Is Kai Moving Along Too Fast?

Discussion specifically regarding the "refreshed" TV version of DBZ created in Japan for its 20th anniversary, including individual threads for each episode.
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obiwan23s
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Post by obiwan23s » Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:01 pm

Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:Now, the cutting of canon material definitely goes against the message, but that's not the only problem with Kai in regards to pacing. When Raditz and Piccolo had their exchange, it almost seemed as though Raditz had arrived with the intention of leaving as soon as possible....
"Hey green man, I have more important business to attend to, so I'm going to deuce it 15 seconds earlier than the last time we did this. Cool?"

People citing that scene as proof of Kai moving to fast is becoming sort of a broken record performed by a band that's lip syncing. That scene was cut down by fifteen measley seconds and people act like it means Goku's going to beat Freeza in two episodes.

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Post by Bussani » Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:17 pm

If canon scenes are cut, I think it's probably to make the episode the correct length. It's a shame about losing that scene with Kuririn and Roshi talking.

I haven't felt 'rushed' so far though. Episode 2 was already a talking episode. I'd rather it move fast than be on episode 4 already.

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Post by Forgotten Hero » Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:10 pm

Dayspring wrote:In the manga my avatar is taken from...
Sorry, but where exactly in the manga did your avatar come from?
Bussani wrote:If canon scenes are cut, I think it's probably to make the episode the correct length. It's a shame about losing that scene with Kuririn and Roshi talking.

I haven't felt 'rushed' so far though. Episode 2 was already a talking episode. I'd rather it move fast than be on episode 4 already.
The correct length you're talking about is 23 minutes and 25 seconds, with out commercials. I think it's fair to say in the future that we will have more canon material cut out. We're flying at about 2-3 manga chapters, so we'll see next week. By the way, I will be doing a review every week of the new Dragonball Kai episode, respectively of that week. So for deep analysis of what has been cut from the manga and anime, check that out (in my signature).
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Post by Dayspring » Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:52 pm

Forgotten Hero wrote:
Dayspring wrote:In the manga my avatar is taken from...
Sorry, but where exactly in the manga did your avatar come from?
Not the manga itself. It's a 15-panel manga he made that got republished in Daizenshuu 7 that explains his thought process on the story, and why the filler exists and what he thinks of it. In one panel, he explains that each chapter only makes up about 10 minutes of anime, so they made filler.
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Post by ShinRogafuken » Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:07 pm

Forgotten Hero wrote:
Dayspring wrote:In the manga my avatar is taken from...
Sorry, but where exactly in the manga did your avatar come from?
Bussani wrote:If canon scenes are cut, I think it's probably to make the episode the correct length. It's a shame about losing that scene with Kuririn and Roshi talking.

I haven't felt 'rushed' so far though. Episode 2 was already a talking episode. I'd rather it move fast than be on episode 4 already.
The correct length you're talking about is 23 minutes and 25 seconds, with out commercials. I think it's fair to say in the future that we will have more canon material cut out. We're flying at about 2-3 manga chapters, so we'll see next week. By the way, I will be doing a review every week of the new Dragonball Kai episode, respectively of that week. So for deep analysis of what has been cut from the manga and anime, check that out (in my signature).
I have decided to do compilated-episode reviews too. Since I do so many other videos, such as a One Piece dub, an original manga series, a BT3 story mode remake and my other news videos, it is hard to make a review of an episode every week.

So maybe every three weeks I will make a review discussing 3 episodes.

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Post by Rocketman » Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:10 pm

It only feels 'rushed' because you're used to the slow as balls original anime.

Just pause the video and stare at it for ten minutes to get the old feel back.

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Post by Rod » Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:13 pm

Rocketman wrote:It only feels 'rushed' because you're used to the slow as balls original anime.

Just pause the video and stare at it for ten minutes to get the old feel back.
For some reason, I think your right

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Post by Commander_Red » Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:18 pm

Image

...sorry.

It'll be interesting to see how long they can keep up this pace. I don't think you can so literally adapt a manga and still have it make sense to the audience.

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Post by Bussani » Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:30 pm

Commander_Red wrote:It'll be interesting to see how long they can keep up this pace. I don't think you can so literally adapt a manga and still have it make sense to the audience.
Considering most of the filler adds absolutely nothing to the plot or story, I disagree. It may be that a manga is written in a way that would make it difficult to adapt for TV, but none of Dragon Ball's filler parts were there to fix that, really. They were just padding. It would make just as much sense without them. More even, since a lot of the filler contradicts future events.

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Post by Forgotten Hero » Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:41 pm

Rocketman wrote:It only feels 'rushed' because you're used to the slow as balls original anime.

Just pause the video and stare at it for ten minutes to get the old feel back.
I could, but when it airs live I cannot do that. I could wait until the next day, but why the hell would I pause it and stare? I'm not gonna do that, I want to enjoy it without pausing. Then again, I do like that good ole' feeling...[/sarcasm]
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Post by Oolong215 » Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:01 am

I don't think it's moving too fast at all.
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Post by Coola Yagami » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:13 am

I'm wondering if Kai will completely cut out the entire fact that the Saiyan battle was televised, which means removing all TV helicopters and reporters footage as well as all the crap at Kame House.

I've always wondered why everyone was so 'WTF???' at the Cell Games when they showed the Z-gang there, and why the King recognized Piccolo but not Vegeta, until I read the manga.

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Post by Kendamu » Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:18 am

Rocketman wrote:It only feels 'rushed' because you're used to the slow as balls original anime.

Just pause the video and stare at it for ten minutes to get the old feel back.
My feelings exactly. When comparing it side-by-side with the manga while watching it, the pacing is great! Sure, a little bit of this and that was cut and it's a shame, but I'll live. I lived through edited Saban/FUNi DBZ. I lived through VIZ's manga. I'll live through this.

From what I've seen, a lot of the people who hate the pacing (that I've talked to) are used to the anime version where everything takes forever to accomplish. I'm used to the manga version and, from my perspective, it's a great adaption! Not perfect, but it's still really good!

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Post by Saiyavenger2941 » Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:23 am

Yes. It does go by too fast. But in the "time flies when you're having fun" way. It's the quickest thirty minutes of the entire weekend for me. (And coming from a NASCAR fan, that's saying something.)

But I really do love the pacing. Forever gone are the "3 months to make five minutes pass" days of old!

I just really hope they don't cut out a lot of the Gohan and Videl stuff in the future. (Except for the Spopovitch beating. They breeze through that, and I'll be a very happy fanboy.)
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Post by mAcChaos » Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:25 am

You guys watch it in japanese with no subtitles, right? So how can anyone tell what they're saying? Outside of just knowing beforehand because we know the show, I mean.
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Post by Herms » Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:25 am

Kendamu wrote:My feelings exactly. When comparing it side-by-side with the manga while watching it, the pacing is great!
Shouldn't the goal be for pacing that stands on its own and feels right on its own, rather than pacing that you have to compare directly to the manga before it feels great?
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Post by Kendamu » Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:51 am

Herms wrote:
Kendamu wrote:My feelings exactly. When comparing it side-by-side with the manga while watching it, the pacing is great!
Shouldn't the goal be for pacing that stands on its own and feels right on its own, rather than pacing that you have to compare directly to the manga before it feels great?
Definitely, and it does. Seems that a lot of the people I've talked to that think it goes by too quickly are comparing the pace to the Dragonball Z anime rather than the manga or letting it stand on it's own. The reason I even started comparing it to the manga in the first place was to see how it measured up to my favorite version of the story as to offer a contrast to all the people complaining about it's pacing and aspect ratio in comparison to Dragonball Z. If not for that, I wouldn't have sat around and compared the manga to the anime. I'd have let someone with a website do it for me. :wink:

So, shouldn't Dragonball Kai have the right to stand on it's own as an anime, or are people going to continue feeling rushed because they just can't help but compare the pacing to Dragonball Z rather than letting it stand on it's own?

EDIT:
Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:When Raditz and Piccolo had their exchange, it almost seemed as though Raditz had arrived with the intention of leaving as soon as possible....
That's because he did have the intention of leaving as soon as he arrived. He arrives, realizes, "Wait, this green guy isn't Kakkarot," and decides to continue his search. The only reason he was there for so long was because Piccolo was giving him lip and trying to kill him. So, Raditz decided to stay just long enough to return the favor until his scouter picked up Goku's BP. Since that was more important than blowing up some random weakling he met on a slight unintentional detour, he flew off to track Goku down.

It's not like Raditz was like, "Hm. Finding my brother is important, but I think I'm gonna go waste some time, see who else stands out on this planet, and pick a few fights with guys who aren't even a challenge." He was busy and needed to be on his way.

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Post by Bussani » Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:26 am

mAcChaos wrote:You guys watch it in japanese with no subtitles, right? So how can anyone tell what they're saying? Outside of just knowing beforehand because we know the show, I mean.
Some people speak Japanese. I know...bits and pieces (trying to learn properly, but don't have the time right now), but I know Dragon Ball so well that it's not normally important. People like Herms, Kei and Hujio point out major changes to the script in the Kai section.

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Post by obiwan23s » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:23 am

This is going to be a long post so just a fair warning to everyone. I went through Volumes 17 thru 21 of the manga to draft out an estimation for what events will correspond to each episode of Kai up until the battle with Vegeta is over. Someone suggested that it would take 17 episodes to get through the whole Vegeta saga and I ended up with 18. Granted this is omitting nothing from the manga, which Kai has already done, so chopping a few scenes here and there could reduce it by an episode. If anything, I had fun re-reading those four books. Planning on doing it for the rest of the series just to get an idea of how Kai should go, and to see if I can get through Vol 42 while keeping it at or close to the rumored 100 episode total.

Anyway, here's my list for the Vegeta saga:

Episode 4

Piccolo takes Gohan from Raditz's crash site. Kami takes Goku before Enma to get permission for him to train with Kaio, Goku starts off down the Serpent Road. Piccolo tells Gohan that Goku is dead and the Saiyans are coming, then leaves him to survive for six months. Episode should end with Gohan getting stuck on top of the pillar when he escapes the dinosaur and Piccolo dropping the two apples down to him.

Episode 5

Gohan sees the full moon and turns into the Great Ape. Piccolo destroys the moon, removes his tail and gives him the orange gi with sword. Bulma fixes Raditz's scouter so they can track down Yamcha and Tenshinhan. Yajirobei comes to tell them that Karin is going to train everyone. Chichi and Gyumao show up and find out that Piccolo stole Gohan and Goku is dead. Six months pass and Piccolo decides Gohan is ready for training.

Episode 6

Piccolo begins training Gohan. Goku reaches the end of the Serpent Road and lands on Kaio's planet. Kaio makes Goku tell him a joke before training him. The first part of Goku's training is to catch Bubbles. Gohan tells Piccolo that he doesn't think he's as bad a person as his mother and others make him out to be. Gohan and Goku both continue their training, with Kaio thinking that Goku will be the first to master Kaio Ken.

Episode 7

Goku perfects the Genki Dama at Kaio's planet. Kaio flips out because the Saiyans will arrive in one day and he forgot to factor in the time it would take for Goku to make the return trip down the Serpent Road. He has Goku speak to Kame Sennin with regard to bringing him back to life with the Dragon Balls. On Earth, they summon Shen Long and wish Goku back to life. Kaio gives Goku his new gi and sends him on his way. (Kai can pace itself as fast as it wants to but this is just one chapter's worth of material and I can't see it being reduced to less than one full episode)

Episode 8

Nappa and Vegeta land on Earth and Nappa wipes out the city surrounding their crash site. They pick up Piccolo's location on their scouters and head for him and Gohan. Kuririn and the rest head over there as well, but he gets there first. Vegeta and Nappa aren't far behind and quickly identify Piccolo as a Namekian. Vegeta tells Nappa not to rely on the scouter's readings because they can hide their real power. He has Nappa plant the Saibaiman seeds, and the six Saibaimen come out of the ground. Yamucha, Tenshinhan and Chaozu show up and Vegeta suggests they each fight a Saibaiman one on one.

Episode 9

Tenshinhan volunteers to go first and quickly beats down the Saibaiman. Vegeta explodes that Saibaiman's brains because he feels it had already lost. Yamucha goes next and is killed when the Saibaiman self-destructs. Kuririn kills three of the remaining four Saibaimen, and Piccolo gets the last one. Nappa steps in to take on Tenshinhan. Tenshinhan's arm is hacked off during his fight with Nappa. Chaozu self-destructs on Nappa's back but Nappa emerges unharmed to everyone's shock.

Episode 10

Nappa has Tenshinhan between the crosshairs. Piccolo comes up with a strategy for attacking Nappa, but Gohan chickens out when they execute it. Tenshinhan hits Nappa with the Kikoho and then dies. Piccolo says they have to change their strategy because Nappa is too good at fighting in the air. Kami senses that his and Piccolo's life is about to end. Nappa is about to kill off the rest of them when Vegeta stops him and opts to wait three hours for "Son Goku" to show up, because Piccolo and Kuririn keep saying he's going to turn the tables for them.

Episode 11

Three hours pass with no sign of Goku so the battle with Nappa resumes. Piccolo comes up with a plan to grab Nappa's tail, thinking it will weaken him like it did Raditz. Goku makes it back to Earth and starts flying to the battle site. The gang executes their plan to grab Nappa's tail but it backfires on Piccolo because Nappa and Vegeta have trained themselves past the point of the tail becoming a weak spot. Nappa tries to kill Gohan but Kuririn stops him and uses the Kienzan, but Nappa dodges it and beats down Kuririn. Piccolo gets in a good hit, which makes Nappa mad. Out of the blue they all sense Goku's ki heading their way.

Episode 12

Vegeta's scouter picks up Goku at a battle power of 5000 and fears that Goku is hiding even more power. He orders Nappa to kill all of them so they can't help Goku, saying that Piccolo is expendable because they can just go to Namek and use the Dragon Balls there. Nappa tries to kill Gohan but Piccolo sacrifices himself. Piccolo says that Gohan's kindness rubbed off on him too much and then dies along with Kami. Gohan's rage gives him a momentary power boost, but it does nothing to Nappa. Nappa goes in for the killshot but Goku shows up in time to save Gohan.

Episode 13 (the "over nine thousand" episode)

Goku examines the corpses of his dead friends while Nappa brags about how easily he killed them. He splits the last senzu with Gohan and Kuririn, then turns to Nappa and Vegeta saying they won't get any mercy from him. Goku hits Nappa four times, one for each of his dead friends. Goku continues owning Nappa until Vegeta calls him off. Nappa abides but goes after Gohan and Kurirn; Goku eliminates him with Kaio Ken.

Episode 14

Goku explains how Kaio Ken works. Vegeta kills Nappa. Goku sends Gohan and Kuririn back to Kame House, then relocates to the rocky area to fight Vegeta. Vegeta spews his "I'm an elite and you're just a peasant" thing and they start to fight. Goku can't hang and Vegeta tells him to do what he did when he defeated Nappa. Goku shows him Kaio Ken but it's not enough. Vegeta shows off some of his power and Goku has to go to Double Kaio Ken to escape the blast.

Episode 15

Goku uses Triple Kaio Ken and whoops some Saiyan elite ass. Vegeta decides he's going to blow up the Earth with his Galick Cannon. Goku fires back with a Kamehame-Ha, still using Triple Kaio Ken. The two blasts are deadlocked so Goku goes to Quadruple Kaio Ken and is beat Vegeta's beam. Yajirobei comes out thinking Goku has won, but Goku says its not over. In the sky, Vegeta says he'll just transform into an ape to beat Goku. Since there is no moon, he lands and explains the transformation to Goku, then uses the aritifcial power ball to start transforming.

Episode 16

Vegeta transforms into the Great Ape. Goku realizes that it was he himself who turned into the ape as a child and killed his grandfather. Ape Vegeta begins attacking Goku; Goku uses the Taiyo Ken to blind Vegeta and start making the Genki Dama. He gets enough energy to make the Genki Dama, but Vegeta gets his sight back and trashes Goku. Gohan and Kuririn go back and come up with a plan to turn Vegeta back into his normal form by cutting off his tail, along with Yajirobei. Gohan and Kuririn distract Vegeta while Yajirobei cuts off the tail, and Vegeta turns back to normal.

Episode 17

Vegeta beats down Gohan and Kuririn, then tries to deliver the killshot on Goku. Gohan gets back up and takes on Vegeta. Goku gives Kuririn the energy for the Genki Dama. Vegeta stays occupied fighting Gohan; Kaio tells Kuririn not to aim the Genki Dama with his eyes but to feel out Vegeta's ki instead. Kuririn shoots, Vegeta dodges and Gohan bounces it back to Vegeta. Everyone thinks they've won when Vegeta comes back down and gets up, threatening to kill all of them and destroy the Earth.

Episode 18

Vegeta notices Gohan's tail is back and tries to remove it so he can't transform. Yajirobei slices him in the back and the gets owned by Vegeta. By the time Vegeta gets back to Gohan, the transformation has already begun. Gohan turns into the Great Ape and Goku and Kuririn talk him into attacking Vegeta. Vegeta cuts off the tail but bad timing causes him to be crushed when Gohan falls on him. Vegeta calls his spacecraft back and Kuririn cuts him off as he tries to escape. Goku talks Kuririn into letting Vegeta go so that they can fight each other again.

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Post by Bussani » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:44 am

obiwan23s wrote:*Snip*
This pace I can live with.

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