super Saiyan right from the get go? I always figured he wanted to test Cooler out. Cooler is weaker than Frieza, and Goku going toe to toe with him in base kinda shows this. Once Cooler transforms, Goku wants to try him out which turns out to be a bad idea. But, once Cooler lays off Goku, he goes SSJ and saves the day, everyone's happy.

Movie 7 happens somewhere around the end of the 3 years. #13, #14, & #15 attack as scheduled, but it was something Truinks didn't know about. Trunks could be there checking on Goku since by his time line, Goku should be suffering from the heart disease, but he's fine and dandy due to some unknown factor that delayed it. As for the intro showing Gero's execution, well, I haven't seen it in Japanese, but I heard there's no narration that chronicles Gero's death like the English version. However, Dr. Gero is thought to be dead anyway by #17 & #18's hands, so it could just be a visual of what everyone thinks at this point or foreshadowing. So if he's alive, why isn't he there? He could be going through his own cyberization. What about Krillin, Piccolo, and Gohan forgetting Vegeta's SSJ? Perhaps they were more concerned with his power being higher than Goku's or just convenient amnesia, similar to Roshi & Krillin's amnesia of Piccolo's ability to regenerate present in the manga.

My friend fought me tooth and nail on movie 7, but I've decided since I'm looking at the others with an open mind, I might as well accept his theories. He says Movie 8 can happen within the 10 day gap. That works okay I guess.

Movie 9 happens a year after the Cell games. Trunks doesn't have his grown up chin that Toriyama originally drew him with because Toriyama forgot about it, as shown in his concept art for GT Trunks, whose older than when we last see Future Trunks, and this chin is not present on Trunks in Dragon Ball Online. So it's after Trunks defeated his Cell. His hair is long because he didn't just jump to the past immediately after Cell's death, but waited a bit to see if anything else was out there before going back so he could warn them if there was. Goten is probably at home with Grandpa.

Movie 10 squeezes in the month long gap of training for the tournament. Again, I accept my friend's theory.

Movie 11(this is actually my theory) happens on the day Goku goes back to the dead realm. It really seems like Piccolo's training of the boiys began on the following day, so I thought this kind of works since what did they do for the rest of the day once Goku left? Perhaps they gave the boys the day off since it's been a rough one. Sure Majin Buu is out destroying the world, but everyone is confident in their ability to fuse and they have 2 days (according to the original agreement) to train for the big fight. Krillin and #18 could have just let them tag along while #18 tries to get her money before Mr. Satan tries to hide from the Buu incident.

The Jump Fiesta movie happens in the 10 year gap between Buu saga and end-of-Z.

Movie 13 happens sometime after the Jump Fiesta movie within that 10 year gap.

And just for laughs, I also personally (PERSONALLY) accept the 2 Z TV specials, even the Trunks one over the manga chapter. Originally based on a comment I can't find anymore, but also because the anime actually made more sense than the manga, a feat that doesn't happen hardly at all. I also accept Neko Majin Z 1, 2, 4, & 5. I leave 3 out because it just doesn't fit and I don't have too much of a problem with that since I leave out the obvious Dr. Slump chapters that don't fit (mainly Dr. Slump theater). I also accept (gasp) GT Ep 1-41 + TV special and latter half of Ep64.

I accept all of this with an insanely open mind so that Goku & the rest of the cast of my favorite manga can have as many adventures as understandably possible. Glaring plotholes like the Garlic Jr. Saga, Super 17 Saga, Movie 4, or Movie 12 just can't fit in my little one main time line thing I have going.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:41 am

SSj Kaboom wrote:
Dayspring wrote:If you take all of the Dragonworld as canon, Dr Slump has more time travel in it than Dragonball. So it's arguable that each movie is in an alternate timeline.
I would LOVE it if somehow, all the screw-ups and changes to DragonBall's timelines were all Arale's fault. XD

Makes perfect sense.

Kingdom Heartless · Post by **Kingdom Heartless** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:49 am

That should be the new way to explain any plotholes in the series.

"It's Arale's fault."

Why can Gohan turn SSJ in GT?

"It's Arale's fault."

How could No. 18 sense Tarble in the special?

"It's Arale's fault."

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:35 am

Travis Touchdown wrote:
mister yummy wrote:(very nice theories on how which movies can fit)[/i]
I love trying to wedge movies in too. My personal theory (emphisis on 'personal' meaning I'm not tryingto force it down people's throats and I welcome any and all disagreements) allows for movies 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, the Jump Fiesta one.

Movie 1 fits anywhere from a whole year to 6 months before Z begins. I don't think Goku ever says he's looking for his son to Krillin & co. and Gohan's tail might not have even phased Krillin since this is Dragon World. There are strange races of people, such as dog people, cat people, and a righteous canine monarch. Gohan could just be a boy with a tail like Goku's for all he knows.

Movie 2 happens in the 3 years of training, maybe even immediately after Trunks leaves. Huh? But Goku is wearing his Kaio gi. Well, the Jump Fiesta has Goku in his Kame gi, so I guess Goku wears whatever gi he wants to. Why doesn't Goku use Super Saiyan? Preference. He doesn't really need to since Krillin is able to help out and actually make a difference.

Movie 3 happens a year or so into the training years. Why doesn't Goku use Super Saiyan? Stubbornness in wanting a good fight. Goku always wants a good fight and can be downright stubborn at times (such as allow Piccolo to get a free hit at the tournament or else he'd "feel bad"). Tullece isn't a Super Saiyan so in Goku's mind, he could be thinking "I should be able to beat this guy since I can turn into a Super Saiyan and he can't." Does that sound logical? Not really, but look whose mind I'm trying to read here.

Movie 5 happens sometime after Tullece' death. Why doesn't Goku turn into a Super Saiyan right from the get go? I always figured he wanted to test Cooler out. Cooler is weaker than Freeza, and Goku going toe to toe with him in base kinda shows this. Once Cooler transforms, Goku wants to try him out which turns out to be a bad idea. But, once Cooler lays off Goku, he goes SSJ and saves the day, everyone's happy.

Movie 7 happens somewhere around the end of the 3 years. #13, #14, & #15 attack as scheduled, but it was something Truinks didn't know about. Trunks could be there checking on Goku since by his time line, Goku should be suffering from the heart disease, but he's fine and dandy due to some unknown factor that delayed it. As for the intro showing Gero's execution, well, I haven't seen it in Japanese, but I heard there's no narration that chronicles Gero's death like the English version. However, Dr. Gero is thought to be dead anyway by #17 & #18's hands, so it could just be a visual of what everyone thinks at this point or foreshadowing. So if he's alive, why isn't he there? He could be going through his own cyberization. What about Krillin, Piccolo, and Gohan forgetting Vegeta's SSJ? Perhaps they were more concerned with his power being higher than Goku's or just convenient amnesia, similar to Roshi & Krillin's amnesia of Piccolo's ability to regenerate present in the manga.

My friend fought me tooth and nail on movie 7, but I've decided since I'm looking at the others with an open mind, I might as well accept his theories. He says Movie 8 can happen within the 10 day gap. That works okay I guess.

Movie 9 happens a year after the Cell games. Trunks doesn't have his grown up chin that Toriyama originally drew him with because Toriyama forgot about it, as shown in his concept art for GT Trunks, whose older than when we last see Future Trunks, and this chin is not present on Trunks in Dragon Ball Online. So it's after Trunks defeated his Cell. His hair is long because he didn't just jump to the past immediately after Cell's death, but waited a bit to see if anything else was out there before going back so he could warn them if there was. Goten is probably at home with Grandpa.

Movie 10 squeezes in the month long gap of training for the tournament. Again, I accept my friend's theory.

Movie 11(this is actually my theory) happens on the day Goku goes back to the dead realm. It really seems like Piccolo's training of the boiys began on the following day, so I thought this kind of works since what did they do for the rest of the day once Goku left? Perhaps they gave the boys the day off since it's been a rough one. Sure Majin Buu is out destroying the world, but everyone is confident in their ability to fuse and they have 2 days (according to the original agreement) to train for the big fight. Krillin and #18 could have just let them tag along while #18 tries to get her money before Mr. Satan tries to hide from the Buu incident.

The Jump Fiesta movie happens in the 10 year gap between Buu saga and end-of-Z.

Movie 13 happens sometime after the Jump Fiesta movie within that 10 year gap.

And just for laughs, I also personally (PERSONALLY) accept the 2 Z TV specials, even the Trunks one over the manga chapter. Originally based on a comment I can't find anymore, but also because the anime actually made more sense than the manga, a feat that doesn't happen hardly at all. I also accept Neko Majin Z 1, 2, 4, & 5. I leave 3 out because it just doesn't fit and I don't have too much of a problem with that since I leave out the obvious Dr. Slump chapters that don't fit (mainly Dr. Slump theater). I also accept (gasp) GT Ep 1-41 + TV special and latter half of Ep64.

I accept all of this with an insanely open mind so that Goku & the rest of the cast of my favorite manga can have as many adventures as understandably possible. Glaring plotholes like the Garlic Jr. Saga, Super 17 Saga, Movie 4, or Movie 12 just can't fit in my little one main time line thing I have going.

"They came for my son."

knuckle9 · Post by **knuckle9** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:38 pm

B wrote:
mister yummy wrote:Movie 1 takes place at least a year before the Arrival of Radditz. Kurillin either doesn't realise that Gohan is Goku's son, or simply forgets in the time before he sees him again. He did take a massive shot to the head that day, after all. Likewise for Bulma.
Everytime I see "they just forgot about Gohan lulz" I grit my teeth. Nothing against Dead Zone, as it's an enjoyable film and it'd be nice if it did fit into canon, but it just... doesn't. Everyone at Kame House is shocked to see Goku with child in the first episode; even if you wanted o use amnesia by blows to the head as an excuse, it does't make much sense they'd forget just one detail like the existance of a person.

As far as I'm aware he asks Bulma for the radar to track "Gohan", he refers to the four star ball as "Grandpa Gohan" in the first episode of Dragonball. The only other character to see Gohan that was shocked later was Krillin. Krillin is an idiot.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:11 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:I would LOVE it if somehow, all the screw-ups and changes to DragonBall's timelines were all Arale's fault. XD

Yes!

Dark Vegeta-Sama wrote:As a result, Gohan's existence is forgotten by Krillin, Roshi, and Bulma, and Gohan's hidden powers are forgotten by Goku and Piccolo. When Garlic Jr. returns later on in the anime, everyone instantly remembers him.

Only thing about that, a Cell Games Saga episode later reveals via flashback that Goku knew of Gohan's hidden potential as far back as when he was a baby. Remember the shattering of that apple tree? I think Goku was more shocked that Gohan was able to damage Raditz so visibly than his powers, as even when he broke out of the space-pod, he didn't exhibit genuine shock.

knuckle9 wrote:As far as I'm aware he asks Bulma for the radar to track "Gohan", he refers to the four star ball as "Grandpa Gohan" in the first episode of Dragonball. The only other character to see Gohan that was shocked later was Krillin. Krillin is an idiot.

Holy crap, that's actually a good point. Also, Kuririn being an "idiot" at times and those bumps to his head (as far-fetched as B views 'em) can also be attributed. In regard to the tail issue in movie 5, like jigp pointed out, isn't an unheard of aspect. Goku grew his tail back at one point in original DB offscreen, why couldn't Gohan? The explanation about wanting for it to be removed after Doore brought its weakness back into the picture is also valid IMO.

knuckle9 · Post by **knuckle9** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:21 pm

Theres another thing I always wondered about. (might be a dub-ism). During the early Android arc, I believe Dr. Gero talks about how #17 and #18 betrayed him before, and he put them to sleep. Gero could have had his physical body destroyed, and somehow had a safety mechanism set up in the androids so they couldn't leave his lab, or they shut down after a certain amount of time. Gero could easily have made another copy of himeself, and androids #13, #14 and #15 would have logically been created before #17 and #18 anyway. So other than Krillin being an idiot again, I don't see any reason why this movie doesn't fit. I don't recall Piccolo actually seeing Vegeta as a Super Saiyan onscreen in this Movie. He could have felt his energy, but judging the other large powers, or the fact he was looking out for Gohan, could account for this hiccup. Trunks also calls Vegeta "Father" but, Vegeta never really listened to Trunks anway. As for Gohan seeing Vegeta as a SSJ; could he have bashed his head in too?

Kanzenshuu

Instances in Movie 5 removing its "canonity?"

this is a doozy

Re: this is a doozy