Dragonball Dethroned

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
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Big Momma
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Post by Big Momma » Tue May 19, 2009 4:36 pm

SSJ2bardock wrote:
B wrote:We had the exclusive right to wave our dicks around, I think.

OP fans are actually running with that thought process quite furiously.
You are correct sir! This is just one of those stupid things they can wave in our faces now... until Naruto reaches volume 70 and becomes the new #1 :roll: I mean seriously, is that series EVER going to end?
Unless Kishimoto decides to pull a brand new villain out of freaking nowhere, then it's pretty much in its last arc or two right about now.


And about One Piece taking a bit to get into its groove...it IS a 300+ episode series, so taking 40 eps. to get into a groove doesn't seem like much when you compare it to the overall amount.
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Post by Kaboom » Tue May 19, 2009 4:47 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:By the way, Kaboom, speaking of the series getting better as it goes along, how have things been recently? I'm an anime viewer and reached the filler arc between Water 7 and Thriller Bark. Have things gotten even more badass as of late?
Yeah. I'll try not to spoil anything, but there's a lot of big names that the readers both have or haven't seen before popping back into the picture, and the StrawHats are discovering that despite their recent winning streak, they're not quite as ready for the big leagues as they thought.
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Post by SSJ Helldog » Tue May 19, 2009 6:33 pm

Big Momma wrote:And about One Piece taking a bit to get into its groove...it IS a 300+ episode series...
Actually over 400 episodes now.

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Post by JulieYBM » Tue May 19, 2009 7:09 pm

I probably shouldn't jump into this conversation, but alas, I'll be terse.

One Piece is far more concerned with plot and character then Dragonball [probably] ever was. That's not to say DB is terrible in those departments, but you can really tell post-Android/early Cell Toriyama was beginning to just go through the motions.

Meanwhile, Oda--One Piece being his first and only Manga--hasn't lost interest in the 12 years he's done his series. Hell, he recently commented that he wishes he could do splash pages for the entire chapter because of how big his vision for the series has been.

When was the last time Toriyama did a splash? Not to compare, but Oda seems to do 1-3 a chapter these days. O.o
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Post by SSj_Rambo » Tue May 19, 2009 7:30 pm

Has the One Piece manga had any other forms of releases? Like how Dragonball also had the Kanzenban? If it hasn't, and that chart is not counting the Kanzenban as well, I'm sure that'll make up a significant amount of the gap.

Hey, if you count the millions of copies of TV and Film Animation comics Dragonball has sold, surely One Piece will never catch up to it!

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Post by SSJ2bardock » Tue May 19, 2009 7:35 pm

SSj_Rambo wrote:Has the One Piece manga had any other forms of releases? Like how Dragonball also had the Kanzenban? If it hasn't, and that chart is not counting the Kanzenban as well, I'm sure that'll make up a significant amount of the gap.

Hey, if you count the millions of copies of TV and Film Animation comics Dragonball has sold, surely One Piece will never catch up to it!
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Post by Dayspring » Tue May 19, 2009 9:16 pm

Big Momma wrote:
SSJ2bardock wrote:
B wrote:We had the exclusive right to wave our dicks around, I think.

OP fans are actually running with that thought process quite furiously.
You are correct sir! This is just one of those stupid things they can wave in our faces now... until Naruto reaches volume 70 and becomes the new #1 :roll: I mean seriously, is that series EVER going to end?
Unless Kishimoto decides to pull a brand new villain out of freaking nowhere, then it's pretty much in its last arc or two right about now.
Which is friggin' likely seeing how Madara turned out to be the Mizukage for absolutely NO reason other than to show that he's also the Mizukage. I wouldn't be surprised if the entire Land of Mist is just waiting to invade the now decimated Leaf Village.
Granted it was probably a throwaway comment done to tie in the Zabuza arc (as it turns out every other story ended up being related through 6 degrees of seperation).

@Olivier: lol. Dayspring: using laziness to rock the irony since '84!
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Post by Wojak » Tue May 19, 2009 9:43 pm

I am just happy with that Dragonball inspired a lot of the young mangaka that we enjoy the stories of today.
I don't care how much it sells/has sold. The important thing for me is the impact it has had on the fighting Shônen genre.
Personally, I think that Dragonball is a great first manga for a reader that has never been exposed to manga before.
It's not too flashy, and not too complicated in story, and not too complicated in characters and development (which is why we can sit and discuss things over and over again).

Nowadays, the majority of the manga I read aren't even on that list (I'm reading around 20 or so I think, included completed manga), and I can count only five of them on that list that I'm reading (well, exept for Bleach that I dumped because of that it got too damn repetitive) and to add Naruto which I almost gave up following the story of when Sasuke and Itachi had their epic 1000 chapter fight.
No more time for Daizex. Goodbye folks!

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Post by Big Momma » Tue May 19, 2009 10:49 pm

JulieYBM wrote:I probably shouldn't jump into this conversation, but alas, I'll be terse.

One Piece is far more concerned with plot and character then Dragonball [probably] ever was. That's not to say DB is terrible in those departments, but you can really tell post-Android/early Cell Toriyama was beginning to just go through the motions.

Meanwhile, Oda--One Piece being his first and only Manga--hasn't lost interest in the 12 years he's done his series. Hell, he recently commented that he wishes he could do splash pages for the entire chapter because of how big his vision for the series has been.

When was the last time Toriyama did a splash? Not to compare, but Oda seems to do 1-3 a chapter these days. O.o
[n00b]What's splash?[/n00b]
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Post by DemonRin » Wed May 20, 2009 4:31 am

B wrote:
Olivier Hague wrote:
B wrote:54(and growing) is a greater number than 42. You can sell more when you have more.
By that logic, Slam Dunk dethroned Dragon Ball a while ago, then...
Wait, are you saying that is an incorrect statement? That you CAN'T sell more when you have more? If ten people buy 54 volumes of One Piece, that's 540 copies sold. If ten people buy 42 volumes of Dragon Ball, that's 420 copies sold. Obviously, it is not a strict rule that a longer series sells more, but it definately is a factor in the final number.
Jojo's Bizarre Adventure has 96 Volumes and counting

Kochikame has 160+

More Volumes =/= More sales

About what's going on now, One Piece is the clear winner as far as the shounen series of today go, so this is no surprise.

Bleach was GREAT Until after Soul Society... then just... ugh... Kubo has no originality... He just keeps repeating himself...

Naruto likewise was good up until just about the Rescue Gaara Arc, then Kishi lost his groove, and the characterization of several of the characters went to hell. I mean, Sasuke spends the ENTIRE SERIES trying to kill Itachi, and when he FINALLY DOES, it only takes one speech from Madara to make him SUDDENLY LOVE ITACHI and want to AVENGE HIM?! It's like, Kishi couldn't think of any way to write for Sasuke than to have him want to avenge someone, so he pulled a reason out of nowhere for why Sasuke would still want to Avenge someone...

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Post by B » Wed May 20, 2009 3:05 pm

DemonRin wrote:Bleach was GREAT Until after Soul Society... then just... ugh... Kubo has no originality... He just keeps repeating himself...
Holy crap, One Piece fans have absolutely no right to say that. It's fine if you have a problem with Bleach, but you can't blame Kubo for something when Oda's series has the exact same problem.

Really, One Piece is good because Oda is a good storyteller. The series itself is extremely repetitive, but what saves it is how well it flows. He's basically been writing the same plotline since the Kuro arc, with a few minor tweaks here and there, but it's good enough because he can tell that story like no one's business.

I concede that Oda is far superior at making the reader give a damn about his characters than Kubo, but more original writing? Frankly, I lawl.

Oh, yeah, Dragon Ball better get back up there on the top!
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Post by DemonRin » Wed May 20, 2009 3:20 pm

B wrote:Holy crap, One Piece fans have absolutely no right to say that. It's fine if you have a problem with Bleach, but you can't blame Kubo for something when Oda's series has the exact same problem.

Really, One Piece is good because Oda is a good storyteller. The series itself is extremely repetitive, but what saves it is how well it flows. He's basically been writing the same plotline since the Kuro arc, with a few minor tweaks here and there, but it's good enough because he can tell that story like no one's business.

I concede that Oda is far superior at making the reader give a damn about his characters than Kubo, but more original writing? Frankly, I lawl.

Oh, yeah, Dragon Ball better get back up there on the top!
What?... How has he been writing the "Same plotline" since Kuro?...
Arlong was a tyranical Dictator who had taken over a Villiage for eight years.
Loguetown was the Straw Hats trying to escape so they could go to the Grand Line
Whiskey Peak was a town of Bounty Hunters trying to lull the SHs into a false sense of security to capture them
Drum was that Nami was sick and they needed a Doctor to help her
Arabasta was a dark Criminal organization trying to usurp a kingdom
Skypiea was the first arc the Straw Hats just wanted to GTFO the island
the Davy Back Fight was literally just a game where you fight for crewmates.
Water Seven/Enies Lobby was the first ever "Rescue" arc where a character needed to be rescued.

It's never the same twice, meanwhile...

In The Soul Society/ Hueco Mundo arc of Bleach, Rukia/Orihime is taken and Ichigo has to go get her back. He's told not to by Rukia/The Gotei 13, however defies them and goes anyway with Chad and Ishida. When they arrive, they are guided by a seemingly weak little Cat/Girl named Yoruichi/Nell. they fight their way through, eventually getting split up. Ishida wins his fight, while Chad loses his drastically. Ichigo ALMOST loses his fight, until Yoruichi/Nell turns out NOT To be a Weak little Cat/Girl, but to be a Buxom and kickass woman who saves him at the last minute.

When you can explain two major story arcs with the EXACT SAME paragraph, just replace names of the specific characters at certain points, that's what you call a Cookie-cutter plot.

And I'm not trying to be rude or anything here, I want a serious discussion on the topic.

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Post by Miracles » Thu May 21, 2009 1:35 am

I believe B was saying the overall arcs of One Piece are repetitive. Go to island, explore island, save island [Or someone] and beat up the villain.^^^

I really try and enjoy all three of Shonen Jumps "Holy Trinity."
We can't really say which one is better than the other until the works are finished.

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Post by Olivier Hague » Thu May 21, 2009 2:47 am

DemonRin wrote:Jojo's Bizarre Adventure has 96 Volumes and counting
We're actually up to 97, now.
More Volumes =/= More sales
Weeeell... More volumes does = more sales
It's one factor. It's just that there are others (obviously).

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Post by Herms » Thu May 21, 2009 3:25 am

Big Momma wrote:[n00b]What's splash?[/n00b]
A two-page splash is when all or part of two adjacent pages in a comic form one big picture.
JulieYBM wrote:Meanwhile, Oda--One Piece being his first and only Manga--hasn't lost interest in the 12 years he's done his series. Hell, he recently commented that he wishes he could do splash pages for the entire chapter because of how big his vision for the series has been.
Hasn't Oda actually commented about wanting to end the series recently? I know he said he wants to hurry up with the current storyline so that Luffy and co. can reach the New World, which is one of the reasons why he's had to restrain himself on making splash pages (since devoting lots of space to what are essentially giant, single panels slows down plot advancement).
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Post by DemonRin » Thu May 21, 2009 4:58 am

Miracles wrote:I believe B was saying the overall arcs of One Piece are repetitive. Go to island, explore island, save island [Or someone] and beat up the villain.^^^

I really try and enjoy all three of Shonen Jumps "Holy Trinity."
We can't really say which one is better than the other until the works are finished.
On Little Garden they weren't saving anyone, they just stopped there to set the Log.
On Whiskey Peak, they weren't saving anyone either, they just wanted to Leave and Vivi ended up stowing away (Nami charged her for it) and there was no one villain to beat up, there was a whole TOWN of villains
In Skypiea at first they just wanted to relax, and then they just wanted to get the hell off the island. Enel ended up getting what he wanted, he left on his Ark, Luffy didn't stop him.
On Water Seven there wasn't anyone to save, nor was there an Island to save. They got caught up in an assassination attempt, but got totally beaten.
Enies Lobby, the Straw Hats went on a total offensive for the first time, and for the first time the series had a "Rescue" arc. (Think Soul Society in Bleach)

Spoilers ahead
In Thriller Bark, Zoro got DECIMATED By Kuma
and On the Sabaody Archipelago, They were DESTROYED By Kuma, the good guys lost completely.

There are no two arcs you can directly do a detailed comparison of side by side and explain with the same paragraph.

The road-manga Island theme actually helps make the series much much less repetitive, since the SHs have yet to visit an island with repeating scenery.

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Post by Patient-mental » Thu May 21, 2009 6:26 am

If you break it down, per manga, dragonball is still easily in front

3 Million per OP manga
3.5 Million per DB Manga

OP 53 Chapters (2,981,132)
DB 42 Chapters (3,571,428)

Plus OP has been running for longer and is still running, larger total exposure, more chapters etc

Devo that naruto is in the list, Awesomely happy about Bleach tho

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Post by DemonRin » Thu May 21, 2009 7:17 am

Patient-mental wrote:If you break it down, per manga, dragonball is still easily in front

3 Million per OP manga
3.5 Million per DB Manga

OP 53 Chapters (2,981,132)
DB 42 Chapters (3,571,428)

Plus OP has been running for longer and is still running, larger total exposure, more chapters etc

Devo that naruto is in the list, Awesomely happy about Bleach tho
The sales records also include Dragon Ball's Several re-printings and the Kanzenban I believe.

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Post by Patient-mental » Thu May 21, 2009 8:36 am

Reprints don't count as new chapters.... Thats like disregarding any reprinting of an author after the second print as viable figures to be used in a situation like this...

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Post by Olivier Hague » Thu May 21, 2009 9:24 am

Patient-mental wrote:If you break it down, per manga, dragonball is still easily in front
Again, it's behind Slam Dunk, then.

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