Super Kaioken? can someone please explain this to me?!

[Wojak]

If you look at the situation Vegeta and Trunks left the Room immediately and went to go take care of Cell. Kakarrot had the luxury to work through in and outs of the form because if Vegeta had not given into his nature the problem would have been solved. Trunks said that Vegeta refused to go 3rd Grade because he knew of its weaknesses, thus he gave some thought to the form. The reminder is just bad writing on Toriyama’s part.

__

There is no evidence that he mastered it first, Vegeta could have done so but he did not have the advantage of being dead and in a dimension that would allow him to attain Super Saiyan 3, which is essentially worthless. In addition, Kakarrot achieved the advantage in Ki because of his environment as well.

What luxury? Both Goku and Vegeta went in there to surpass the SSJ. They both had one year. Goku had never seen the USSJ before.
Vegeta comes out with USSJ, Goku with FPSSJ.
Goku gave more thought into it than Vegeta. Goku was always superior in transformations compared to Vegeta.

This leads us to your second point:
Gohan could maintain the SSJ for a short time when he transformed for the 1st time before he passed out.
Therefore, there isn't anything saying that you have to have extra ki or unlimited ki in your universe to be able to reach a transformation with a huge strain.

The SSJ3 could only last for some minutes in the normal world.
It would be very possible for Vegeta to reach that form at Earth, but he didn't.
Gotenks even reached that form without the unlimited energy and Goku's enviroment.

Plus, Goku was a step ahead of Vegeta in the Buu saga. As the SSJ2 needs some training and the right amount of power, I guess that Goku reached it first due to his higher power, which he already had from the start or that 7 year span. Plus, his training was more efficient in the Otherworld.

[Saiyan-Professor]

If you look at the situation Vegeta and Trunks left the Room immediately and went to go take care of Cell. Kakarrot had the luxury to work through in and outs of the form because if Vegeta had not given into his nature the problem would have been solved. Trunks said that Vegeta refused to go 3rd Grade because he knew of its weaknesses, thus he gave some thought to the form. The reminder is just bad writing on Toriyama’s part.

__

There is no evidence that he mastered it first, Vegeta could have done so but he did not have the advantage of being dead and in a dimension that would allow him to attain Super Saiyan 3, which is essentially worthless. In addition, Kakarrot achieved the advantage in Ki because of his environment as well.

What luxury? Both Goku and Vegeta went in there to surpass the SSJ. They both had one year. Goku had never seen the USSJ before.
Vegeta comes out with USSJ, Goku with FPSSJ.
Goku gave more thought into it than Vegeta. Goku was always superior in transformations compared to Vegeta.

This leads us to your second point:
Gohan could maintain the SSJ for a short time when he transformed for the 1st time before he passed out.
Therefore, there isn't anything saying that you have to have extra ki or unlimited ki in your universe to be able to reach a transformation with a huge strain.

The SSJ3 could only last for some minutes in the normal world.
It would be very possible for Vegeta to reach that form at Earth, but he didn't.
Gotenks even reached that form without the unlimited energy and Goku's enviroment.

Plus, Goku was a step ahead of Vegeta in the Buu saga. As the SSJ2 needs some training and the right amount of power, I guess that Goku reached it first due to his higher power, which he already had from the start or that 7 year span. Plus, his training was more efficient in the Otherworld.

There are just some many things wrong here that I do not feel alike addressing them tonight, maybe I will tomorrow.

[Wojak]

There are just some many things wrong here that I do not feel alike addressing them tonight, maybe I will tomorrow.

Easy easy. No hurry!

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

I am pretty sure Goku could use Kaio Ken x70 because of all these years Goku been training in preparation of Artifical Humans + his time in RoSaT. Goku has achieved his mastery over SSJ form. That was pretty hard training to. Kaio Ken x 4 was Goku's maximum usage of kaio Ken until he attained x10 after he completed his training in six days. So it makes sense that in 4 years, he might be able to use x70. It would probably suprass SSJ2 in power. Goku would have destroyed Cell instantly. But he probably wanted Gohan to suprass his father and pass that role to Gohan as the new protector of the Earth. Ever since Gohan was introduced, his hidden powers was the proof that Gohan will someday become Goku's successor. it was possible that his SSJ2 powers were hidden within him all along. Piccolo once said that if he, without using his rage, mastered his powers consiciously, and use it properly, he would be without doubt the strongest of the warriors. If Goku had taught Kaio Ken and GenkiDama, then it is done. Goku's teachings are thus pass down upon new generations.

[Wojak]

I am pretty sure Goku could use Kaio Ken x70 because of all these years Goku been training in preparation of Artifical Humans + his time in RoSaT. Goku has achieved his mastery over SSJ form. That was pretty hard training to. Kaio Ken x 4 was Goku's maximum usage of kaio Ken until he attained x10 after he completed his training in six days. So it makes sense that in 4 years, he might be able to use x70. It would probably suprass SSJ2 in power. Goku would have destroyed Cell instantly. But he probably wanted Gohan to suprass his father and pass that role to Gohan as the new protector of the Earth. Ever since Gohan was introduced, his hidden powers was the proof that Gohan will someday become Goku's successor. it was possible that his SSJ2 powers were hidden within him all along. Piccolo once said that if he, without using his rage, mastered his powers consiciously, and use it properly, he would be without doubt the strongest of the warriors. If Goku had taught Kaio Ken and GenkiDama, then it is done. Goku's teachings are thus pass down upon new generations.

No, by that time Kaio-ken x70 would be surpassed with the more efficient and less risky Full Power SSJ, even though the multiplier would be less here. Otherwise, Goku would have used USSJ instead of FPSSJ, right?
And Kaioken x70 would not surpass the SSJ2, since the multiplier for SSJ2 is 100x the base power.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

I am pretty sure Goku could use Kaio Ken x70 because of all these years Goku been training in preparation of Artifical Humans + his time in RoSaT. Goku has achieved his mastery over SSJ form. That was pretty hard training to. Kaio Ken x 4 was Goku's maximum usage of kaio Ken until he attained x10 after he completed his training in six days. So it makes sense that in 4 years, he might be able to use x70. It would probably suprass SSJ2 in power. Goku would have destroyed Cell instantly. But he probably wanted Gohan to suprass his father and pass that role to Gohan as the new protector of the Earth. Ever since Gohan was introduced, his hidden powers was the proof that Gohan will someday become Goku's successor. it was possible that his SSJ2 powers were hidden within him all along. Piccolo once said that if he, without using his rage, mastered his powers consiciously, and use it properly, he would be without doubt the strongest of the warriors. If Goku had taught Kaio Ken and GenkiDama, then it is done. Goku's teachings are thus pass down upon new generations.

No, by that time Kaio-ken x70 would be surpassed with the more efficient and less risky Full Power SSJ, even though the multiplier would be less here. Otherwise, Goku would have used USSJ instead of FPSSJ, right?
And Kaioken x70 would not surpass the SSJ2, since the multiplier for SSJ2 is 100x the base power.

Who says SSJ2 is a multiplier of 100x? There is NO proof to what you speculated.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

It basically says that in the first Super Exciting Guide.

[Bussani]

I am pretty sure Goku could use Kaio Ken x70 because of all these years Goku been training in preparation of Artifical Humans + his time in RoSaT. Goku has achieved his mastery over SSJ form. That was pretty hard training to. Kaio Ken x 4 was Goku's maximum usage of kaio Ken until he attained x10 after he completed his training in six days. So it makes sense that in 4 years, he might be able to use x70. It would probably suprass SSJ2 in power. Goku would have destroyed Cell instantly. But he probably wanted Gohan to suprass his father and pass that role to Gohan as the new protector of the Earth. Ever since Gohan was introduced, his hidden powers was the proof that Gohan will someday become Goku's successor. it was possible that his SSJ2 powers were hidden within him all along. Piccolo once said that if he, without using his rage, mastered his powers consiciously, and use it properly, he would be without doubt the strongest of the warriors. If Goku had taught Kaio Ken and GenkiDama, then it is done. Goku's teachings are thus pass down upon new generations.

No, by that time Kaio-ken x70 would be surpassed with the more efficient and less risky Full Power SSJ, even though the multiplier would be less here. Otherwise, Goku would have used USSJ instead of FPSSJ, right?
And Kaioken x70 would not surpass the SSJ2, since the multiplier for SSJ2 is 100x the base power.

Who says SSJ2 is a multiplier of 100x? There is NO proof to what you speculated.

It's in the Super Exciting Guide, as Chibi Mystic Gohan said.

The second part deals with Goku’s power-ups: Super Saiyan, the Super God Water, and the potara. Again, mostly all stuff we’ve heard before, recounting the legend of the Super Saiyan and all that. It says Super Saiyan 3 has a calmer heart than Super Saiyan 2, which does seem true. It gives the same old thing about Super Saiyan making Goku fifty times stronger than his normal form. It also says that Super Saiyan 2 has two times the strength of regular Super Saiyan, and that Super Saiyan 3 has four times the strength of Super Saiyan 2, so that’s something new.

2 * 50 = x100
100 * 4 = x400

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

It's in the Super Exciting Guide, as Chibi Mystic Gohan said.

The second part deals with Goku’s power-ups: Super Saiyan, the Super God Water, and the potara. Again, mostly all stuff we’ve heard before, recounting the legend of the Super Saiyan and all that. It says Super Saiyan 3 has a calmer heart than Super Saiyan 2, which does seem true. It gives the same old thing about Super Saiyan making Goku fifty times stronger than his normal form. It also says that Super Saiyan 2 has two times the strength of regular Super Saiyan, and that Super Saiyan 3 has four times the strength of Super Saiyan 2, so that’s something new.

2 * 50 = x100
100 * 4 = x400

What about Super Saiyan 4, then? 400 * 2 or 3?

[Pain]

What about Super Saiyan 4, then? 400 * 2 or 3?

I'm just glad that it isn't considered canon. The battle power would be ridiculous!

[Bussani]

Who says SSJ2 is a multiplier of 100x? There is NO proof to what you speculated.

It's in the Super Exciting Guide, as Chibi Mystic Gohan said.

The second part deals with Goku’s power-ups: Super Saiyan, the Super God Water, and the potara. Again, mostly all stuff we’ve heard before, recounting the legend of the Super Saiyan and all that. It says Super Saiyan 3 has a calmer heart than Super Saiyan 2, which does seem true. It gives the same old thing about Super Saiyan making Goku fifty times stronger than his normal form. It also says that Super Saiyan 2 has two times the strength of regular Super Saiyan, and that Super Saiyan 3 has four times the strength of Super Saiyan 2, so that’s something new.

2 * 50 = x100
100 * 4 = x400

What about Super Saiyan 4, then? 400 * 2 or 3?

Could be. Don't know. The guide doesn't talk about GT stuff.

If you took the x50 boost from SSJ and combined it with the x10 boost of Oozaru, you would get x500 the base form though, so that might be a good number to pick. It may not be a dramatic increase (only a x1.25 increase from SSJ3, in fact), but the fact that the form seems more stable and less wasteful than SSJ3 could make up for that.

[Saiyan-Professor]

What about Super Saiyan 4, then? 400 * 2 or 3?

I'm just glad that it isn't considered canon. The battle power would be ridiculous!

Well if you do not consider the Daizenshuu apart of the so-called “canon”, the information in the SEG was directly from Toriyama’s mouth.

...Could be. Don't know. The guide doesn't talk about GT stuff.

If you took the x50 boost from SSJ and combined it with the x10 boost of Oozaru, you would get x500 the base form though, so that might be a good number to pick. It may not be a dramatic increase (only a x1.25 increase from SSJ3, in fact), but the fact that the form seems more stable and less wasteful than SSJ3 could make up for that.

I would go with x800 because Toriyama went overboard with Super Saiyan 3 where it was 400 times the base so I do not see why Super Saiyan 4 would not be 800 times the base (double the amount SSJ 3 provides).

[Bussani]

Well if you do not consider the Daizenshuu apart of the so-called “canon”, the information in the SEG was directly from Toriyama’s mouth.

I think he meant that he was glad SSJ4 wasn't canon.

...Could be. Don't know. The guide doesn't talk about GT stuff.

If you took the x50 boost from SSJ and combined it with the x10 boost of Oozaru, you would get x500 the base form though, so that might be a good number to pick. It may not be a dramatic increase (only a x1.25 increase from SSJ3, in fact), but the fact that the form seems more stable and less wasteful than SSJ3 could make up for that.

I would go with x800 because Toriyama went overboard with Super Saiyan 3 where it was 400 times the base so I do not see why Super Saiyan 4 would not be 800 times the base (double the amount SSJ 3 provides).[/quote]

Sure. Why not? Like I said, x50 + x10 would be x500, but that doesn't take the other SSJ forms into account. It could be anything as far as we know.

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

Could be. Don't know. The guide doesn't talk about GT stuff.

If you took the x50 boost from SSJ and combined it with the x10 boost of Oozaru, you would get x500 the base form though, so that might be a good number to pick. It may not be a dramatic increase (only a x1.25 increase from SSJ3, in fact), but the fact that the form seems more stable and less wasteful than SSJ3 could make up for that.[/quote] Golden Oozaru = x500. Then he transformed into SSJ4 which would make his powers to be even hbigher than x500 the base form.

[Bussani]

Golden Oozaru = x500. Then he transformed into SSJ4 which would make his powers to be even hbigher than x500 the base form.

Some people think that Golden Oozaru and SSJ4 have the same raw power. Which could be true, considering Golden Oozaru Baby did decently against SSJ4 Goku, if I remember right. SSJ4 could just be the power of Golden Oozaru in a smaller, more efficient form, and with full control over that power. But again, who knows?

[RoarkVegeta]

What about Super Saiyan 4, then? 400 * 2 or 3?

Could be. Don't know. The guide doesn't talk about GT stuff.

If you took the x50 boost from SSJ and combined it with the x10 boost of Oozaru, you would get x500 the base form though, so that might be a good number to pick. It may not be a dramatic increase (only a x1.25 increase from SSJ3, in fact), but the fact that the form seems more stable and less wasteful than SSJ3 could make up for that.

Golden Oozaru = x500. Then he transformed into SSJ4 which would make his powers to be even hbigher than x500 the base form.

Woah. Don't quote 5 levels deep.

Back to Banjo Tooie~~~~!

[Bussani]

Woah. Don't quote 5 levels deep.

You realize the irony of saying that, and then quoting 6 layers deep, right?

[RoarkVegeta]

Woah. Don't quote 5 levels deep.

You realize the irony of saying that, and then quoting 6 layers deep, right?

Heh. Oops. I'm on a Wii. It would be hell to erase everything.

[Dayspring]

...Could be. Don't know. The guide doesn't talk about GT stuff.

If you took the x50 boost from SSJ and combined it with the x10 boost of Oozaru, you would get x500 the base form though, so that might be a good number to pick. It may not be a dramatic increase (only a x1.25 increase from SSJ3, in fact), but the fact that the form seems more stable and less wasteful than SSJ3 could make up for that.

I would go with x800 because Toriyama went overboard with Super Saiyan 3 where it was 400 times the base so I do not see why Super Saiyan 4 would not be 800 times the base (double the amount SSJ 3 provides).

But it has nothing to do with SSJ3; it's a combination of Oozaru and regular SSJ, so base x (10 x 50), which equals x500. One could even argue that it's only as strong as SSJ3 because of the transition from Golden Oozaru to SSJ4. Where it would be beneficial there is that it has none of SSJ3's drawbacks.

[Saiyan-Professor]

...Could be. Don't know. The guide doesn't talk about GT stuff.

If you took the x50 boost from SSJ and combined it with the x10 boost of Oozaru, you would get x500 the base form though, so that might be a good number to pick. It may not be a dramatic increase (only a x1.25 increase from SSJ3, in fact), but the fact that the form seems more stable and less wasteful than SSJ3 could make up for that.

I would go with x800 because Toriyama went overboard with Super Saiyan 3 where it was 400 times the base so I do not see why Super Saiyan 4 would not be 800 times the base (double the amount SSJ 3 provides).

But it has nothing to do with SSJ3; it's a combination of Oozaru and regular SSJ, so base x (10 x 50), which equals x500. One could even argue that it's only as strong as SSJ3 because of the transition from Golden Oozaru to SSJ4. Where it would be beneficial there is that it has none of SSJ3's drawbacks.

Well it would just seem ridiculous to go overboard with Super Saiyan 3 and then just have Super Saiyan 4 x100 over Super Saiyan 3. One would think that it would blow Super Saiyan 3 out of the water as far the multiplication is concerned. Perhaps Herms has some information from the GT Perfect Files.