DB Super Exciting Guide: Story

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:10 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote: There's always been the theory that the Super Saiyan 4's increase in power is 50 x 10 (or 500 times the normal form), because that's the Oozaru's increase in power multiplied by the Super Saiyan's increase in power, so a 400x multiplier for Super Saiyan 3 fits in there quite nicely.

I like it. It makes sense. Golden Oozaru is unquestionably a x500 power up because of what you mentioned. Meanwhile, SSJ4 is caused by taking conscious control of the Golden Oozaru state, resulting in a decrease in mass. Unless stated otherwise, SSJ4 should at least be as strong as Golden Oozaru (base x500).

What I want to know is if SSJ5 and SSJ6 is feasable, in the sense they'd be a combination of SSJ2 and Oozaru, and SSJ3 and Oozaru.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:10 pm

This is just 'fanwanking', but Goku's tail didn't turn gold until he reached SSJ3. Some people take this as a coloring error. Another way to interpret it is that a Golden Oozaru has the power of an SSJ3 to result in being completely gold like that. It might be that SSJ is required to become a Golden Oozaru, but just the act of doing so taps into SSJ3 power even if you haven't attained that form by yourself yet. If that were the case, SSJ4 might be even more powerful.

Herms wrote:Well, it probably wasn't meant as a meaningful distinction, but as you can see from the quotes above, it describes Super Saiyan as multiplying "battle power", while Super Saiyan 2 and 3 multiply "strength". Again, I doubt they had anything in mind by this, but it does remind me of the DB RPG system I was working on awhile ago, where overall fighting ability was determined by multiplying ki (equivalent to battle power) by muscle strength and mental focus (or whatnot; I messed around with the exact formula and attributes a bit). So in this system, if you doubled a character's ki, it would double their overall ability (2x2x2=8, 4x2x2=16), but if you doubled all their stats, it would increase their overall ability by x8 (4x4x4=64). So if you wanted to, you could interpret "strength" in the quotes as referring to overall ability in an RPG system similiar to this, and "battle power" as simply the ki portion, making a multiplying of "stength" much more potent than a multiplying of "battle power".

They probably didn't mean for us to think this deeply about it (although it is odd that they'd use two terms like that), but I like this system you've come up with. Like Dayspring said, it's one way to explain differences in speed and power between two people with the same battle power. I've said it before; if battle power is the same, differences in the form itself or how you use your ki would be the deciding factor in things like speed.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:25 am

Herms wrote:...Each of the lines are in the form of a sort of caption to the pictures of Goku's various Super Saiyan forms. They read:

"Battle power becomes 50 times the norm!"
"Two times the strength of Super Saiyan!"
"Four times the strength of Super Saiyan 2!"

...Well, it probably wasn't meant as a meaningful distinction, but as you can see from the quotes above, it describes Super Saiyan as multiplying "battle power", while Super Saiyan 2 and 3 multiply "strength". Again, I doubt they had anything in mind by this, but it does remind me of the DB RPG system I was working on awhile ago, where overall fighting ability was determined by multiplying ki (equivalent to battle power) by muscle strength and mental focus (or whatnot; I messed around with the exact formula and attributes a bit). So in this system, if you doubled a character's ki, it would double their overall ability (2x2x2=8, 4x2x2=16), but if you doubled all their stats, it would increase their overall ability by x8 (4x4x4=64). So if you wanted to, you could interpret "strength" in the quotes as referring to overall ability in an RPG system similiar to this, and "battle power" as simply the ki portion, making a multiplying of "stength" much more potent than a multiplying of "battle power"...

Dayspring wrote:...Actually it makes sense overall. People with the same Battle Power can have different speeds, etc, as we see with Barta, Jeece, and Recoom. Meanwhile, SSJ 2nd and 3rd Grade don't add to all the attributes you listed. It's possible that they work as followed:

Battle Power x50 = [Speed + Physical strength + Ki Blasts + Endurance (ability to take damage without getting wounded) ] x50

Whereas Strength x2 = (Speed x2) + (Physical strength x2) + (Ki Blasts x2) + (Endurance x2) = Battle Power x 8.

It even explains the positives of FP-SSJ: it's possible that going FP means you can consciously control which attributes get what amount of the 50 that BP is multipled by. In other words:
SSJ = BP x50 = Each attribute x 12.5 added together.
FP-SSJ = BP x 50 = Speed x 35 and other attributes x 5, all added together.
SSJ2 = SSJ x 2 = Each attribute x 25 added together.

I really don't like this, though, since it implies that SSJ2 is 400x stronger than base, and that SSJ3 is 800x stronger.
EDIT: Which is why I'm going to take it as the following:
Battle Power = Base Strength
SSJ strength = Battle Power x50 = Base Strength x50
SSJ2 strength = SSJ strength x2 = Battle Power x50 x2 = Base Strength x100
SSJ3 strength = SSJ2 strength x4 = Battle Power x50 x2 x4 = Base Strength x400

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:...There's always been the theory that the Super Saiyan 4's increase in power is 50 x 10 (or 500 times the normal form), because that's the Oozaru's increase in power multiplied by the Super Saiyan's increase in power, so a 400x multiplier for Super Saiyan 3 fits in there quite nicely.

Can someone explain all of this in a simple manner minus the equal signs etc. I have problems with all of that stuff.

Dr. Casey · Post by **Dr. Casey** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:01 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote:I cannot even imagine what Super Saiyan 4 would offer.

Don't worry, Professor. You don't have to think about it because Super Saiyan 4 doesn't exist.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:42 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:
Saiyan-Professor wrote:I cannot even imagine what Super Saiyan 4 would offer.
Don't worry, Professor. You don't have to think about it because Super Saiyan 4 doesn't exist.

Dude that is your opinion, and just to let you know I acknowledge GT as apart of Dragonball.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:16 pm

The gist is, SSj2 multiplies the base power by one hundred and SSj3 by four hundred.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:46 pm

In my post, I was just saying that Super Saiyan 4 probably makes you 500 times stronger. 10 times stronger for the Oozaru transformation, 50 times more for "golden" (Super Saiyan) Oozaru, and then any additional increase in power they get for actually becoming the Super Saiyan 4 (so, a Super Saiyan 4 could actually even be 550, or 600 times stronger than normal!).

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:44 pm

JulieYBM wrote:The gist is, SSj2 multiplies the base power by one hundred and SSj3 by four hundred.

That is what I thought but all that other stuff just confused me.

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:In my post, I was just saying that Super Saiyan 4 probably makes you 500 times stronger. 10 times stronger for the Oozaru transformation, 50 times more for "golden" (Super Saiyan) Oozaru, and then any additional increase in power they get for actually becoming the Super Saiyan 4 (so, a Super Saiyan 4 could actually even be 550, or 600 times stronger than normal!).

I see thanks for clarifying it for me.

Now can someone provide me with the CliffNotes version of the difference between multiplying Ki and strength? I am still attempting to see how Super Saiyan 3 makes a person 400 times stronger than just 150.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:30 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:The gist is, SSj2 multiplies the base power by one hundred and SSj3 by four hundred.
That is what I thought but all that other stuff just confused me.

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:In my post, I was just saying that Super Saiyan 4 probably makes you 500 times stronger. 10 times stronger for the Oozaru transformation, 50 times more for "golden" (Super Saiyan) Oozaru, and then any additional increase in power they get for actually becoming the Super Saiyan 4 (so, a Super Saiyan 4 could actually even be 550, or 600 times stronger than normal!).
I see thanks for clarifying it for me.

Now can someone provide me with the CliffNotes version of the difference between multiplying Ki and strength? I am still attempting to see how Super Saiyan 3 makes a person 400 times stronger than just 150.

Basically SSJ is base strength x50. SSJ2 is twice that, so base x100. Meanwhile SSJ3 is 4 times greater than SSJ2, so base x400.

All the other stuff was based on speculation as to why the guide refered to "Battle Power" (PLs) for SSJ, but "Strength" for SSJ2 and SSJ3. It's most likely inconsistency or dramatic effect. The fanwanker in me was just exploring the difference in terminology to try to find an explanation for the USSJ side-effects, as well as how FP-SSJ can be of any better use if SSJ is just a straight up multiplyer.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:45 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote:Now can someone provide me with the CliffNotes version of the difference between multiplying Ki and strength? I am still attempting to see how Super Saiyan 3 makes a person 400 times stronger than just 150.

Why does it have to be x150 anyway? Why does that number make more sense? Heck, it's an even smaller increase in power than SSJ2 gave, it's just making you x1.5 stronger than SSJ2.

In a way it makes sense for SSJ3 to be such a large increase. Compared to SSJ2, which turns out to be rather small, the change in appearance is equally amazing.

As for all the strength and ki stuff, we were just talking about how you can train your body to a certain point only, then strength increases come from drawing out ki alone (and transforming I assume, which changes your body in an instant). So how is power and speed calculated? There must be some sort of formula that takes ki and body into account to result in your final strength stat.

Now for something unrelated; I was thinking about kaioken. It increases the ki in your body suddenly and this increase puts a strain on your body. If you don't control your ki right you can damage or explode your body, according to Goku and Kaio-sama (they may have been exaggerating, but I think we get the point that it could be bad). According to this guide Goku trained his body to it's maximum potential around his way to Namek, right? But strength increases keep coming via drawing out your ki.

So, if their bodies stop getting stronger but their ki is still increasing, what's stopping these enormous levels of ki from damaging their bodies in the same way kaioken would?

Edit: Or maybe I'm interpreting it wrong. Maybe their muscles do keep increasing, but only once they have the ki to break beyond the normal limits. This might even explain the need for reaching higher SSJ states -- the extra ki you get from them might help you go beyond your body's current limits. Quite similar to what Onikage theorized when he suggested that unlocking new transformations lets you go through tougher training than your body could take before. If so, way to go Onikage!

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:32 am

Bussani wrote:
Saiyan-Professor wrote:Now can someone provide me with the CliffNotes version of the difference between multiplying Ki and strength? I am still attempting to see how Super Saiyan 3 makes a person 400 times stronger than just 150.
Why does it have to be x150 anyway? Why does that number make more sense? Heck, it's an even smaller increase in power than SSJ2 gave, it's just making you x1.5 stronger than SSJ2.

In a way it makes sense for SSJ3 to be such a large increase. Compared to SSJ2, which turns out to be rather small, the change in appearance is equally amazing.

As for all the strength and ki stuff, we were just talking about how you can train your body to a certain point only, then strength increases come from drawing out ki alone (and transforming I assume, which changes your body in an instant). So how is power and speed calculated? There must be some sort of formula that takes ki and body into account to result in your final strength stat...

I just thought that the increments of 50 were more believable then going from 50 to 100 and then all of a sudden 400. But then again many here thought 150 were ridiculous. Thanks to you and the other for the other information.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:37 am

Saiyan-Professor wrote:I just thought that the increments of 50 were more believable then going from 50 to 100 and then all of a sudden 400. But then again many here thought 150 were ridiculous. Thanks to you and the other for the other information.

Well, I would have thought if SSJ2 was double the power of SSJ, then SSJ3 should be double the power of SSJ2. That makes sense to me because if you keep increasing the multiplications by 50, the resulting power boost continues to get smaller and smaller.

I don't know why they decided SSJ3 should be x400...maybe it's to show just how far above SSJ2 level power Buu was, that such a drastic increase in power was necessary.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:58 am

Bussani wrote:
Saiyan-Professor wrote:I just thought that the increments of 50 were more believable then going from 50 to 100 and then all of a sudden 400. But then again many here thought 150 were ridiculous. Thanks to you and the other for the other information.
Well, I would have thought if SSJ2 was double the power of SSJ, then SSJ3 should be double the power of SSJ2. That makes sense to me because if you keep increasing the multiplications by 50, the resulting power boost continues to get smaller and smaller.

I don't know why they decided SSJ3 should be x400...maybe it's to show just how far above SSJ2 level power Buu was, that such a drastic increase in power was necessary.

In light of your words, I think that Super Saiyan 3 was going to be the last transformation so I guess Toriyama said that he was going to go out with a bang. Then later when Golden Ôzaru and Super Saiyan 4 came around it screwed everything up. If Super Saiyan 3 is 400 times, Super Saiyan 4 is probably 800 or more times.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:05 am

Saiyan-Professor wrote:In light of your words, I think that Super Saiyan 3 was going to be the last transformation so I guess Toriyama said that he was going to go out with a bang. Then later when Golden Ôzaru and Super Saiyan 4 came around it screwed everything up. If Super Saiyan 3 is 400 times, Super Saiyan 4 is probably 800 or more times.

That could very well be the case, in regard to both of your points.

Edit: What the guide says about only being able to train your body to a certain limit; that also might explain why zenkais stop appearing to the same extent as they did earlier in the story. If zenkais are your body being stronger after healing, then once your body's as good as it can get they probably wouldn't help. Unless they somehow draw out more ki as well. But it would still explain why the increase isn't so dramatic, wouldn't it?

SSj_Rambo · Post by **SSj_Rambo** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:02 am

Alright, Herms thought it'd be easier for you guys to just see some of the training pages than for him to explain every little detail, so I'm posting 'em. The wonderful scans are from Hujio, so don't come asking me for any other specific pages!

Page 43:

Pages 44-45:

Pages 46-47:

Pages 62-63:

@ Herms: Sorry it took me so long to post these, was waiting to see if you cared if I posted the other pages in their entirety. If for some reason you don't want the full pages up, I can still do that.

Chuquita · Post by **Chuquita** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:48 am

First off, thank you SO much for the scans! Much appreciation. :3

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll24 ... g_43_2.png

The Goku in the Room of Spirit and Time looks new to me; is he from a chapter title page that never got published in the Viz versions?

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:53 am

Chuquita wrote:The Goku in the Room of Spirit and Time looks new to me; is he from a chapter title page that never got published in the Viz versions?

Yup.
I mean, I've never read the Viz versions, but that's definitely a title page.

(and how I wish they'd just publish updated versions of the Daizenshû instead of those new guides... I get headaches just by looking at those pages)

SSj_Rambo · Post by **SSj_Rambo** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:33 am

Alright, Herms sent me the rest of the Training Pages!

Here is some additional info/explanations that he wrote up that should make understanding these pages whole a lot easier:

Herms wrote:Goku’s stats are this:
Power (パワー ; top)
Speed (スピード; right)
Stamina (スタミナ ; bottom)
Ki (気 ; left)

Herms wrote:For each graph, the white portion of the quadrilateral represents Goku’s abilities pre-training, and the black portion represents his post-training abilities. Also, the graph always shows Goku’s normal power, not his Su per Saiyan power.

The size of each quadrilateral on the graph comes from adding up all the stars given to each stat through all the training so far. They don’t show you the totals in number form, only through the graph. Each notch on the graph seems to represent 5 star points. The circle that Goku’s stats are placed inside up to Kaio’s training is labeled “Saiyan limits”; Goku’s stats surpass this circle after his spaceship training, and so a bigger circle is drawn around the old circle, and the old circle kept around for comparison’s sake.

Pages 48-49:

Pages 50-51:

Pages 52-53:

Pages 54-55:

Pages 56-57:

Pages 58-59:

Pages 60-61:

There ya' go! Thank you Herms and Hujio!!

Chuquita · Post by **Chuquita** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:44 am

I love how Goku's stats go up so high that they expand outside the circle itself.

Priceless in the very best way. X3

Post by **Herms** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:48 am

Chuquita wrote:The Goku in the Room of Spirit and Time looks new to me; is he from a chapter title page that never got published in the Viz versions?

It's from the title page for chapter 387 (DBZ 193; really muscular Trunks fails to hit Cell). It wasn't included in the tankoubon release, just the kanzenban, and since Viz's GNs follow the tankoubon they don't include it either.