The "original" ending

Booney · Post by **Booney** » Mon May 25, 2009 12:46 pm

I hear a lot about the Frieza saga being the original ending of the series.

And so it made me wonder how much it would differ compared to the ending of the Frieza saga as we now know.

Is the only change from the original Goku and Frieza still being alive?
Or were more changes made to continue the series?

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Mon May 25, 2009 12:49 pm

I think Vegeta wasn`t supposed to come back to life.

the1payday · Post by **the1payday** » Mon May 25, 2009 1:15 pm

Yea...I've heard that too...with a couple variations. There was one that said that Goku and Freeza both died on planet Namek in the middle of their battle still, when the planet explodes and kills them both. Another one was that Goku defeats Freeza, but still doesn't make it off the planet in time. Also, with either ending, Son Goku, Freeza, Vegeta, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Chouzu, and Piccolo, would have all been dead at the series end. It would have left Son Gohan and Bulma being the only surviving primary characters by the stories end. Epic huh?

FuniYamcha · Post by **FuniYamcha** » Mon May 25, 2009 1:27 pm

I've seen the Goku was supposed to die thing and always wondered, why exactly would everyone have stayed dead at the end like that? Unless you're remodeling a decent amount of the story, everyone except Goku and Freeza would be on Earth like normal, so then they could begin wishing people back like they did, except I'm assuming Goku would be included, barring any post-Cell Games thing where he asks to stay in the Other World. So only Vegeta and Freeza would remain dead from what I can tell.

Post by **Herms** » Mon May 25, 2009 1:27 pm

All of those rumors are based on nothing.

the1payday wrote: Epic huh?

Not really.

the1payday · Post by **the1payday** » Mon May 25, 2009 2:55 pm

Herms wrote:All of those rumors are based on nothing.

the1payday wrote: Epic huh?
Not really.

Um...no. Those rumors are based on things Akira Toriyama himself has said in various interviews throughout the years.

From what I've gathered, perhaps Piccolo was originally supposed to die when shot through the chest by Freeza as opposed to just being wounded. This would have rendered Earth's Dragon Balls useless, and left all the heroes dead in the process. That may be speculation though, although in one interview, Akira Toriyama did say that he wanted a sort of "passing of the torch" theme to go to Son Gohan, who would have been the only real hero left alive at the end of everything. Who knows though, he kept going until the Buu arc, so that's what we have to go by.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon May 25, 2009 3:54 pm

Akira Toriyama in Weekly Jump 1989 #49 (reprinted in Daizenshuu 7) wrote:Here I was thinking Dragonball would last about a year, and yet it's already surpassed Dr Slump! I'm very happy, but it's also terrifying, no?

This is taken from the "Best Of Akira Toriyama's Dragonball Postfaces" in Daizenshuu 7. One could say it confirms the rumor about the series originally being slated to end after Pilaf, not Freeza.

Sidenote: Some of the postfaces are friggin' hilarious. I'm going to translate them and post them in the GD later.

Post by **Herms** » Tue May 26, 2009 10:19 am

the1payday wrote:Um...no. Those rumors are based on things Akira Toriyama himself has said in various interviews throughout the years.

Except that they're not. Toriyama has said several times that he didn't plan on DragonBall lasting as long as it did, but nothing more specific than that. As far as I know, and as far as anyone has been able to show, Toriyama has never said anything in any interview about originally intending to end the series at Freeza, and have Goku/Piccolo/anyone else die.

Virgil · Post by **Virgil** » Tue May 26, 2009 2:55 pm

This is where the confusion comes from:

http://anime.myfavoritegames.com/anime- ... -real.html

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that Toriyama confirmed in countless interviews (listed in Daizenshuu Volumes) that he never intended to prolong DragonBall. Intentions were, if I recall correctly, to end it after the Pilaf Saga, after the 21st Budokai, after the 22nd Budokai, after the Piccolo Damaio Saga and after the 23rd Budokai.

If you want, I can search the interviews where he stated most of these things. If I'm not mistaken either, you can also find some information in the Viz Interview translations with Toriyama.

Tweaker · Post by **Tweaker** » Tue May 26, 2009 3:01 pm

Virgil wrote:http://anime.myfavoritegames.com/anime- ... -real.html

Those interviews look so fake that I nearly vomited upon reading them. People actually believe this crap?

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Tue May 26, 2009 3:39 pm

Tweaker wrote:
Virgil wrote:http://anime.myfavoritegames.com/anime- ... -real.html
Those interviews look so fake that I nearly vomited upon reading them. People actually believe this crap?

Ha ha oh wow. That's....just awful.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue May 26, 2009 4:01 pm

Herms wrote:Except that they're not. Toriyama has said several times that he didn't plan on DragonBall lasting as long as it did, but nothing more specific than that. As far as I know, and as far as anyone has been able to show, Toriyama has never said anything in any interview about originally intending to end the series at Freeza, and have Goku/Piccolo/anyone else die.

The biggest thing that leads me to believe Freeza was meant to be an/the end is how utterly contrived it gets when it tries to undo all the stuff that would make it hard to continue:

-The Dragonballs can't bring someone back to life who suffered a natural death! ...but if they were really sad, Shenron can bring them back for the bit of life the sadness took away...which just happens to be about fifteen minutes and one other Dragonball wish.

-Freeza gets cut in half, blows his remaining energy on a ki blast, gets blasted by a Super Saiyan attack, lava erupts and covers him, Goku senses no ki, and then the planet fucking blows up BUT HE'S STILL ALIVE WOOOAAAAHHHH

-We see Goku screaming as the planet's crust breaks apart and lava erupts around him... but we needs the Goky, so he magically *wiggles fingers* has time to see a space pod, fly over to it, get in, and take off without being caught in the explosion.

Post by **Herms** » Tue May 26, 2009 7:17 pm

None of that's actually solid exidence though.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue May 26, 2009 9:08 pm

Rocketman wrote:-The Dragonballs can't bring someone back to life who suffered a natural death! ...but if they were really sad, Shenron can bring them back for the bit of life the sadness took away...which just happens to be about fifteen minutes and one other Dragonball wish.

Dying man undergoing a shitload of stress resulting in premature death is implausible to you? O.o

-Freeza gets cut in half, blows his remaining energy on a ki blast, gets blasted by a Super Saiyan attack, lava erupts and covers him, Goku senses no ki, and then the planet fucking blows up BUT HE'S STILL ALIVE WOOOAAAAHHHH

People get brought back to life all the time via science. Seeing how much super-science got tacked onto Freeza, it's not irrealistic that he'd come back either.

-We see Goku screaming as the planet's crust breaks apart and lava erupts around him... but we needs the Goky, so he magically *wiggles fingers* has time to see a space pod, fly over to it, get in, and take off without being caught in the explosion.

This is also the man who repeatedly gives Goku telepathy when it's convenient. Faulty literary moments make sense with the guy.

Piccolo Daimao · Post by **Piccolo Daimao** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:20 am

This is a rumour I heard...dunno if it's exactly true or not, but anyway...

Everything until the part where SSJ Goku blasts Freeza, who's cut in half, stays the same. Everyone who got killed by Freeza comes back to life, gets transported to Earth, Piccolo's wound gets healed and the Great Elder comes back to life for a short while, and the rest.

But apparently, here's where the plot takes a shift. When Freeza fires a blast at Goku as he's leaving, Goku fires a blast back, which kills Freeza once and for all. Goku tries to fly back to Freeza's spaceship, and just as in the original plot, the spaceship is broken. We see him in his last moments as the whole planet erupts, and Planet Namek explodes, taking Goku with it and killing him. Tenshinhan, Yamcha & Chaozu get brought back to life, but Son Goku & Kuririn remain dead because of the whole "appear-in-space-and-die-anyway", which leaves Son Gohan as the next protector of the Earth.

I'm glad that didn't happen, though.

Post by **Herms** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:25 am

Piccolo Daimao wrote:This is a rumour I heard...dunno if it's exactly true or not, but anyway...

As I've said, all these elaborate rumors are unfounded in anything Toriyama has actually said.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed May 27, 2009 8:13 am

Dying man undergoing a shitload of stress resulting in premature death is implausible to you? O.o

The entire thing screams "Deus ex Machina" and "last minute change of plot". It's easily the weakest point of the entire series. Especially since that stress would technically be a natural death, and thus non reversible.

I figure, at most, they'd have been able to revive everyone but him and that would have put an end to the Namekian dragonballs for good, thus leaving Goku (who died in the explosion of Namek along with Freeza) dead.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that Toriyama confirmed in countless interviews (listed in Daizenshuu Volumes) that he never intended to prolong DragonBall. Intentions were, if I recall correctly, to end it after the Pilaf Saga, after the 21st Budokai, after the 22nd Budokai, after the Piccolo Damaio Saga and after the 23rd Budokai.

The only thing truly confirmed is that he only planned to do up through Pilaf originally and continued, I believe, on a dare, then decided to keep going after the 21st because it had suddenly become super popular. And that later he was getting really tired of doing the story and wanted to stop but kept going due to outside pressure.

There are no indications he intended to end after the 21st, 22nd, or 23rd tournaments, either. The 21st lead right into the DB hunt and RRA, the 22nd straight into Piccolo, and the 23rd left a villain wondering around. Meanwhile the Freeza arc brought Goku's life full circle as well as culminating in Goku becoming the strongest being in the universe, and the Cell Games left the main character of the series dead for good.

MCDaveG · Post by **MCDaveG** » Wed May 27, 2009 8:21 am

I really don't like the Cell Games, so I'm happy that the series is ending after that......

End of series in Freeza saga is somewhat epic...... with Goku screaming with blasting lava and explosions around him.

It's good that it isn't ending here, but I think that idea with Goku in Ginyu's spaceship heading to planet Yadrat isn't developed that well..... As we can clearly see, Goku haven't time to finding some other spaceships, maybe if he already have the ability to make teleport, or the Yadrats teleport him to their planet.....

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Wed May 27, 2009 8:43 am

If you look at the scene before Goku's "death" on Namek, you can clearly see the Ginyu Force's space pods next to Freeza's ship. They were right there. They did land right next to Freeza's ship when they arrived on Namek, remember?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Wed May 27, 2009 12:04 pm

Dayspring wrote:
Rocketman wrote:-The Dragonballs can't bring someone back to life who suffered a natural death! ...but if they were really sad, Shenron can bring them back for the bit of life the sadness took away...which just happens to be about fifteen minutes and one other Dragonball wish.
Dying man undergoing a shitload of stress resulting in premature death is implausible to you? O.o

Stress not counting as natural death is implausible.

The amount of life he lost was utterly insubstantial, too. It's not like, say, Yamcha, who fades into the background but gets to have lots of years left after being brought back. Guru literally only lives long enough for a fix-everything wish.

People get brought back to life all the time via science. Seeing how much super-science got tacked onto Freeza, it's not irrealistic that he'd come back either.

I dispute that there would be anything left to bring back. Goku doesn't sense any ki from Freeza, whatever was left of his body was dropped into two thousand-degree molten rock, and then the planet exploded.

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:If you look at the scene before Goku's "death" on Namek, you can clearly see the Ginyu Force's space pods next to Freeza's ship. They were right there. They did land right next to Freeza's ship when they arrived on Namek, remember?

You can also see the erupting crust enveloping Goku as he screams.