Theories on the "Legendary" Super Saiyan

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sun May 24, 2009 9:58 pm

So lately, I've been thinking. It scares me a little, but that's beyond the point.

Specifically, I was thinking about just what the "Legendary" Super Saiyan title really entails. Up through the Freeza saga, it was simple. It was revealed as being the golden-haired, powerful, epic transformation we all know and love, and Goku was THE lucky, once-in-a-thousand-years individual to achieve it. However, that solidarity didn't last, as throughout the rest of the manga, Toriyama ended up inserting a lot more Super Saiyans into the story. Goku was still the most special of them all, the one who was always one step ahead and making the breakthroughs. So I suppose if anyone within the manga should be labeled as "the" Super Saiyan, it'd be Goku.

But outside of that, in the Toei-inspired "expanded universe" realm of DragonBall, though, we got a few more peeks, both pre- and post-Goku's transformation, as to what the Super Saiyan was supposed to be. The first one was from Vegeta's imagination, during the Freeza saga. He pictured a gigantic golden Oozaru. He claimed that the last Saiyan to go Super ended up losing control of his massive power, and destroying himself and everything around him. This image probably later inspired the design for Super Oozaru from GT, and subsequently SSj4, which could also be seen as the "true" Super Saiyan state.

And of course, we've got Broly. A hulking beast of a Super Saiyan with an apparent extra, unique transformation all his own, the "Legendary Super Saiyan stage."

But I've been thinking, these two non-canon ideas may work together. My suggestion is that "Legendary" Super Saiyan isn't a form. It's a condition.

Every thousand years or so, a generation or two of the Saiyan race as a whole starts gaining more power more easily. And among them is born "the" Super Saiyan. Now a normal Saiyan still has to really work hard to gain their power. We saw guys like Bardock who would be constantly getting larger and larger zenkais and the like, which would rocket them up to uncommonly high levels, i.e. 10,000 or so. Then folks like Goku and Vegeta, who had circumstances work in their favor so that eventually they were getting abnormally huge zenkais one after another, spiraling them upwards into the millions, and eventually letting them transform with the right stimulus.

But this guy, the "legendary" Super Saiyan... He doesn't have to try. Sure, he can get zenkais and train and stuff too, but he doesn't even need them. He constantly and naturally gains power without having to do jack squat. He doesn't even wait to be born first. From the time he's conceived, his ki is constantly growing. Eventually, over the years he becomes so powerful that the actual golden-haired transformation just happens. There's very little that doesn't cause him to get stronger.

THIS is what I think was the case with Broly. He was gaining power even while in the womb, and was BORN with a PL of 10,000, even if he wasn't capable of willingly utilizing it yet (he was just a baby, after all). As he got older, his power kept on increasing, and he eventually became a Super Saiyan. Even when he was half-dead during the seven years between his first and second movies, his power continued to grow. That allowed him to go from weaker than SemiPerfect Cell (IMO) to beating up an MSSj like it weren't no thang.

In addition, it's also possible that he got a zenkai from the injury Goku dealt him. Normally, I'd figure that zenkais either stop or become insignificantly small once Super Saiyan is acheived (the flow of the manga's story and Daizenshu 7's power lists support this), but this may be another exception for the "Legendary" Super Saiyan.

Moving on, aside from his massive power, there's one other big aspect of Broly that stands out. His special brand of craziness. Saiyans, much less Super ones, are already naturally agressive, but Broly was just all kinds of destructive and psychotic. This was surely mostly to blame on his traumatic experiences as a child, as well as the circumstances under which he grew up. But it may also be a side-effect of the power growth. Having all this continually-increasing, hard-to-control power out of nowhere would certainly be a catalyst for an immense amount of mental stress. It's no surprise that Broly would end up being nuttier than a fruitcake.

So how does his big bulky form factor in? Simple. Essentially, it's USSj. Broly's got craploads of power, and he's channeling it the only way he knows how. Forcing more and more of it into his Super Saiyan form. He may or may not suffer the speed downsides that others do (he certainly never seemed to move very fast in either movie 8 or 10), but it's the same in concept. In theory, although his power would eventually rival or surpass it, Broly will never acheive the Super Saiyan 2 state. This is because in order to reach it, Super Saiyan level 1 must first be mastered, and doing so requires discipline, calmness, and self-control. I don't think I need to tell anyone here that those are qualities Broly utterly lacks.

So that's how I think the "Legendary" Super Saiyan condition works. Massive power is gained by doing nothing. So taking all this into consideration, lets move on and try to connect Vegeta's envisioned version.

I figure it's quite simple. There was only one real difference between Broly and this old-timey Super Saiyan. A tail.

So imagine this. Centuries ago, the current "legendary" Saiyan was not much unlike Broly. Constantly growing in power, became a Super Saiyan, and not quite fully in control of his mental faculties. Unlike Broly, however, he never lost his tail. Do you know what happens when a Super Saiyan goes Oozaru? Yup, you get a Golden Oozaru.

Only the most well-trained and mentally-disciplined Saiyans are capable of retaining their full consciousness and controlling themselves while in the Oozaru form. Somehow, I seriously doubt someone who's already bordering on crazy would be able to do so. So at some point, this tailed Super Saiyan saw a full moon, transformed, and in his uncontrolled, animalistic rage, his massive power ended up destroying everything around him, including himself.

So there's my theory. What do you guys think? Anything glaringly wrong with it? What kind of ideas do you guys have?

Rod · Post by **Rod** » Sun May 24, 2009 10:14 pm

This is why I don't like Broly or his movies, I don't consider there to be one "Legendary" super Saiyajin, it's only legendary because no one has ever seen it because no one knows how to achieve it, therefore it's considered a legend.

That said, your theory works as long as you consider the movies and anime one single time line

Post by **Herms** » Sun May 24, 2009 10:50 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:The first one was from Vegeta's imagination, during the Freeza saga. He pictured a gigantic golden Oozaru. He claimed that the last Saiyan to go Super ended up losing control of his massive power, and destroying himself and everything around him.

Is that part in the Japanese versions? The "losing control of his massive power" part; I know the Oozaru thing is there. I see people reference that line all the time, but I don't remember it at all.

One other bit of information on the legend of the Super Saiyan is that Vegeta says/thinks during Goku's fight is that the Super Saiyan is a warrior who surpasses the wall that now genius warrior could overcome (Viz leaves this part out for some reason).

GT Perfect Files vol.1 says that the anime staff officially considered Golden Oozaru as possibly being the true legendary Super Saiyan that Vegeta was talking about (that's right, they officially said it "might be"...that's helpful).

Krakabeast · Post by **Krakabeast** » Sun May 24, 2009 10:54 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:(he certainly never seemed to move very fast in either movie 8 or 10)

He was dodging Goku's, Gohan's, Trunks', and Piccolo's attacks all at once in Movie 8. How is that not fast?

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sun May 24, 2009 11:06 pm

Herms wrote:Is that part in the Japanese versions? The "losing control of his massive power" part; I know the Oozaru thing is there. I see people reference that line all the time, but I don't remember it at all.

I remember SOMETHING about the Super Saiyan ending up destroying himself. I don't typically watch the dub, especially not the Freeza saga, so it had to have been from the Japanese.

Krakabeast wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:(he certainly never seemed to move very fast in either movie 8 or 10)
He was dodging Goku's, Gohan's, Trunks', and Piccolo's attacks all at once in Movie 8. How is that not fast?

Musta slipped my mind. Been a little while since I watched it, and even then, my attention tends to wander a bit once the plot half of the film is over. I mostly just remember Broly stomping around, tanking attacks, and clotheslining everyone. XD

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Mon May 25, 2009 12:07 am

Herms wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:The first one was from Vegeta's imagination, during the Freeza saga. He pictured a gigantic golden Oozaru. He claimed that the last Saiyan to go Super ended up losing control of his massive power, and destroying himself and everything around him.
Is that part in the Japanese versions? The "losing control of his massive power" part; I know the Oozaru thing is there. I see people reference that line all the time, but I don't remember it at all.

One other bit of information on the legend of the Super Saiyan is that Vegeta says/thinks during Goku's fight is that the Super Saiyan is a warrior who surpasses the wall that now genius warrior could overcome (Viz leaves this part out for some reason).

GT Perfect Files vol.1 says that the anime staff officially considered Golden Oozaru as possibly being the true legendary Super Saiyan that Vegeta was talking about (that's right, they officially said it "might be"...that's helpful).

In the Japanese, we only have silence during those scenes but the images seemed to imply what the Funimation (Vegeta) commentary stated and then we have the GT Perfect Files pretty much corroborating what was stated in dub.

JAPPO · Post by **JAPPO** » Mon May 25, 2009 12:13 am

It's all a big mess. I doubt it makes sense even if you make up shit to fill in the blanks.

There should have only been 1 super saiyan (Goku) like originally stated. The movies (Brolli) just fuck it up even more.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon May 25, 2009 1:36 am

Krakabeast wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:(he certainly never seemed to move very fast in either movie 8 or 10)
He was dodging Goku's, Gohan's, Trunks', and Piccolo's attacks all at once in Movie 8. How is that not fast?

Keep in mind that USSJ also increases speed, only USSJ2 decreases it. If USSJ2 loses only some of the USSJ speed boost, USSJ2 would be stronger AND faster than everybody else who are all in regular SSJ. If it loses all of the gain, it would still be equal in speed to a regular SSJ.

mister yummy · Post by **mister yummy** » Mon May 25, 2009 6:39 am

Um... what is MSSJ?

Rory · Post by **Rory** » Mon May 25, 2009 7:34 am

JAPPO wrote:It's all a big mess. I doubt it makes sense even if you make up shit to fill in the blanks.

There should have only been 1 super saiyan (Goku) like originally stated. The movies (Brolli) just fuck it up even more.

Agree'd, Goku's transformation just isn't as meaningful when you put it alongside all the later Super Saiyans in the show.

Post by **Herms** » Mon May 25, 2009 7:35 am

mister yummy wrote:Um... what is MSSJ?

I think it's another name for Full-Power Super Saiyan, the mastered form of Super Saiyan (hence "MSSJ") that Goku used at the Cell Games after his whole "constantly being a Super Saiyan" training.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon May 25, 2009 8:30 am

Herms wrote:I think it's another name for Full-Power Super Saiyan, the mastered form of Super Saiyan (hence "MSSJ") that Goku used at the Cell Games after his whole "constantly being a Super Saiyan" training.

Ah, yes, sorry. The 'M' stands for "Mastered," with MSSj being another fan-term for "Full-Power Super Saiyan." I originally crafted this thread for MFG, where using such terms are like second nature to most folks.

Freeza Heika · Post by **Freeza Heika** » Mon May 25, 2009 11:33 am

I've always thought that Gohan was in the same boat as Broly. The primary difference being that Gohan didn't have access to his power for a good portion of his life, and when he finally does have access his power, he is stronger than Broly (IMO). His power is conducted in a way never seen before for such a grandiose amount, no transformation. (I can't remember if it was dub or not that said he wouldn't be able to control his power transformed).

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Mon May 25, 2009 2:27 pm

JAPPO wrote:It's all a big mess. I doubt it makes sense even if you make up shit to fill in the blanks.

There should have only been 1 super saiyan (Goku) like originally stated. The movies (Brolli) just fuck it up even more.

Well then, Toriyama should have ended after the Freeza Saga because it would have been very boring to have Kakarrot running around saving everyone since he would be the only Super Saiyan. He just about did that anyway with other Super Saiyans around but at least he did not take up every panel/scene in the manga/anime.

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Mon May 25, 2009 3:35 pm

If there's anything that makes one legendary, it has to be the incredible fighting spirit that Goku has (represented by the twinkle in his eye). Bardock, Gohan and Goten all had that at some point, but never like Goku.

Goku could push himself to the farthest limits - and he inspired others to do the same. That alone makes him special in a Saiyan way, so to speak: for a race that's all about fighting passion, Goku held the golden fleece of that particular character trait. It's something he inherited from Bardock, whose passion drove him to exceed the King in his day.

I also like to think that the SSj 3 (or Transcendent Super Saiyan, as I like to call it), can only be reached by those who have as much drive as Goku - including those who are inspired by him. In any case, the legendary Super Saiyan for me is the one who reaches SSj 3 first, through his incredible fighting spirit.

Broly was just a mutant - sure, he had exorbitant amounts of power, but he'd never have the drive to show for it. On the other hand, Goku would eventually surpass even Broly (which of course he more than did in the end). It's the same as what happened with Vegeta - even though he's from superior lineage, Goku's drive propels him from lowest-class to legendary status.

EDIT: now that I think about it, "the drive" has always been a trait of the good guy, but never of the villain. Is there a single villain who relied on wit or drive instead of brute force and superior blood? Freeza was like that, as was Cell (who bitched and moaned about Vegeta being stronger instead of toiling to surpass him). Wouldn't it be interesting to meet a bad guy who relied on fighting passion / spirit?
To help the consistency of my story along, you could see the ancient Super Saiyan this way. A evil being with the drive and passion of a good guy - now that's a scary thought!!

JAPPO · Post by **JAPPO** » Mon May 25, 2009 3:52 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote: Well then, Toriyama should have ended after the Freeza Saga because...

Yes.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Mon May 25, 2009 4:17 pm

Terra-jin wrote:If there's anything that makes one legendary, it has to be the incredible fighting spirit that Goku has (represented by the twinkle in his eye). Bardock, Gohan and Goten all had that at some point, but never like Goku.

Goku could push himself to the farthest limits - and he inspired others to do the same. That alone makes him special in a Saiyan way, so to speak: for a race that's all about fighting passion, Goku held the golden fleece of that particular character trait. It's something he inherited from Bardock, whose passion drove him to exceed the King in his day.

I also like to think that the SSj 3 (or Transcendent Super Saiyan, as I like to call it), can only be reached by those who have as much drive as Goku - including those who are inspired by him. In any case, the legendary Super Saiyan for me is the one who reaches SSj 3 first, through his incredible fighting spirit.

Broly was just a mutant - sure, he had exorbitant amounts of power, but he'd never have the drive to show for it. On the other hand, Goku would eventually surpass even Broly (which of course he more than did in the end). It's the same as what happened with Vegeta - even though he's from superior lineage, Goku's drive propels him from lowest-class to legendary status.

EDIT: now that I think about it, "the drive" has always been a trait of the good guy, but never of the villain. Is there a single villain who relied on wit or drive instead of brute force and superior blood? Freeza was like that, as was Cell (who bitched and moaned about Vegeta being stronger instead of toiling to surpass him). Wouldn't it be interesting to meet a bad guy who relied on fighting passion / spirit?
To help the consistency of my story along, you could see the ancient Super Saiyan this way. A evil being with the drive and passion of a good guy - now that's a scary thought!!

Is there any hint in the manga or anime that the Legend was supposed to be any of the things you mentioned? Broli fits the description far better than anyone does because the Daizenshuu states that his Legendary Form was “instinct driven” which coincides with what Ginyu and others had stated. However, the comment in the GT Perfect Files seems to coincide with at least what others call the “anime canon”.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Mon May 25, 2009 4:32 pm

JAPPO wrote:
Saiyan-Professor wrote: Well then, Toriyama should have ended after the Freeza Saga because...
Yes.

No, not really. Post-Freeza has given so many so much hapiness that it'd be pretty disrespectful to demean the material like that.

And yes, this applies even to GT.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon May 25, 2009 5:38 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote:[Oozaru flashback images]

I never have and never will think that Toei was implying a golden Oozaru in that scene. In fact, I think the only reason anyone believes that is because it eventually inspired the Golden Oozaru in GT. But it's just back lit with golden highlights, much like how Goku's hair often has blue highlights. Vegeta was just picturing a regular Oozaru as he obviously doesn't know what an SSJ is and the only Saiya-jin transformation he knew of at the time was the Oozaru, so what else would he imagine when thinking about a Saiya-jin transformation?

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Mon May 25, 2009 6:46 pm

Terra-jin wrote:EDIT: now that I think about it, "the drive" has always been a trait of the good guy, but never of the villain. Is there a single villain who relied on wit or drive instead of brute force and superior blood? Freeza was like that, as was Cell (who bitched and moaned about Vegeta being stronger instead of toiling to surpass him). Wouldn't it be interesting to meet a bad guy who relied on fighting passion / spirit?
To help the consistency of my story along, you could see the ancient Super Saiyan this way. A evil being with the drive and passion of a good guy - now that's a scary thought!!

Piccolo.

Although Cell did start off weaker than even the Androids in the Cell Saga... and ended up the strongest.

Kanzenshuu

Theories on the "Legendary" Super Saiyan

Theories on the "Legendary" Super Saiyan

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