SSJ2 Goku vs Broly?!

[Dayspring]

You ever thought that the Z-Senshi were so over powered that it looked as if they were a bunch of weaklings.

I'm not so much concerned about comparing them to Broly as comparing them to each other.

EDIT:

There's one more thing, too. When fighting Broly in Movie 10, Gohan gets a bit annoyed that Broly's giving him so much trouble, saying, "and here I'm supposed to have powered up considerably since then!"

Which means that Gohan has become a lot stronger than he was the last time he fought Broly. But this Gohan never improved from his Cell Games power, in fact, he's gotten a bit weaker over seven years. Which means that the Gohan who fought Broly before couldn't have been his MMSj Cell Games self.

Somewhat off-topic: if you guys were to shove movies 8 and 10 into continuity, how would you do it? I also strongly support the idea that Goku and Gohan weren't MSSJ. Taking this into effect, I think movies 8 and 10 would take place in Cell's timeline, meaning a timeline in which no future Cell was present. In other words, movie 8 would take place at the beginning of the 7-year gap for the manga, which would mean he's not a threat. Meanwhile, movie 8 wouldn't have Cell at all, so the very first ROSAT training wouldn't be as fierce as it was in the manga.

Movie 8's timeline:
1) PLs of 250X.
2) ROSAT. PLs of 300X.
3) Androids defeated with ease. At least 11 days go by. Broly shows up with a PL of 300-350X and the ability to go LSSJ (PL of 500X).
4) Movie 10 occurs because they failed to kill him in movie 8.

Manga timeline:
1) PLs of 250X.
2) ROSAT. PLs of 300X.
3) Unsure if they're strong enough to defeat Cell, everybody stays extra to train. PLs of 350X, which has the added bonus of leading to USSJ (PLs of 500X). Goku sees fault and instead begins MSSJ training.
4) Zenkais from fighting Cell and MSSJ training. 10 days training. Cell Games. PLs of 750X.
6) Gku is dead. At least 1 day goes by (for his funeral). Broly shows up with a PL of 300-350X and the ability to go LSSJ (PL of 500X). Vegeta or Gohan kills him with ease.
7) Movie 10 doesn't occur because Broly is dead.

[Senzu_Bean]

Which means that Gohan has become a lot stronger than he was the last time he fought Broly. But this Gohan never improved from his Cell Games power...

Three words: Super Saiyan 2.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Hold their own =/= getting his ass kicked.

If you're not holding your own in a fight, it means you're gettin your ass kicked--whether it be in a subtle pace or quick one. Sure he was still standing, but it doesn't mean he wasn't being thrashed when Cell said what he did.

[Senzu_Bean]

Hold their own =/= getting his ass kicked.

If you're not holding your own in a fight, it means you're gettin your ass kicked--whether it be in a subtle pace or quick one. Sure he was still standing, but it doesn't mean he wasn't being thrashed when Cell said what he did.

Vegeta & Trunks: both are giving Cell Jr's a fight;

Piccolo: he holding on against the Cell Jr.;

Tienshinhan, Krillin & Yamcha: they are being thrashed by Cell Jr.'s.

My opinion thus I am out.

[Saiyan-Professor]

You ever thought that the Z-Senshi were so over powered that it looked as if they were a bunch of weaklings.

I'm not so much concerned about comparing them to Broly as comparing them to each other.

EDIT:

There's one more thing, too. When fighting Broly in Movie 10, Gohan gets a bit annoyed that Broly's giving him so much trouble, saying, "and here I'm supposed to have powered up considerably since then!"

Which means that Gohan has become a lot stronger than he was the last time he fought Broly. But this Gohan never improved from his Cell Games power, in fact, he's gotten a bit weaker over seven years. Which means that the Gohan who fought Broly before couldn't have been his MMSj Cell Games self.

Somewhat off-topic: if you guys were to shove movies 8 and 10 into continuity, how would you do it? I also strongly support the idea that Goku and Gohan weren't MSSJ. Taking this into effect, I think movies 8 and 10 would take place in Cell's timeline, meaning a timeline in which no future Cell was present. In other words, movie 8 would take place at the beginning of the 7-year gap for the manga, which would mean he's not a threat. Meanwhile, movie 8 wouldn't have Cell at all, so the very first ROSAT training wouldn't be as fierce as it was in the manga.

Movie 8's timeline:
1) PLs of 250X.
2) ROSAT. PLs of 300X.
3) Androids defeated with ease. At least 11 days go by. Broly shows up with a PL of 300-350X and the ability to go LSSJ (PL of 500X).
4) Movie 10 occurs because they failed to kill him in movie 8.

Manga timeline:
1) PLs of 250X.
2) ROSAT. PLs of 300X.
3) Unsure if they're strong enough to defeat Cell, everybody stays extra to train. PLs of 350X, which has the added bonus of leading to USSJ (PLs of 500X). Goku sees fault and instead begins MSSJ training.
4) Zenkais from fighting Cell and MSSJ training. 10 days training. Cell Games. PLs of 750X.
6) Gku is dead. At least 1 day goes by (for his funeral). Broly shows up with a PL of 300-350X and the ability to go LSSJ (PL of 500X). Vegeta or Gohan kills him with ease.
7) Movie 10 doesn't occur because Broly is dead.

I would posit a modified version of Movie #8 and 10 in the manner that the Daizenshuu does with #1 and #5. The Z- Senshi is relaxing prior to the Cell Games thus the Karaoke party right after the Room of Space and Time sessions. They go and fight Broli and then return for the Games. Movie #10 takes place during the 7 years following the Cell Games as is except for a few changes in the dialogue and a good explanation for Vegeta's absence.

[Kaboom]

Three words: Super Saiyan 2.

Gohan is dumb and doesn't even use it. I think if Broly were fighting an SSj2, he'd have gone down just as quickly as Cell did. But that A) Doesn't make for an interesting movie and B) Wouldn't have let Toei give Goku save the day in the spotlight, even if only for a few seconds.

[Pain]

Three words: Super Saiyan 2.

Gohan is dumb and doesn't even use it. I think if Broly were fighting an SSj2, he'd have gone down just as quickly as Cell did. But that A) Doesn't make for an interesting movie and B) Wouldn't have let Toei give Goku save the day in the spotlight, even if only for a few seconds.

But doesn't Broly's power rise continually?

[JulieYBM]

You ever thought that the Z-Senshi were so over powered that it looked as if they were a bunch of weaklings.

I'm not so much concerned about comparing them to Broly as comparing them to each other.

EDIT:

There's one more thing, too. When fighting Broly in Movie 10, Gohan gets a bit annoyed that Broly's giving him so much trouble, saying, "and here I'm supposed to have powered up considerably since then!"

Which means that Gohan has become a lot stronger than he was the last time he fought Broly. But this Gohan never improved from his Cell Games power, in fact, he's gotten a bit weaker over seven years. Which means that the Gohan who fought Broly before couldn't have been his MMSj Cell Games self.

Somewhat off-topic: if you guys were to shove movies 8 and 10 into continuity, how would you do it? I also strongly support the idea that Goku and Gohan weren't MSSJ. Taking this into effect, I think movies 8 and 10 would take place in Cell's timeline, meaning a timeline in which no future Cell was present. In other words, movie 8 would take place at the beginning of the 7-year gap for the manga, which would mean he's not a threat. Meanwhile, movie 8 wouldn't have Cell at all, so the very first ROSAT training wouldn't be as fierce as it was in the manga.

Movie 8's timeline:
1) PLs of 250X.
2) ROSAT. PLs of 300X.
3) Androids defeated with ease. At least 11 days go by. Broly shows up with a PL of 300-350X and the ability to go LSSJ (PL of 500X).
4) Movie 10 occurs because they failed to kill him in movie 8.

Manga timeline:
1) PLs of 250X.
2) ROSAT. PLs of 300X.
3) Unsure if they're strong enough to defeat Cell, everybody stays extra to train. PLs of 350X, which has the added bonus of leading to USSJ (PLs of 500X). Goku sees fault and instead begins MSSJ training.
4) Zenkais from fighting Cell and MSSJ training. 10 days training. Cell Games. PLs of 750X.
6) Gku is dead. At least 1 day goes by (for his funeral). Broly shows up with a PL of 300-350X and the ability to go LSSJ (PL of 500X). Vegeta or Gohan kills him with ease.
7) Movie 10 doesn't occur because Broly is dead.

I prefer Conan the SSJ's timeline (which includes all of the films with the series). http://db.schuby.org/daizex/viewtopic.p ... 149#202217

[Senzu_Bean]

Three words: Super Saiyan 2.

Gohan is dumb and doesn't even use it. I think if Broly were fighting an SSj2, he'd have gone down just as quickly as Cell did. But that A) Doesn't make for an interesting movie and B) Wouldn't have let Toei give Goku save the day in the spotlight, even if only for a few seconds.

Even though he doesn't use it, doesn't mean he doesn't have it.

Three words: Super Saiyan 2.

Gohan is dumb and doesn't even use it. I think if Broly were fighting an SSj2, he'd have gone down just as quickly as Cell did. But that A) Doesn't make for an interesting movie and B) Wouldn't have let Toei give Goku save the day in the spotlight, even if only for a few seconds.

But doesn't Broly's power rise continually?

Dumbest idea ever.

[Pain]

Three words: Super Saiyan 2.

Gohan is dumb and doesn't even use it. I think if Broly were fighting an SSj2, he'd have gone down just as quickly as Cell did. But that A) Doesn't make for an interesting movie and B) Wouldn't have let Toei give Goku save the day in the spotlight, even if only for a few seconds.

Even though he doesn't use it, doesn't mean he doesn't have it.

Gohan is dumb and doesn't even use it. I think if Broly were fighting an SSj2, he'd have gone down just as quickly as Cell did. But that A) Doesn't make for an interesting movie and B) Wouldn't have let Toei give Goku save the day in the spotlight, even if only for a few seconds.

But doesn't Broly's power rise continually?

Dumbest idea ever.

He's the one who said it.

[shinaobi]

.......But Broly's power does rise continually when he hits LSSJ.

And just because Gohan HAD SSJ2 doesn't mean he was smart enough to use it, nor does it mean that he was strong enough in basic SSJ to outdo Broly; and even if he was(there is a fairly valid argument in that Gohan was fighting not too far under Broly's SSJ level), he let the fight drag so long that Broly outdid him on what was, at the very least, sheer endurance.

[Pain]

.......But Broly's power does rise continually when he hits LSSJ.

And just because Gohan HAD SSJ2 doesn't mean he was smart enough to use it, nor does it mean that he was strong enough in basic SSJ to outdo Broly; and even if he was(there is a fairly valid argument in that Gohan was fighting not too far under Broly's SSJ level), he let the fight drag so long that Broly outdid him on what was, at the very least, sheer endurance.

So how strong could Broly have actually gotten?

[Wojak]

.......But Broly's power does rise continually when he hits LSSJ.

And just because Gohan HAD SSJ2 doesn't mean he was smart enough to use it, nor does it mean that he was strong enough in basic SSJ to outdo Broly; and even if he was(there is a fairly valid argument in that Gohan was fighting not too far under Broly's SSJ level), he let the fight drag so long that Broly outdid him on what was, at the very least, sheer endurance.

Ok, to get this straight:

SSJ2 seems to be reached only when the Saiya-jin has had some kind of training and reached the limit to be able to transform into SSJ2.
Both Goku and Vegeta reached it by training.
The only one to do that due to anger was Gohan.
I had to do with that he at the Cell games was strong enough to transform into that form without trying, other than getting enraged.

Later on, when he is 16, he has gotten weaker. So he cannot reach that form at will. If he tries really hard and gets enraged, he can transform.
Other than at the tournament, Gohan fails to reach that form again.

So no, he wasn't a SSJ2, and he probably couldn't transform due to his weakness.

Gohan was weakened compared to his Cell Games prime, and Brolly had gotten stronger.
Gohan knew Brolly's power from before, and stated that Brolly was so much trouble, even though Gohan had gotten stronger.
He thought he could easily handle him (why would he otherwise just jump into that fight, he he), but was wrong.
Brolly had gotten stronger, simply. Whether he got a zenkai or that his power gradually increases, I don't know.

Phew.

[Saiyan-Professor]

.......But Broly's power does rise continually when he hits LSSJ.

And just because Gohan HAD SSJ2 doesn't mean he was smart enough to use it, nor does it mean that he was strong enough in basic SSJ to outdo Broly; and even if he was(there is a fairly valid argument in that Gohan was fighting not too far under Broly's SSJ level), he let the fight drag so long that Broly outdid him on what was, at the very least, sheer endurance.

Ok, to get this straight:

SSJ2 seems to be reached only when the Saiya-jin has had some kind of training and reached the limit to be able to transform into SSJ2.
Both Goku and Vegeta reached it by training.
The only one to do that due to anger was Gohan.
I had to do with that he at the Cell games was strong enough to transform into that form without trying, other than getting enraged.

Later on, when he is 16, he has gotten weaker. So he cannot reach that form at will. If he tries really hard and gets enraged, he can transform.
Other than at the tournament, Gohan fails to reach that form again.

So no, he wasn't a SSJ2, and he probably couldn't transform due to his weakness.

Gohan was weakened compared to his Cell Games prime, and Brolly had gotten stronger.
Gohan knew Brolly's power from before, and stated that Brolly was so much trouble, even though Gohan had gotten stronger.
He thought he could easily handle him (why would he otherwise just jump into that fight, he he), but was wrong.
Brolly had gotten stronger, simply. Whether he got a zenkai or that his power gradually increases, I don't know.

Phew.

I am going with the Daizenshuu where it states Son Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 in the fight with Dabra which by extension means he was most likely one when he fought Broli, because lightning was not present in both fights.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

Please, it's not about the discussion of actual SSJ2 vs Broly. I was talking about the term in power. Anyway, I was watching Dragon Box Movie #8 I just got a couple of days ago. At near end of that movie, I saw Broly got his butt handed to him by greatly powered up Goku. So was powered up Goku equavalent SSJ2 in power? I remember there was a Daizenshuu book stating that SSJ2 overpowers LSSJ. Was this a hint that in the future Goku would go SSJ? I'm curious about your opinion.

P.S. At the scene just before Goku punched Broly's stomach, you could see Broly's hair being blonde instead of greenish color.

First, to begin with, Kakarrot was not a Super Saiyan 2 and Broli’s defeat was B.S., which is why some fans call that stupid attack the “Toei Punch”, because Toei would be the only ones that were silly enough to come up with an ending so ridiculous. Second, I do not recall any Daizenshuu comparing Legendary Super Saiyan with Super Saiyan 2. If anything the movies seems to imply that Broli’s form was stronger than Son Gohan’s Super Saiyan 2. As afar as the hair is concerned it was all due to Toei wanting to do something to make Broli distinct from the regular Super Saiyan forms because in the next movie they went with the regular coloring scheme.

I didn't say Goku was SSJ2. Everybody isn't pay attention to what I say. I said IN POWER

[Wojak]

I am going with the Daizenshuu where it states Son Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 in the fight with Dabra which by extension means he was most likely one when he fought Broli, because lightning was not present in both fights.

Well, to be fair, it can go both ways depending on what you rely on.

If you go by the Daizenshuu, he was a SSJ2 in both instances.

If you go by the manga, he was SSJ against Dabra, and by the lighting logic, the same against Brolly.

[Piccolo Daimao]

At the Cell Games, Goku and Gohan were WAY ahead of Vegeta and Trunks in power, and they in turn were WAY ahead of Piccolo.

Piccolo is almost even with SSJ Vegeta and Trunks at the Cell Games. Proof of this is Piccolo stood against Cell Jr. while Vegeta/Trunks were a match for them. Plus both Vegeta and Trunks are SSJ 2nd Grade... yep, you probably do not agree but whatever. Third Gohan and Goku exhibit signs of SSJ mastery like relaxed facial expressions.

Piccolo got his ass handed to him, just not as badly as the humans. Granted he's still standing, but unlike Trunks and Vegeta, his face is a bloody mess.

Piccolo looked just as worn out as Vegeta and Trunks, while the Cell Juniors didn't look tired at all. Cell siad that only Trunks and Vegeta could hold their own against the Cell Juniors, yet Piccolo was standing up. So, in my opinion, Piccolo did not get his ass handed to him. If he did get thrashed, he would've been down on the floor like Goku and the humans. I think the Cell Junior had the advantage in the fight, just not enough of one to make Piccolo shit to him. I would give them a 1.2X difference.

On the topic, no, I do not think Goku achieved a power equal to a Super Saiyan 2. I think LSSJ Broly was, at most, around Perfect Cell's full power. Goku just got a bullshit powerup.

[Dayspring]

Goku just got a bullshit powerup.

I think we can all agree here. If these guys don't have enough energy to maintain SSJ anymore, they don't have enough to boost an exhausted SSJ Goku beyond LSSJ.

My friend's "power damn" theory is making more and more sense to me.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Goku just got a bullshit powerup.

I think we can all agree here. If these guys don't have enough energy to maintain SSJ anymore, they don't have enough to boost an exhausted SSJ Goku beyond LSSJ.

My friend's "power damn" theory is making more and more sense to me.

I liked the dam cracking illustration because that is what exactly what it looked like, I accept that instead of “Ow wow they powered “Goku” up to Super Saiyan 3!” nonsense that some try to imply or the he was powered up to Super Saiyan 2 and Broli was just weak stuff.

[Rory]

Movie 8's timeline:
1) PLs of 250X.
2) ROSAT. PLs of 300X.
3) Androids defeated with ease. At least 11 days go by. Broly shows up with a PL of 300-350X and the ability to go LSSJ (PL of 500X).
4) Movie 10 occurs because they failed to kill him in movie 8.

Manga timeline:
1) PLs of 250X.
2) ROSAT. PLs of 300X.
3) Unsure if they're strong enough to defeat Cell, everybody stays extra to train. PLs of 350X, which has the added bonus of leading to USSJ (PLs of 500X). Goku sees fault and instead begins MSSJ training.
4) Zenkais from fighting Cell and MSSJ training. 10 days training. Cell Games. PLs of 750X.
6) Gku is dead. At least 1 day goes by (for his funeral). Broly shows up with a PL of 300-350X and the ability to go LSSJ (PL of 500X). Vegeta or Gohan kills him with ease.
7) Movie 10 doesn't occur because Broly is dead.

Fuck you. Fuck you, and your fucking multipliers. I hate you all.