The black character's lips

Vekurotto · Post by **Vekurotto** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:20 pm

I find the dub voices for Killa, Namu, Great Lee, General White, and Muraski more offensive than anything Toriyama/Toei have drawn containing black people. I mean at least in the Japanese version they all sounded like people instead of fueling the "DoragAnBalls iz RACisT" BS.

EDIT: I should've mentioned Jeice's horrible accent too

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Innagadadavida · Post by **Innagadadavida** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:29 pm

I don't think it should be considered racism unless we know that the intention was to offend; unless there was genuine hatred against people with black skin through Popo's design. And Toriyama has never said "man I sure hate blacks, lol, that's why I drew Popo with those big ass lips." Anyone who chooses to be offended by something that wasn't supposed to be offensive is the only one who's saying there's something wrong with that thing.

A wise man once said:

Yahtzee wrote: A society where anyone can make jokes about anyone else and everyone laughs, is a truly tolerant society. Political correctness charged censorship only serves to engender resentment and distance between social groups. Besides, gangster rapping doesn't need defending they've got guns for that."

Post by **Herms** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:33 pm

Vekurotto wrote:I find the dub voices for Killa, Namu, Great Lee, General White, and Muraski more offensive than anything Toriyama/Toei have drawn containing black people.

What accent did they give General White? And who's Great Lee?

The Time Traveller · Post by **The Time Traveller** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:37 pm

Herms wrote:And who's Great Lee?

I think he's some generic Tenkaichi Budoukai contestant who looks like Bruce Lee.

Vekurotto · Post by **Vekurotto** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:52 pm

Herms wrote:What accent did they give General White? And who's Great Lee?

Russian stereotype.

I'm not too sure if "Great Lee" was his name but he was the guy that Goku fought and won a bunch of zeni from when he got lost looking for Bulma's house in Western City. I could've sworn that I remember he sounded "Chinese" if you get what I mean.

Oh yeah I completely forgot about the dubbed version of the long legged black kid that Chibi Trunks fought. Yeah, he sounded like a white guy impersonation of Little Richard.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:59 pm

Herms wrote:
rereboy wrote:I find it interesting that Black from the red ribbon army kept his lips while Mr. popo didn`t.
Though Viz didn't completely remove Black's lips like they did with Popo, they did black them in with screentone, I guess to make them less obvious.

Didn`t know that. In my manga they are the color of his skin. Guess that`s the edit. Not that it matters much.

Deep Thought · Post by **Deep Thought** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:24 pm

NeptuneKai wrote:It always seems to me that the people who shout "IT'S NOT RACIST!" either are foreign to the northern territory or are too young to know about/ never studied up on the "sambo" stereotype.

This.

Glad to know that a lot of the people are this forum are just as ignorant as the japanese.

Also, just because you're black and don't find it racist doesn't mean that it isn't racist. Especially since a lot of black use the term "nigger" to refer to each other nowadays. Overall, a lot of behavior like this has made me partially disgusted in my own race.

I'd like to add that just because japanese people are ignorant to certain aspects of racism, doesn't make it right, you know.

I doubt this message will get through to that many people, since I bet that some of them are such Japan-humpers that if DBZ/other popular japanese mediums depicted black men as apes, they'd still be okay with it.

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:36 pm

mister yummy wrote:Rascism requires intent, not just action. Hence, the appearence of Adjuctant Black is no rascist.

As for Mr. Popo, he's not even a man, he's a genie. How can a portrayel of a fictional species be rascist?

Toriyama-sensei didn't intend to offend anybody, he just drew caractitures of people so you could tell what they were supposed to look like. No ill intent = no rascism.

So I can draw a big lipped pitch black wide eyed sambo stereotype and have him holding a bucket of chicken and declaring "BOY HOWDY BOSS I SURE DO LOVE DEMS COTTAN PICKIN!"? When people complain I'll simply go "Oh no no no, see this man is a genie silly goose. Peshaw, racist my foot."

I'm not calling Toriyama racist just ignorant on that specific matter like most of Japan back in the 80's or hell even today really.
I really wish people would face the fucking facts;Mr.Popo and General Black are stereotypes of black people. Sure there was no ill intent but that doesn't change the fact that these designs are based off of old racist characterizations.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:41 pm

Deep Thought wrote:
NeptuneKai wrote:It always seems to me that the people who shout "IT'S NOT RACIST!" either are foreign to the northern territory or are too young to know about/ never studied up on the "sambo" stereotype.
This.

Glad to know that a lot of the people are this forum are just as ignorant as the japanese.

Also, just because you're black and don't find it racist doesn't mean that it isn't racist. Especially since a lot of black use the term "nigger" to refer to each other nowadays. Overall, a lot of behavior like this has made me partially disgusted in my own race.

I'd like to add that just because japanese people are ignorant to certain aspects of racism, doesn't make it right, you know.

I doubt this message will get through to that many people, since I bet that some of them are such Japan-humpers that if DBZ/other popular japanese mediums depicted black men as apes, they'd still be okay with it.

I believe that there was no ill intent of the author in the design. He was just doing his goofy designs like he always does.

The reason why you find it racist is because of the past and everything that belongs to history and you know of.

If the author had no ill intent, and no racist intentions, can we really say that his designs are racists? Or are we just being influenced by what we know that has happened in history regarding this subject?

If the author really had ill intent, racist intent, then it his racist. If not, and we find it racist, I believe that we are just being influenced by what we know, regardless of having anything to do with the subject.

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:43 pm

Deep Thought wrote:
I doubt this message will get through to that many people, since I bet that some of them are such Japan-humpers that if DBZ/other popular japanese mediums depicted black men as apes, they'd still be okay with it.

I don't think there's a need to name call. Racism is just such a negative label that people are scared to death of being labeled as such, so when someone implies that an aspect of their favorite cartoon is racist they defend it tooth and nail to try and defend its honor.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:43 pm

NeptuneKai wrote:
mister yummy wrote:Rascism requires intent, not just action. Hence, the appearence of Adjuctant Black is no rascist.

As for Mr. Popo, he's not even a man, he's a genie. How can a portrayel of a fictional species be rascist?

Toriyama-sensei didn't intend to offend anybody, he just drew caractitures of people so you could tell what they were supposed to look like. No ill intent = no rascism.
So I can draw a big lipped pitch black wide eyed sambo stereotype and have him holding a bucket of chicken and declaring "BOY HOWDY BOSS I SURE DO LOVE DEMS COTTAN PICKIN!"? When people complain I'll simply go "Oh no no no, see this man is a genie silly goose. Peshaw, racist my foot."

Doing that would presume ill intent. And even ignorants and children can have ill intent. I just dont believe that this was the case with the author.

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:47 pm

I don't believe Toriyama had any ill intent either; maybe I'm just wording what I'm trying to say wrong. I just want people to accept that sambo stereotypes are in Dragonball and not deny those characterizations exist.
Morality aside Toriyama was influenced by the sambo stereotypes that stemmed from racist culture on a few character designs. People are going out of there way to deny this and that's what I'm arguing against.

Son Wukong · Post by **Son Wukong** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:56 pm

Deep Thought wrote: I'd like to add that just because japanese people are ignorant to certain aspects of racism, doesn't make it right, you know.

In this case it doesn't make it wrong.

B · Post by B » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:58 pm

Deep Thought wrote:Also, just because you're black and don't find it racist doesn't mean that it isn't racist.

Who said that?

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:03 pm

NeptuneKai wrote:I don't believe Toriyama had any ill intent either; maybe I'm just wording what I'm trying to say wrong. I just want people to accept that sambo stereotypes are in Dragonball and not deny those characterizations exist.
Morality aside Toriyama was influenced by the sambo stereotypes that stemmed from racist culture on a few character designs. People are going out of there way to deny this and that's what I'm arguing against.

I don`t deny that he was problably influenced by it. It is too much alike to be coincidence. Its just that I believe that his intentions are completely different. I think he was just influenced by the design of those things and nothing else. Purely esthetics.

If I'm wrong, then it is racism.

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:06 pm

rereboy wrote:
I think he was just influenced by the design of those things and nothing else. Purely esthetics.

.

That's all I meant, now if the general Daizex populace would concur we'd be in fine condition.

B · Post by B » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:08 pm

Unintentional racism is still racism. The best example I can think of is Sparkling Wiggles.

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:10 pm

B wrote:Unintentional racism is still racism. The best example I can think of is Sparkling Wiggles.

The parents condoning that were indeed being racist however the little girl was not seeing as how she legitimately thought she was saying "sparking wiggles" and nothing more. That's actually a fine example.

Deep Thought · Post by **Deep Thought** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:14 pm

rereboy wrote: I believe that there was no ill intent of the author in the design. He was just doing his goofy designs like he always does.

The reason why you find it racist is because of the past and everything that belongs to history and you know of.

If the author had no ill intent, and no racist intentions, can we really say that his designs are racists? Or are we just being influenced by what we know that has happened in history regarding this subject?

If the author really had ill intent, racist intent, then it his racist. If not, and we find it racist, I believe that we are just being influenced by what we know, regardless of having anything to do with the subject.

Hm, I guess Akira Toriyama, in all the 50 or so years of his life, has never seen a black person. Funny, huh?

Also, if a white American did this, then he'd be driven out of America and you know it.

B wrote:
Deep Thought wrote:Also, just because you're black and don't find it racist doesn't mean that it isn't racist.
Who said that?

A user, he said that he was black and didn't find it racist. I've seen users do it a lot, almost as though they are saying;

"I didn't find it racist, and I'm BLACK, so therefore, it isn't racist."

B · Post by B » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:28 pm

That might've been me wording my post wrong. It's racist indeed, I just don't take it seriously because:

1) More or less, there's no malicious intent behind it. Toriyama wasn't trying to vent out his hatred of black people by stereotyping minor characters.
2) It's not like I and the rest of the black DB fans are going to get a fucking apology. =/

Racism is a waste of an emotion, but I find getting upset about it just as pointless. Shit like this will continue until God uses his magic to end it or he decides to just wipe the human race out completely.