Instances in Movie 5 removing its "canonity?"

[jjgp1112]

Theres another thing I always wondered about. (might be a dub-ism). During the early Android arc, I believe Dr. Gero talks about how #17 and #18 betrayed him before, and he put them to sleep. Gero could have had his physical body destroyed, and somehow had a safety mechanism set up in the androids so they couldn't leave his lab, or they shut down after a certain amount of time. Gero could easily have made another copy of himeself, and androids #13, #14 and #15 would have logically been created before #17 and #18 anyway. So other than Krillin being an idiot again, I don't see any reason why this movie doesn't fit. I don't recall Piccolo actually seeing Vegeta as a Super Saiyan onscreen in this Movie. He could have felt his energy, but judging the other large powers, or the fact he was looking out for Gohan, could account for this hiccup. Trunks also calls Vegeta "Father" but, Vegeta never really listened to Trunks anway. As for Gohan seeing Vegeta as a SSJ; could he have bashed his head in too?

Well we already went over how Movie 7 fits perfectly in the unkown fourth timeline created by Trunks' time travelling.

Not only that, but your explanation is pretty flawed, too.

[Dayspring]

As far as I'm aware he asks Bulma for the radar to track "Gohan", he refers to the four star ball as "Grandpa Gohan" in the first episode of Dragonball. The only other character to see Gohan that was shocked later was Krillin. Krillin is an idiot.

Holy crap, that's actually a good point. Also, Kuririn being an "idiot" at times and those bumps to his head (as far-fetched as B views 'em) can also be attributed. In regard to the tail issue in movie 5, like jigp pointed out, isn't an unheard of aspect. Goku grew his tail back at one point in original DB offscreen, why couldn't Gohan? The explanation about wanting for it to be removed after Doore brought its weakness back into the picture is also valid IMO.

Actually it's not just Krillin: all three of them freak right the fuck out when they realize he's not just "babysitting" some kid and that Gohan's his. Plus Goku's known the 4-star ball isn't his grandfather essentially since Bulma explained it to him, and everybody knows he can now make this distinction. For him to make this mistake decades later is out of the question; it would be like him suddenly needing to touch people's crotches again in order to tell the difference between genders, and them acting like he never knew otherwise.

As for movie 5, it should also be noted that Haiyaa Dragon (originating from movie 3, which is inarguably not canon) is in it, and Goku can't go SSJ at will, years after he can. For those who claim he didn't need it, then why would he rely on Kaiokens, let alone the damaging Kaioken x20? Plus if Kaioken x20 isn't remotely enough to take out Freeza, why would it be enough to handle someone who's stronger than Freeza?

[jjgp1112]

But Movie 5 can still be part of the anime canon, since Haiya Dragon appears in that, too. You could say that in the anime, he meets Haiya Dragon off-screen after the Frieza saga.

[Onikage725]

As for movie 5, it should also be noted that Haiyaa Dragon (originating from movie 3, which is inarguably not canon) is in it, and Goku can't go SSJ at will, years after he can. For those who claim he didn't need it, then why would he rely on Kaiokens, let alone the damaging Kaioken x20? Plus if Kaioken x20 isn't remotely enough to take out Freeza, why would it be enough to handle someone who's stronger than Freeza?

Did Goku actually say what level of Kaio-ken he was using?
Also, Goku himself was stronger during that fight than when he fought Freeza. He could have just been trying out a x10 (or perhaps he mastered x20 offscreen, since in anime continuity he works with Kaio-ken enough to develop the Super Kaio-ken) to see if it was enough. We see him in filler training against Piccolo in normal state, so we know (at least in the anime) that it was his most comfortable state.

[Puto]

As for movie 5, it should also be noted that Haiyaa Dragon (originating from movie 3, which is inarguably not canon) is in it

The fact that Higher Dragon originated in Movie 3 doesn't automatically mean that he has to be non-canon. Gohan may have simply met him in some other (unseen) way.

This is also valid for the arguments that "Coola appears in GT and Movie 5 isn't canon, therefore GT fucked up"; Coola may still exist, it's just that the exact events of Movie 5 didn't happen.

[Conan the SSJ]

But Movie 5 can still be part of the anime canon, since Haiya Dragon appears in that, too. You could say that in the anime, he meets Haiya Dragon off-screen after the Freeza saga.

The fact that Higher Dragon originated in Movie 3 doesn't automatically mean that he has to be non-canon. Gohan may have simply met him in some other (unseen) way.

Exactly & exactly. Haiya Dragon does indeed appear in the anime, mostly in episodes of the Garlic Jr. saga, as well as two episodes of the Trunks Saga. (Plus a vague reference by Goten later in the Great Saiyaman Saga, though that can be attributed to dub-only) Saying movie 5 can't be canon because of his appearance is like saying all his anime scenes can't be canon, which is ridiculous in my opinion if we're keeping in mind this is the "anime canon" (not the manga canon) we're attempting to fit these specific movies with. At least that's the basis I've stuck with. Goku and Vegeta also know how to perform Fusion later in GT, but that doesn't force movie 12 into the anime/GT canon status, merely implies Vegeta (with support from a Fusion Saga "Innards of Buu" episode) that he learned it from observing Kakarrot teaching the boys.

[Saiyan-Professor]

As for movie 5, it should also be noted that Haiyaa Dragon (originating from movie 3, which is inarguably not canon) is in it

The fact that Higher Dragon originated in Movie 3 doesn't automatically mean that he has to be non-canon. Gohan may have simply met him in some other (unseen) way.

This is also valid for the arguments that "Coola appears in GT and Movie 5 isn't canon, therefore GT fucked up"; Coola may still exist, it's just that the exact events of Movie 5 didn't happen.

The Daizenshuu just mentions that Kakarrot fought Coola in the timeline. It provides no details. Therefore, you can just disregard any details that would not fit with the main continuity. GT did not screw up they just went off that one fact in the Daizenshuu. According to Dayspring the majority of GT was built from the Daizenshuu as far as historical facts are concerned.

[mister yummy]

That's exactly what I was talking about earlier. Just because Movie 5 doesn't fit(even though I think it does) doesn't mean Coola doesn't exist just because he was in that movie.

Someone made al ong post similiar to mine, and noted how he thought that movies 2 and 3 fit in before the Android Saga. I'd never considered that. It may indeed work. But, why not Movie 4? The false Super Saiya-jin thing? Remember, Goku did that in the Annoyoichi Budokai Saga too.

Considering it, Movie 3 couldn't fit into that period, as Piccolo, Gohan, and Goku's power levels are WAY too low. You could argue that they were hiding their true power, but why?

This is a very fun topic. I love it!

[Dayspring]

That's exactly what I was talking about earlier. Just because Movie 5 doesn't fit(even though I think it does) doesn't mean Coola doesn't exist just because he was in that movie.

Someone made al ong post similiar to mine, and noted how he thought that movies 2 and 3 fit in before the Android Saga. I'd never considered that. It may indeed work. But, why not Movie 4? The false Super Saiya-jin thing? Remember, Goku did that in the Annoyoichi Budokai Saga too.

Considering it, Movie 3 couldn't fit into that period, as Piccolo, Gohan, and Goku's power levels are WAY too low. You could argue that they were hiding their true power, but why?

This is a very fun topic. I love it!

2, 3, and 4 work best as an AU: 2 references the fight with Nappa and Vegeta. Most likely, in their continuity, they won against the Saiyans with either only Yamcha dying, or both Yamcha and Tenshinhan dying. That way movie 2 takes place instead of the Namek saga, as only regular DBs would be used (if at all).

Seeing how strong everybody but Krillin and Chaozu are in movie 3, and how Yamcha, Tenshnhan, and Chaozu aren't in movie 2, I like to think movie 2 takes place during the year while the DBs are rejuvinating after wishing Goku back to life. In this time, Yamcha and Tenshinhan only are training with Kaio, and movie 3 takes place sometime after they get wished back. Movie 4 would take place anytime after movie 3 and before their version of Trunks' arrival.

EDIT: Thanks, Puto!

[Puto]

Yamcha at least must have died; his gi has Kaio's kanji on it.

[mister yummy]

You'll notice that he's wearing Goku's Kaio gi. Yamcha's has the Kaio symbol on the front, and the Turtle symbol on the back. Yamcha was wearing street clothes until his ship went down. Maybe he borrowed Goku's clothes or something.

Or maybe King Kai made him one like that too. Who knows.

[Puto]

2, 3, and 4 work best as an AU: 2 references the fight with Nappa and Vegeta. Most likely, in their continuity, they won against the Saiyans with either only Yamcha dying, or both Yamcha and Tenshinhan dying. That way movie 2 takes place instead of the Namek saga, as only regular DBs would be used (if at all).

Seeing how strong everybody but Krillin and Chaozu are in movie 3, and how Yamcha, Tenshnhan, and Chaozu aren't in movie 2, I like to think movie 2 takes place during the year while the DBs are rejuvinating after wishing Goku back to life. In this time, Yamcha and Tenshinhan only are training with Kaio, and movie 3 takes place sometime after they get wished back. Movie 4 would take place anytime after movie 3 and before their version of Trunks' arrival.

EDIT: Thanks, Puto!

That sounds about right... Though then it's odd that Kaio mentions Freeza in movie 4.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

You'll notice that he's wearing Goku's Kaio gi. Yamcha's has the Kaio symbol on the front, and the Turtle symbol on the back. Yamcha was wearing street clothes until his ship went down. Maybe he borrowed Goku's clothes or something.

Or maybe King Kai made him one like that too. Who knows.

Yamcha had a Kaio gi during the android battle. Although Toriyama was really inconsistent with that one. Sometimes there was no symbol at all, and sometimes it was just a Kame gi!

[Kid Trunks]

If we dip in and out of meta-reasoning (it was dramatic effect) whenever we struggle to apply logic, then we may not bother to try and logically analyse these situations. It's all done for some sort of effect, after all. We could just say that and dust off our hands and be done with it, but it's not very interesting.

But it's kind of obvious that it was done for dramatic effect. Otherwise you'd have to say that Goku wasn't able to transform at will against Meta-Cooler either, or that none of the Saiyans could transform at will in Movie seven.

Besides, if the movie does take place after the Freeza battle, and Goku was able to power up and down from Ssj during that battle (when he showed Freeza mercy, but Freeza threw that Kienzan thing), then obviously he's able to transform at will whenever he wants in Movie 5, since it follows that storyline.

[Dark Vegeta-Sama]

2, 3, and 4 work best as an AU: 2 references the fight with Nappa and Vegeta. Most likely, in their continuity, they won against the Saiyans with either only Yamcha dying, or both Yamcha and Tenshinhan dying. That way movie 2 takes place instead of the Namek saga, as only regular DBs would be used (if at all).

Seeing how strong everybody but Krillin and Chaozu are in movie 3, and how Yamcha, Tenshnhan, and Chaozu aren't in movie 2, I like to think movie 2 takes place during the year while the DBs are rejuvinating after wishing Goku back to life. In this time, Yamcha and Tenshinhan only are training with Kaio, and movie 3 takes place sometime after they get wished back. Movie 4 would take place anytime after movie 3 and before their version of Trunks' arrival.

EDIT: Thanks, Puto!

That sounds about right... Though then it's odd that Kaio mentions Freeza in movie 4.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Turles (or one of his men) mentions Freeza in movie 3.

[The Tori-bot]

2, 3, and 4 work best as an AU: 2 references the fight with Nappa and Vegeta. Most likely, in their continuity, they won against the Saiyans with either only Yamcha dying, or both Yamcha and Tenshinhan dying. That way movie 2 takes place instead of the Namek saga, as only regular DBs would be used (if at all).

Seeing how strong everybody but Krillin and Chaozu are in movie 3, and how Yamcha, Tenshnhan, and Chaozu aren't in movie 2, I like to think movie 2 takes place during the year while the DBs are rejuvinating after wishing Goku back to life. In this time, Yamcha and Tenshinhan only are training with Kaio, and movie 3 takes place sometime after they get wished back. Movie 4 would take place anytime after movie 3 and before their version of Trunks' arrival.

EDIT: Thanks, Puto!

That sounds about right... Though then it's odd that Kaio mentions Freeza in movie 4.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Tullece (or one of his men) mentions Freeza in movie 3.

'Tis so.

[Dayspring]

That sounds about right... Though then it's odd that Kaio mentions Freeza in movie 4.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Tullece (or one of his men) mentions Freeza in movie 3.

'Tis so.

... Does any of that matter, though? Kaio knew about Freeza in the manga as well.

[Conan the SSJ]

... Does any of that matter, though? Kaio knew about Freeza in the manga as well.

True, but aside from a vague self-monologue after Vegeta's defeat, he never brought him up to the Z senshi until after Gohan and Kuririn already first saw him.

[caejones]

... Does any of that matter, though? Kaio knew about Freeza in the manga as well.

True, but aside from a vague self-monologue after Vegeta's defeat, he never brought him up to the Z senshi until after Gohan and Kuririn already first saw him.

"Freeeeeeeeezaaaaaaa.... D: "
... Not that that proves anything, since that was while Goku was on the way to Namek. .

Deh, it's the dragonballs that make movies 2 and 3 annoying. If we ignore the extremely pointless DB hunt / use at the start of movie3, all we need is to get the characters there, with appropriate ability at the same time without clothing setting the world on fire.

Or we could just assume what the movies themselves seem to assume...
That the Z-people in movie3 just decided to come home for a break during the Ginyu fight, including Yamcha, T'en and Chaozu spontaneously resurrecting only to die immediately thereafter. (Given the DB use and such, I think I vote "Gohan halucenates after Recoome breaks his neck").
Slug? Umm... Urh... hm... Ugh... Oven... Someone called off the Freeza fight for tea. (Vegeta's nowhere to be found; maybe the Genkidamaspiritbomb worked? Or maybe Piccolo was watching what was happening, but Gohan was remembering his halucenated dragon friend, and all of the Namekian and Piccolo stuff there was Piccolo getting annoyed at Gohan's loopy-ness while Freeza's survival was still possible, hence explaining the bizarreness of Piccolo's 'death' Ur, takes place during the exchange Gohan: "Hey Piccolo?" Piccolo: "Yes?" Gohan: "Nothin'. Heeheeeehehe! " ).

Movie5, which... ur.. this thread is about, I guess. . . . . . . . .
Nah, I still don't see the problem. *Throws a rock at Goku* It's his fault... *looks for a "Krillin throws rock at Goku" clip to link whenever needs to throw something his way*.

Movie6 is clearly a heart disease-endused dream of Goku's.
Movie7 ... *shrug*.
Movie8 . . . happened in the RoSaT. Each character had to face their greatest fear: Goku having to go to a school interview, Gohan having to... umm... be useless and get people hurt (Remember what his stimulous for going SSJ was?), Vegeta had to face "The Legendary SSJ", and Trunks... ....... Pooh. Well, and Piccolo's in there. But if it's just Gohan and Goku with the others as illusions... as opposed to a shared .... umm... weird... time... continuity... thing...).

Movie9, noone cares about. . *Cuts Trunks' hair and uses it to strangle Bojak*.
Movie10... Umm... Broli escaped the RoSaT because Ten didn't fight him when he had the chance. .
Movie11 is silly fun. Goten and Trunks were in the RoSaT, but didn't use Fusion here, so this probably isn't a RoSaT cop-out answer thingy. Maybe it was Krillin having a "vision" while he was stoned?
Movie12 is Alice in Wonderland.
Movie13 is Tapiorific.

I flee.

[Dayspring]

Going with the hallucination motif, did anybody else wish a cop-out exaplanation was given in which a movie (2, 3, or 4) was actually taking place in Krillin and Gohan's virtual training aboard the Namekian ship en route to Namek?$

Another piss off of mine was the wasted 3 years training. Minor tweaking could have made movies 5-7 take place then without problem: get rid of the random plotholes in movie 5; make Kaio ask Goku and co instead of Dende, and remove the Nail cameo in movie 6; remove the flashback prologue in movie 7.

EDIT: Speaking of gaps, why not make more movies other than 9 take place in the years between Cell and Orange Star High eras?