Makankosappo/Regrowing Arm Question

[Tyro]

I question which technique uses up the larger amount of ki for Piccolo while fighting Raditz; the Makankosappo, or regrowing an arm.

Freeza: This is a surprise! You can regenerate? However, even if you return to normal, it’s the same thing. What’s more, it seems you can’t go so far as to regenerate stamina [alternatively, physical strength]. Your battle power has dropped from what it was before…

Looking at Freeza's statement, it seems to be implied that Freeza is talking about Nail losing ki because he had his arm ripped off, and that he couldn't regenerate that stamina/physical strength back (from losing the arm) like he could his actual arm.

In Piccolo's case, after his arm had been blasted off, the damage had already been done at that point. If regenerating an arm doesn't cause one to lose ki like it's implied above, why would he not regenerate it? Raditz stated "Making secret plans, little friends? Well, if that's how you choose to waste the last moments of your lives...enjoy yourselves! Wa ha ha!" So it's not like Piccolo didn't have time to regenerate his arm. It appears to only takes around 5 seconds anyway. Surely there must be some sort of power decrease when you regenerate your arm, otherwise there is no reason for him to not grow it back until after the fight.

Like I theorized before, maybe regrowing an arm uses up a good bit of ki. Piccolo stated "Quite...an inconvenience...Having to fight...with one arm..." Does this make sense to anyone, because it doesn't to me. He doesn't have to fight with one arm, but he chooses to, probably because he's already thinking about using the Makankosappo, which he mentions a few panels later, which is implied to use a lot of ki. So using up more stamina would just be pointless. Regeneration even sounds like something that would use someone's ki. I can't see something that useful not costing ki (apart from Boo).

Maybe both losing a limb and regenerating said limb cost a Namekian ki?

[Herms]

Like I theorized before, maybe regrowing an arm uses up a good bit of ki. Piccolo stated "Quite...an inconvenience...Having to fight...with one arm..." Does this make sense to anyone, because it doesn't to me.

I'm not sure if it makes a difference, but the original line is "D…don’t worry…I can still fight even with just one arm, somehow or another…". So no mention of having to do anything.

[rereboy]

In my opinion, regrowing an arm uses a fair amount of ki. So much that it reduces your maximum battle power significantly for a while... That`s why I think piccolo didn`t immediately regrow his arm. He was already thinking of using his secret technique, which he could do with only one arm, but he would need all the ki he could get agaisnt such a powerfull enemy.

[Bussani]

I always just assumed it meant that regenerating limbs used ki. I mean, why wouldn't it? Doing anything uses up stamina, you'd think regrowing a whole arm would use a lot.

Freeza: This is a surprise! You can regenerate? However, even if you return to normal, it’s the same thing. What’s more, it seems you can’t go so far as to regenerate stamina [alternatively, physical strength]. Your battle power has dropped from what it was before…

To me, this doesn't imply that ki isn't used at all. If anything it implies that regenerating wastes ki, since his strength dropped. I guess there are other ways of interpreting it though.

[Dayspring]

I always just assumed it meant that regenerating limbs used ki. I mean, why wouldn't it? Doing anything uses up stamina, you'd think regrowing a whole arm would use a lot.

Freeza: This is a surprise! You can regenerate? However, even if you return to normal, it’s the same thing. What’s more, it seems you can’t go so far as to regenerate stamina [alternatively, physical strength]. Your battle power has dropped from what it was before…

To me, this doesn't imply that ki isn't used at all. If anything it implies that regenerating wastes ki, since his strength dropped. I guess there are other ways of interpreting it though.

Exactly. Freeza's commenting on how instead of regaining any strength, he's just lost even more of it.

Basically Freeza was taunting him over how it won't matter if he's able to regenerate.

[mAcChaos]

Well, Freeza himself did regenerate his strength when he changed forms. If you recall, his tail was sliced off, but he regrew it and did not lose power. So he may have been comparing it to that kind of regeneration.

[Bussani]

Well, Freeza himself did regenerate his strength when he changed forms. If you recall, his tail was sliced off, but he regrew it and did not lose power. So he may have been comparing it to that kind of regeneration.

Maybe, but I'm not so sure. He didn't regain his tail when he became his 3rd form, only when he became his final form. But he basically lost all his outer mass when he went to that form, so it makes sense that his new tail would be whole; it's like the tip of his outer-shell-tail was cut off, but his true form's tail was okay. Plus his transformations release his hidden ki, so obviously his stamina goes up in the process.

I agree with Dayspring.

[Herms]

Well, Freeza himself did regenerate his strength when he changed forms. If you recall, his tail was sliced off, but he regrew it and did not lose power. So he may have been comparing it to that kind of regeneration.

I guess it's possible that he did lose power regenerating his tail, but the loss was just so miniscule in comparision to the power he gained by transforming that it wouldn't matter at all.

[Horgus]

If his body can regenerate itself, I would think it only works one way. After his defeat, his minions had to built him almost an entirely new body instead of him just shifting forms to regenerate.

I would think Freeza's reluctance to risk damaging his body in his final form is shown in the manga in that panel after he knocks Goku into the lava.

He notes the planet will be imminently destroyed and says if he gets caught in the explosion he could 'lose some of his power.'

[Tyro]

Logic tells us that both losing the arm and regenerating it should have some sort of tax on Piccolo's ki. Losing an arm would be like someone punching you in the stomach; it costs you some stamina. Regenerating is sort of a duh.

Anyone want to take a guess as to how much ki Piccolo lost from both the loss of the arm and regenerating it (by percents)?

[Dayspring]

Logic tells us that both losing the arm and regenerating it should have some sort of tax on Piccolo's ki. Losing an arm would be like someone punching you in the stomach; it costs you some stamina. Regenerating is sort of a duh.

Anyone want to take a guess as to how much ki Piccolo lost from both the loss of the arm and regenerating it (by percents)?

I don't think it's in percentages so much as a flat rate (for regenerating anyway). To me, regenerating a limb is like firing off a large ki blast. When your PL's in the 42,000s, it's not a big deal, but still noticeale. When your PL's in the hundreds, it's a huge deal.

[Tyro]

I don't think so, man. Freeza really took notice that Nail's ki had dropped, which tells me that regeneration must be pretty taxing. I see Nail dropping a few thousand points or so, which would be impossible for Piccolo since he's only 408.

If regeneration were only like -100, which would be a huge loss for Piccolo, I doubt Freeza would even mention it.

41,900/42,000 = 99.762% of power left.

308/408 = 75.49% of power level.

[Dayspring]

I don't think so, man. Freeza really took notice that Nail's ki had dropped, which tells me that regeneration must be pretty taxing. I see Nail dropping a few thousand points or so, which would be impossible for Piccolo since he's only 408.

If regeneration were only like -100, which would be a huge loss for Piccolo, I doubt Freeza would even mention it.

41,900/42,000 = 99.762% of power left.

308/408 = 75.49% of power level.

But that's just the point. It would be impossible for Piccolo, but it wasn't. The instant the battle's over, he regenerated the arm. If it were impossible, he wouldn't have at all. As for Freeza, look at why he's commenting. The whole point of regenerating is to regain what you lost, but regeneration actually makes you lose more energy. In the long run it's obviously worth it -you get a missing limb back- but in the short run it's more of a hinderance until you've reached a level superior to Nail's.

[Herms]

To me, regenerating a limb is like firing off a large ki blast. When your PL's in the 42,000s, it's not a big deal, but still noticeale. When your PL's in the hundreds, it's a huge deal.

It couldn't be that huge a deal if Piccolo was able to regenerate his arm at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai and still go on fighting Goku.

[Tyro]

But that's just the point. It would be impossible for Piccolo, but it wasn't.

It wouldn't be impossible if it were a percent you lost. Then, no matter your power level, you'll lose the same ratio that you would have lost before.

[rereboy]

I think its a question of percentages.

And if we think about it, it makes sense, since they are regenerating an arm as strong as the one they lost.

Piccolo`s arm was much weaker when he fought agaisnt radizt then Piccolo`s arm when he fought 1st form Cell. So to regenerate the stronger arm it would take much more ki, but in regards of total ki, its the same percentage.

Therefore it would make sense that the ki lost is set on a percentage of the total ki.

[Dayspring]

To me, regenerating a limb is like firing off a large ki blast. When your PL's in the 42,000s, it's not a big deal, but still noticeale. When your PL's in the hundreds, it's a huge deal.

It couldn't be that huge a deal if Piccolo was able to regenerate his arm at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai and still go on fighting Goku.

But he was about equal to Goku at that time. Radditz was almost 4x stronger, so he needed every little bit of energy he could muster, especially since his entire strategy was to use Makankosappos.

@Tyro: Oh, I see what you mean. I still disagree, though. Piccolo was able to regenerate his whole body in the Boo saga with no loss of strength. If it was really a percentage, he'd be down to less than 1% of his stamina left in this instance. (Although I strongly support the idea for regeneration being a percentage in RPs)

Here's a thought: what if it's skill based, in the same sense that flying depends on your ki manipulation skill, despite being an innate ability. For example, if you're able to perfectly control the ability to regenerate, it would take very little ki to regrow a limb. If you have little to none, however, it would be a large strain on one's stamina to regrow the smallest amount. Another way to look at it would be like how you feel wasted after taking a written exam you're not prepared for at all, whereas if you are prepared, it's a breeze prior, during and afterwards.

[Herms]

But he was about equal to Goku at that time. Radditz was almost 4x stronger, so he needed every little bit of energy he could muster, especially since his entire strategy was to use Makankosappos.

But since he was equal to Goku, if regenerating an arm cost so huge an amount of energy, he should have lost then and there.

[Dayspring]

But he was about equal to Goku at that time. Radditz was almost 4x stronger, so he needed every little bit of energy he could muster, especially since his entire strategy was to use Makankosappos.

But since he was equal to Goku, if regenerating an arm cost so huge an amount of energy, he should have lost then and there.

But that doesn't mean it's a percentage, either, or else he'd be just as screwed against Goku.

Maybe it's not that big at all, just big enough to be a large hinderance against someone as powerful as Radditz when your PLs are in the lower hundreds?

[Tyro]

I'm pretty sure that Piccolo went straight into his "final gamble" attack (AKA nuking the island with his remaining ki) after he regrew his arm. Which suggests to me that he was now a good deal weaker than Goku.