Super Kaioken? can someone please explain this to me?!

Pain · Post by **Pain** » Sun May 03, 2009 6:44 pm

JulieYBM wrote:Toriyama likely completely forgot about the technique and even if he hadn't, Son would be a little hard to beat. It could be likely that Kaiô-ken just doesn't work with SSj.

I'd like to think that Toriyama just forgot about it, all together. Or maybe he didn't find it relevant, due to Son awakening the power of the Super Saiya-Jin.

Wojak · Post by **Wojak** » Sun May 03, 2009 7:11 pm

Going non-canon, I think that Kaio-ken needs a lot of concentration.
Goku even says that only one single mistake may make the Kaio-ken to backfire and cost him his life, hence him hesitating to use it against Nappa.

As a SSJ, prior to mastering the transformation, your mental status is unfocused and your mind filled with rage.
That would make it impossible to be able to fully focus on the Kaio-ken.
But, when Goku fought against Paikuhan, he had mastered the Super Saiya-jin transformation, making his mind calm and natural, enabling him to use the Kaio-ken.

Also, by the Otherworld Tournament, SSJ2 was considered as a SSJ with Gohan's super latent power included.
Thus, when Goku reached SSJ2, he got the same effects as if he used the SSJ together with Kaio-ken, and he preferred the least risky combination.

Why didn't he use it later then? Well, simply because of that there were no more filler arcs to mix it into. And Goku would be ridiculously overpowered too.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sun May 03, 2009 10:39 pm

Dayspring wrote:Can o'worms: What if SSJ3 is Super Kaioken?

This is an interesting theory. Kaioken x4 from SSJ2 = SSJ3?

Even if that's not true, I wouldn't be surprised if Goku's knowledge of the Kaioken served as a basis for coming up with SSJ3. It might also explain how Gotenks was able to reach it just by imitating Goku.

Wojak · Post by **Wojak** » Sun May 03, 2009 11:11 pm

Bussani wrote:
Dayspring wrote:Can o'worms: What if SSJ3 is Super Kaioken?
This is an interesting theory. Kaioken x4 from SSJ2 = SSJ3?

Even if that's not true, I wouldn't be surprised if Goku's knowledge of the Kaioken served as a basis for coming up with SSJ3. It might also explain how Gotenks was able to reach it just by imitating Goku.

Kaio-ken is a complex technique that only Goku learned. Not even Tenshinhan with his superior technique knowledge nor Piccolo with his high intelligence were able to learn that.
For Gotenks to learn the concepts of Kaio-ken and use it to reach SSJ3 seems farfetched.

Goten and Trunks saw Goku transform, and as Gotenks their power was high enough to reach that state without difficulty.

About Goku reaching SSJ3, it's probably because of that he always thinks "one step further, there has to be more to gain".

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sun May 03, 2009 11:44 pm

Wojak wrote:
Bussani wrote:
Dayspring wrote:Can o'worms: What if SSJ3 is Super Kaioken?
This is an interesting theory. Kaioken x4 from SSJ2 = SSJ3?

Even if that's not true, I wouldn't be surprised if Goku's knowledge of the Kaioken served as a basis for coming up with SSJ3. It might also explain how Gotenks was able to reach it just by imitating Goku.
Kaio-ken is a complex technique that only Goku learned. Not even Tenshinhan with his superior technique knowledge nor Piccolo with his high intelligence were able to learn that.
For Gotenks to learn the concepts of Kaio-ken and use it to reach SSJ3 seems farfetched.

Kinda like Goku learning the kamehameha after seeing it once. Gotenks' natural strength would undoubtedly have something to do with it, of course. But I agree with you, it was just a thought.

I still wouldn't be surprised if the concept itself of Kaioken lead to Goku inventing SSJ3, though.

Wojak · Post by **Wojak** » Mon May 04, 2009 12:25 am

Bussani wrote:
I still wouldn't be surprised if the concept itself of Kaioken lead to Goku inventing SSJ3, though.

Me neither. Goku was always the one being several steps ahead. If we don't count in the SSJ2, he was always the pioneer of the new levels.

The only one to master Genki Dama and Kaio-ken: Goku
The above Saiya-jin limit guy: Goku
The Super Saiya-jin: Goku
The one to quickly understand USSJ: Goku
The mastered Super Saiya-jin: Goku
The one to first master SSJ2: Goku
The one to first master SSJ3: Goku

He has used all of his knowledge to be able to go further than anyone else regarding his power and abilities.

DragonBalllKaiHD · Post by **DragonBalllKaiHD** » Mon May 04, 2009 4:11 am

Bussani wrote:
Dayspring wrote:Can o'worms: What if SSJ3 is Super Kaioken?
This is an interesting theory. Kaioken x4 from SSJ2 = SSJ3?

Even if that's not true, I wouldn't be surprised if Goku's knowledge of the Kaioken served as a basis for coming up with SSJ3. It might also explain how Gotenks was able to reach it just by imitating Goku.

Ohhh... Ouch! SSJ2 + Kaio Ken x4 = early grave

I think SSJ with Kaio Ken x10 or x15 is good for beyond SSJ3 in power. No need to go with SSJ2. If he does, it probably come with an instant burst. It will probably kill him. Remember Goku's explanation to Kuririn? Even slight mess-up, Kaio Ken would wreck his body. SSJ is more stable then Kaio Ken. It's just my opinion. But I do think if Ultimate Gohan uses Kaio Ken, he probably would have beaten Buu.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon May 04, 2009 4:22 am

DragonBalllKaiHD wrote:
Bussani wrote:
Dayspring wrote:Can o'worms: What if SSJ3 is Super Kaioken?
This is an interesting theory. Kaioken x4 from SSJ2 = SSJ3?

Even if that's not true, I wouldn't be surprised if Goku's knowledge of the Kaioken served as a basis for coming up with SSJ3. It might also explain how Gotenks was able to reach it just by imitating Goku.
Ohhh... Ouch! SSJ2 + Kaio Ken x4 = early grave

I think SSJ with Kaio Ken x10 or x15 is good for beyond SSJ3 in power. No need to go with SSJ2. If he does, it probably come with an instant burst. It will probably kill him. Remember Goku's explanation to Kuririn? Even slight mess-up, Kaio Ken would wreck his body. SSJ is more stable then Kaio Ken. It's just my opinion. But I do think if Ultimate Gohan uses Kaio Ken, he probably would have beaten Buu.

SSJ + Kaioken x10 would make him stronger than SSJ3. SSJ3 is only x4 SSJ2, which is x2 SSJ. Hence SSJ2 + Kaioken x4 = SSJ3 power.

SSJ + Kaioken x8 would also be the same as SSJ3.

I wonder if Mystic Gohan could even use Kaioken. I mean, he couldn't use SSJ, in theory. It would be interesting to know if Kaioken would work.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Mon May 04, 2009 5:19 am

DragonBalllKaiHD wrote:
Bussani wrote:
Dayspring wrote:Can o'worms: What if SSJ3 is Super Kaioken?
This is an interesting theory. Kaioken x4 from SSJ2 = SSJ3?

Even if that's not true, I wouldn't be surprised if Goku's knowledge of the Kaioken served as a basis for coming up with SSJ3. It might also explain how Gotenks was able to reach it just by imitating Goku.
Ohhh... Ouch! SSJ2 + Kaio Ken x4 = early grave

I think SSJ with Kaio Ken x10 or x15 is good for beyond SSJ3 in power. No need to go with SSJ2. If he does, it probably come with an instant burst. It will probably kill him. Remember Goku's explanation to Kuririn? Even slight mess-up, Kaio Ken would wreck his body. SSJ is more stable then Kaio Ken. It's just my opinion. But I do think if Ultimate Gohan uses Kaio Ken, he probably would have beaten Buu.

That`s a pretty interesting idea. I don`t know if its possible, but it is interesting.

Wojak · Post by **Wojak** » Mon May 04, 2009 7:52 am

Well, Kaioken seems to draw from your ki-reserves, rather than your latent potential (just my hypothesis)
So I guess Mystic Gohan could have used it.
But by that point they were extremely good at using their ki-reserves, so it would be more harm than gain I believe.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon May 04, 2009 8:03 am

Wojak wrote:Well, Kaioken seems to draw from your ki-reserves, rather than your latent potential (just my hypothesis)
So I guess Mystic Gohan could have used it.
But by that point they were extremely good at using their ki-reserves, so it would be more harm than gain I believe.

So just bringing out more of your available ki at once than you normally would? That sounds pretty plausible. I wonder if USSJ could be said to be somewhat similar, in basic principle.

Patient-mental · Post by **Patient-mental** » Mon May 04, 2009 8:34 am

Wojak wrote:
Bussani wrote:
I still wouldn't be surprised if the concept itself of Kaioken lead to Goku inventing SSJ3, though.
Me neither. Goku was always the one being several steps ahead. If we don't count in the SSJ2, he was always the pioneer of the new levels.

The only one to master Genki Dama and Kaio-ken: Goku
The above Saiya-jin limit guy: Goku
The Super Saiya-jin: Goku
The one to quickly understand USSJ: Goku
The mastered Super Saiya-jin: Goku
The one to first master SSJ2: Gohan
The one to first master SSJ3: Goku

He has used all of his knowledge to be able to go further than anyone else regarding his power and abilities.

Fixed

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon May 04, 2009 8:54 am

Patient-mental wrote:
Wojak wrote:
Bussani wrote:
I still wouldn't be surprised if the concept itself of Kaioken lead to Goku inventing SSJ3, though.
Me neither. Goku was always the one being several steps ahead. If we don't count in the SSJ2, he was always the pioneer of the new levels.

The only one to master Genki Dama and Kaio-ken: Goku
The above Saiya-jin limit guy: Goku
The Super Saiya-jin: Goku
The one to quickly understand USSJ: Goku
The mastered Super Saiya-jin: Goku
The one to first master SSJ2: Gohan
The one to first master SSJ3: Goku

He has used all of his knowledge to be able to go further than anyone else regarding his power and abilities.
Fixed

I figured he meant mastered, as opposed to attained.

Piccolo Daimao · Post by **Piccolo Daimao** » Mon May 04, 2009 9:20 am

Super Kaiô-Ken never appeared in the manga, only in the Other World Tournament filler that Goku fought Pikkon in. It's Goku using the Kaio-ken as a Super Saiyan.

I don't think he'd be able to do it in the manga. If he was, then he would've done it against Cell. If he had been able to do it in the manga, I think it would've been only as a mastered Super Saiyan, since before then, Super Saiyan was a strain on the user's body and adding Kaio-ken to the transformation would be too much pressure on Goku's body. In the anime, however, it's possible for Goku to do Super Kaio-ken.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Mon May 04, 2009 4:15 pm

Seriously who ever thought about Kaioken after Super Saiyan being introduced? No one and much less Akira Toriyama.

shinaobi · Post by **shinaobi** » Mon May 04, 2009 7:52 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote:Seriously who ever thought about Kaioken after Super Saiyan being introduced? No one and much less Akira Toriyama.

That is an unfair and unfounded assumption to make. Sure, Toriyama forgot about tails, but they hadn't been an issue since the end of the Saiyan Saga; by the time they would have been reintroduced everything had gone so far just about anyone could have forgotten about something like that.

Kaioken, on the other hand, had been consistently used to fight Freeza(and another significant villain) right up until Goku hit Super Saiyan, and I find it difficult to believe Toriyama would have forgotten it that quickly; he probably chose not to use it because there was no reason for Goku to have done it; I'm sure Super Kaioken crossed his mind at one point or another, and, as I continue to extrapolate, I'm willing to bet that USSJ was the end result.

That's not to say I see USSJ as a Super Kaioken. I honestly see Super Kaioken as being something feasible for a Goku who had, by his fight with Pikkon, rendered the strain of Super Saiyan functionally nill; while the end result might have been SSJ2 power, I don't quite think it would all be as usable as the power that comes from the aforementioned stage. It takes quite a bit of effort just to use and maintain Kaioken for the short bursts it's meant to be used in, whereas the same level of effort in SSJ2 would yield longer periods of playtime.

To summarize, I'd say that Super Kaioken is feasible, but horribly inefficient; given that Goku developed FPSSJ as a way to increase efficiency, I don't see him easily giving up that efficiency. In fact, I could reasonably foresee him losing. Wouldn't be the first time :S

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon May 04, 2009 7:57 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote:Seriously who ever thought about Kaioken after Super Saiyan being introduced? No one and much less Akira Toriyama.

Uh...I did, to be honest.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Mon May 04, 2009 8:02 pm

Wojak wrote:...The one to quickly understand USSJ: Goku
The mastered Super Saiya-jin: Goku

I would not be too quick to say that, Trunks' comment about Vegeta when Trunks fought Cell as a Super Saiyan 3rd Grade indicates Vegeta may have figured it out first.

...The one to first master SSJ2: Goku...

Out of Kakarrot and Vegeta we do not know who achieved it and mastered it first.

Wojak · Post by **Wojak** » Mon May 04, 2009 10:23 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote:
Wojak wrote:...The one to quickly understand USSJ: Goku
The mastered Super Saiya-jin: Goku
I would not be too quick to say that, Trunks' comment about Vegeta when Trunks fought Cell as a Super Saiyan 3rd Grade indicates Vegeta may have figured it out first.

...The one to first master SSJ2: Goku...
Out of Kakarrot and Vegeta we do not know who achieved it and mastered it first.

Firstly, Goku understood it much better. He understood it so such an extent that he figured out that it wasn't nessecary to use the USSJ transformations at all, and that they should stick with the SSJ.
So Vegeta did in fact not understand it fully.

The reason to why I say Goku was the one to master SSJ2 first of them is because of that Goku had lots of spare time to figure out and reach SSJ3.
If Vegeta did it first, he would have had time to figure out SSJ3.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Mon May 04, 2009 10:37 pm

Wojak wrote:...Firstly, Goku understood it much better. He understood it so such an extent that he figured out that it wasn't nessecary to use the USSJ transformations at all, and that they should stick with the SSJ.
So Vegeta did in fact not understand it fully.

If you look at the situation Vegeta and Trunks left the Room immediately and went to go take care of Cell. Kakarrot had the luxury to work through in and outs of the form because if Vegeta had not given into his nature the problem would have been solved. Trunks said that Vegeta refused to go 3rd Grade because he knew of its weaknesses, thus he gave some thought to the form. The reminder is just bad writing on Toriyama’s part.

The reason to why I say Goku was the one to master SSJ2 first of them is because of that Goku had lots of spare time to figure out and reach SSJ3.
If Vegeta did it first, he would have had time to figure out SSJ3.

There is no evidence that he mastered it first, Vegeta could have done so but he did not have the advantage of being dead and in a dimension that would allow him to attain Super Saiyan 3, which is essentially worthless. In addition, Kakarrot achieved the advantage in Ki because of his environment as well.