New Unit Power List !!! What do you think about that one?

[rereboy]

No, by admitting that resistance plays a important role, you are admiting that the 10% rule is inadequate, because the battle power is only one factor.

Imagine if there was a device that could read the resistance of the fighters.

Then imagine a fight between a fighter with a battle power of 10 000 and other with a battle power of 9 000.

Now imagine that the first had a resistance level of 50. And the last a resistance of 20 000.

Sure the first would have more power in his punches, but one punch from the weaker one would cause a lot more damage, and like you said, damage reduces battle power.

Would he win then? I don think so.

And besides resistance, there are other factors... Speed. Techiniques. Ability to spend the least amount of energy possible while moving and attacking. Etc.

If you say that the battle power includes all of these factors, then I don`t see how Vegeta defeated Dodoria and Kiwi with hardly any real effort, and Goku wasn`t able to kill Vegeta with the kaioken.

What I`m really saying is that you can not apply hard math rules here. All of what I`m saying is to show you the many problems of doing so.

[Herms]

Do you really think that Daizenshuu has more reliability than a simple filler of the anime?

I don't know. Would exclusive interviews with Mr.Toriyama be considered as filler?

Not to mention in the kanzenban reprint of the manga, Jheese's line where he reads Vegeta's battle power is changed from "20,000" to "30,000", matching the Daizenshuu 7 battle power chart. And the date for the Cell Games was changed from "M 17th" (or whatever it was) to "May 26th", in keeping with the Daizenshuu 7 timeline. I'd say that puts them higher than filler.

[Olivier Hague]

What was said that the Saibaiman, with a battle power of 1,200, had enough power to rival Raditz, not that the two were even. Toriyama even wrote in his memo to the anime staff on the Saibaimen that the Saibaiman had battle power inferior to Radtiz's. Granted, going by your 10% rule 1,500 is too high for 1,200 to rival it, but then your 10% isn't stated anywhere in the manga. And as shown when comparing Kaio-ken x3 Goku (at 24,000) vs. Vegeta (at 18,000) to Vegeta (at 24,000) vs. Dodoria (at more than 18,000), there's no real consistency throughout the story to how much differences in battle power will matter. They're just numbers tossed out by Toriyama with not too much thought given to them.

No, 1500 is too much.

Well, OK, then!

I can justify this 12.000.000 of full power freeza with the manga in my hands, believe me, and I'm not based on that minstraslation

Are you arguing that this is just a coincidence?
...
Seriously?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Really, power level lists are pointless. They do nothing other than create arguments involving 12 million - 15 million mistranslations, people trying to argue back with their personal opinions when someone else might see it differently, and a circus of mathematical fan-wanking. The reason Toriyama stopped power levels after the Freeza Saga was because the characters' power levels just got too retardedly high by that point.

I think that's why there are rarely any power level lists on this forum. There's no point applying maths to things like that. Like how Vegeta is presumably around 18,000 when he appears on Earth, and Goku is over 24,000 with the Kaio-ken x3, yet can't destroy him, while Kiwi is around 18,000 and Vegeta is 24,000 but he destroys Kiwi effortlessly. There are more factors than battle power that you have to take into account in a battle. Like speed, endurance, ability. Like, someone who is the weaker fighter could take more physical punishment than the stronger person, take Goku vs. Vegeta as an example.

[Forgotten Hero]

Goku vs. Ginyu. The list goes on and on. Ginyu, like Vegeta, knows at times the scouter can be useless.

What Ginyu says is that the scouter can fool you because there exists people who can modify their energy levels, but this doesn't mean that the scouter is useless.
In fact, when goku uses kaioh ken x2 and his power reaches 180.000 units, Ginyu admits his absolutely sure defeat and changes his strategy, instead of fighting against goku he steal goku's body in ordrer to increase his power.

Scoutter is useless if the enemy is hidding part of his power, because the scoutter only takes in account the power that is being used at that moment, but when the enemy is full strength the figure that appears on the scoutter is 100% reliable.

You just proved my point.

[freezamite]

Ok, in this post I will try to prove my list of energy.
Instead of going directly at the main question, I will go step by step demonstrating all I say with manga references and deducing it like if I'm reading the manga for the first time.

This means that if during the fight on namek, I can't deduce freeza's 100% power, or I can't know if freeza looses a lot of energy after being hit with the genkidama or not, I won't deduce it from nothing, and I will deduce it when I have the information I need to do it.

Let's start for the begining:
Before the Combat Freezer vs Goku
Things to remark
1. Freezer transforms to diminish and to control his power (chapter 296, page 1)
2. The portable meters of the freezer's army explode before coming to 500.000 units.
3. Freezer says to have in his 4th form (the 1st we see) a power of 530.000 units. (Chapter 286, page 5).
4. In his 3rd form, Freezer gives an approximate but not exact information, estimates his power in about 1.000.000 of units (chapter 296, page 9).
5. Freezer can neither catch nor restrain the ki of anybody, therefore he depends on his scouters for it.

So we can deduce that
1. The real aspect of freezer is the last form that we see.
2. There exist more powerful meters of which we see, because freezer knows exactly that he has 530.000 units of power in his 4th form. If there wasn't any scouter capable of measure a power of 530.000, freeza couldn't know his energy with such accuracy.
3. Don't exists meters of energy capable of coming to the million units, if there where something like that freezer would had given us an exact figure of his power (for example, 1.000.350 units) nevertheless, he says that his power overcomes the million (in the English version he(she) says " as minimum my power has increased to more than 1 million ", in the Castilian one and the Catalan one slightly very similarly) but does not specify when, therefore, it is evident that he could never have measured it.

Combat Freezer vs Goku
Things to remark
1. Freezer says all the time to be the number 1 of the whole universe.
2. Freezer recognizes that his father put dust on him (chapter 310, page 2).
3. Freezer works out badly injured by the genkidama (chapter 317, page 12).
4. Freezer destroys piccolo with a death beam yet being bad wounded (chapter 317, page 9).
5. While freezer is at his 50 % and goku in SSJ, the first one receives damages with what his power became even more reduced.
6. Freezer to 100 % is a bit superior to Goku SSJ in brute force (there is verified by the shock between the kamehame of goku and the assault of freezer, that wins freezer) BUT the body of freezer cannot resist his maximum strength because of his lack of training.

So we can deduce that

1. Of all the beings that freezer knows, he is the most powerful, and this includes his father.
2. After the genkidama freezer loses force, nevertheless, we do not know if he loses a lot of energy or not (though it is presupposed that enough because it itself is considered to be injured or bad injured depending on the version that one reads).
3. We do not know (for the present time) the maximum power that has freezer after being bad wounded (it could be almost all his force, the half of it, a third or even less, it is not possible to deduce in any way at this point), but we know for sure that as minimum it is possible to kill piccolo easily, which it puts as minimum 10 % over him being to 50% of its remaining stength. We cannot also deduce the power that has SSJ goku, logically.

Arrival of Mecha Freezer and Cold to the Earth
Things to remark
1. Freezer says that his power is now Superior than when he fought against the SSJ.
2. Freezer turns out to be accompanied by his father who detaches a more powerful energy (in the English version of the manga it is commented in the page 12 of the chapter 329, in the versions Castilian and Catalan it is commented in this page and again(afresh) in the page 2 of the chapter 330).
3. Neither Freezer nor Cold are capable of measuring energies.
4. Gohan senses that freezer's power is lower than the one that caught in namek (chapter 330, page 9).
5. Cold appears in his 3rd form.
6. The power of mecha freezer is never increased, not still after transforming trunks in SSJ.

So we can deduce that
1. When reading a GOOD book or a GOOD tale, when something is said by a character you must interpret what he says on the basis of what he knows or thinks to understand why is he really saying. Well, we have to do that in two cases there.
On the one hand we have to gohan, that says that the power of mecha freezer is lower than the one he had in namek. He does not say it directly, the scene is the following one (cap. 330, page 9):
Yamcha: Was Freeza's power always this huge?
Gohan: And he still can increase it many more (Castilian version).
This is nothing, , he can increase it a lot more (English version).
Yes, and he can multiply it (Catalan version).

I put all the 3 versions I know because it is a point absolutely important to understand what I say, and I want to demonstrate that it is not any failure of translation, they are 3 versions translated by different persons and all it is said slightly similarly.
Gohan says that thinking about the freezer of namek, nobody knows in the condition in which he has remained really, therefore, it is evident that in the mind of gohan, the freezer that is mounted in the ship is the one that he saw in namek, even transformed. This is why gohan says "he can increase it", because he things that what is coming to earth is the freezer he fought, and not a "special version" of him.

On the other hand we have freezer, that says that his power has increased, and from his point of view it has the whole logic of the world. Freezer swallowed a brutal genkidama before fighting against SSJ goku, and he was badly hurt before starting to fight with SSJ goku. If now he thought he would be recovered, it was logical to think that with all his power and the help of his father it would be enough to destroy the super sayan.

Nevertheless the reality was not this, his power was very low but freezer couldn't know it for different reasons:
- He does not have aptitude to detect energies.
- The power that has is still sufficiently big as not to have to use everything until a real fight, therefore, he hadn't any way of knowing the scope of his power before entering on combat.

2. This conclusion is very simple if we add what already we deduce previously:
- The being more powerful that freezer had ever met, included his father, was himself.
- Gohan senses mecha freezer's energy much lower than the one that sensed from the original freezer in namek.
- His father, who was weaker than his son freezer and he also was transformed to reduce his power, was superior to mecha freezer.

The conclusion can only be one, mecha freezer was very weak compared to the original freezer.

Androids saga: A19 and A20
This stage is also very enlightening, they give devastating information that clarify that what I have deduced till now is correct.
Things to remark

1. A19 and A20 could absorb their enemies energy (I do not believe that it is necessary to mention in what page it is said, it is something known by all of us).
2. After the fight with A19, SSJ vegeta has less energy than the A20 (chapter 345, page 6).
3. Piccolo senses Vegeta's energy to be a little stronger than the energy that goku SSJ had. (Chapter 345, page 6).
4. Piccolo is superior to the A20.

So we can deduce that
1. The energy of the ssj (in general) are not so excessively high as it makes up in the daizenshuu for example. The own piccolo had more energy that vegeta after having fought against the A19, and let's remember that vegeta is still a SSJ.
Remember that A19 absorbs energy from vegeta, lets do some mathematics:
A19's energy + absorved energy from vegeta < energy of vegeta - energy absorved from vegeta.
So, A19's energy + 2*(absorved energy from vegeta) < energy of vegeta.

From here, there is something very easy to deduce, A19 absorved less than 25% of vegeta's total energy.
And now, according in what is said in the manga (remarcable point number 1):
75% vegeta's energy < A20 energy.
And I will say even more:
75% vegeta's energy < A20 energy < Piccolo's energy.

The difference between piccolo and vegeta SSJ in those moments was big, but not enormous.
It is evident that what is said in the daizenshuu (where goku was ending with 150 millions) is a big mistake, because according to what is said on the daizenshuu vegeta would have around 170 million units, and piccolo would had a minimum of 130 - 140 million units, and this is IMPOSSIBLE to happen in only 3 years of training.

We still don't know how much energy have vegeta SSJ, or even freeza at his 100%, but we do know that daizenshuu, when says that gokus ssj had 150 million units, contradicts the manga.

Android saga, A18 vs Vegeta
Things to remark
1.The combat between vegeta and 18 was very leveled (chapter 353, page 12).
2. What marks the difference between the sayan and the android is the unlimited energy of the second one (the same page mentioned previously).
3. In the front page of a chapter where all the androids constructed by guero are sumarized, it is pointed that 17 is a bit stronger than 18 (though there isn't a big diference).

So we can conclude that
1. The power of A18 was really similar to the one of vegeta, maybe a bit superior but undoubtedly not much, because exempting piccolo, the rest thougt vegeta could win the match. And let me remind you that, since already I have demonstrated in my first message, 10% more of energy already is sufficient to win the rival with solvency, so the difference between the power of vegeta SSJ and A18 must be really small.

Saga androids, Cell in Ginger Town
Things to remark
1. Cell absorve the energy of the alive beings to accumulate to its own (he absorvs everybody, not only the strongest people).
2. While he was fleeing of piccolo, crosses with vegeta that goes towards ginger town. He hides and remains surprised of the power that vegeta has (chapter 364, page 9).
3. After a space of time in which cell absorve THOUSANDS of persons, he obtains a power widely superior to that of the androids or piccolo fused with kamisama(chapter 366, page 11).

So we can conclude that
1. The power of cell after absorving all the inhabitants of Ginger Town and an arm of piccolo continues being insufficient to fight against the androids, fused piccolo or vegeta SSJ, and not for few difference precisely (because the difference that separates vegeta of piccolo fused is already considerable).

2. The number of persons that absorve cell is the key, according to the Castilian version, approximately 500.000 persons, according to the Catalan version, between 500.000 and 600.000 persons, according to the English version, dozens of thousands of persons.
In any case, the persons quantity that absorve cell is absolutely insufficient if the power of the androids or the SSJ is of the order of hundreds millions of units.
Why is the information of absorveds by cell so low if according to daizenshuu and similar list the androids are about already 300 millions or thereabouts?

In fact, if an ADULT FARMER THAT WORKS HARD EVERY DAY is 5 units, the average of energy that would have a normal adult person that works in an office shoud be of about 3 or 4 units. Since cell absorves all those that he finds, and obviously, children, women or old men (already let's not old women) are far below of those 3 or 4 units an adult normal man would have it is impossible for him to increase its power lots of million of units only absorving "dozens of thousands of persons" or "500.000 persons" (depending of the version of the manga you read).
To all these absorved persons it is necessary to discount those of Ginger Town because the cell of which we are talking about already had absorved all the inhabitants of the above mentioned city before losing against piccolo or hiding of vegeta.

So being generous with the energy cell could absorv and the people he absorbed, at the very best he absorbed 1 - 1.5 million units (counting 500.000 people at 3 units each one of them).

3. If absorbing 1 - 1.5 million units, cell passes of hiding of vegeta to breaking the neck of piccolo with a weak punch, it is evident that the force of piccolo or vegeta couldn't be of many millions. That is to say, if 1 - 1.5 millions mark the difference in that way, it means that this figure cannot in any case be lower than 50 % of the power of our prominent figures. The explanation is simple, cell knew that he was inferior to vegeta, even when vegeta was just flying, it is not that he was extracting all his power.
Therefore, the difference between cell after absorbing only Ginger town inhabitans and vegeta had to be considerable, more than this 10% of energy that is needed needs to knock down someone without having lots of problems.

On the other hand, when cell presents himself in front of the androids and piccolo, he admits to fight without using all his force and nonetheless the difference between him and the androids is really big, he overcomes that difference of 10% with piccolo and A17 even when he is not fighting at his full strength, so he could easily be at least a 20 or even 30% more powerful than those characters.

Let's put that cell would be 10 % below vegeta when he hid from cell, and after all the absortions he puts on 40% ahead of him (they are approximations, but perfectly valid as we have seen!), this means that this 1.5 million units that he has gained represent 50% of the power of vegeta.
If 1.5 million is aproximately 50% of vegeta's power, then vegeta has a power of around 3 milion units, and this taking in account that he was a SSJ superior to goku when fought to freeza at his 100%.

4. Let's go back to the fight between goku and freeza. I said before that we couldn't know exactly what forces had freezer after the genkidama, that as minimum he had to be stronger than piccolo but that we didn't know if his power were 10 of 12 millions or it really had diminished more than that.
As consequence of I couldn't know the force of goku in namek, or the force of vegetate or piccolo until we reached this point.
Because what we knew is the energy relation that exists between all those characters, but not in numbers, only in percentages.
Nevertheless, with this piece of the puzzle everything fits now.
If vegeta has aprox. 3 millions, and he was already to a goku that had trained for 3 years after what happened in namek, it is evident that the goku of namek being hurt, even if he was angry, had less power than that.

And we also know that this power was enough to win a badly injured freezer at his 100 %. Therefore, the power of freezer 100 % must be very similar to the one that goku SJJ had and freezer to 50 % should have more or less the half of this power (though I put him more of that because before achieving his 100%, freezer is hurt by goku and this makes him to lose even more energy).
From now, and since we already know the approximate force of freezer, or SSJ Vegeta or Piccolo, we can mount the rest of what I think is the definitive unit power list:

Freezer real form 100%: 12.000.000 <---------- Never seen on the manga!!!
Freezer real form 100% (injured after genkidama and the fight with Goku SSJ while he still was at 50%): 2.600.000
Freezer real form 50%: 6.000.000
Freezer real form 50% (injured after genkidama): 1.500.000
Freezer real form 100% (injured and exhausted): 1.500.000
Goku SSJ namek (injured after fighting against freeza but Infuriated): 2.555.500
Goku SSJ namek (Infuriated): 2.850.000 <-------- Never seen on the manga!!!
Mecha freezer: 750.000
Cold (Transformed): 900.000
Trunks SSJ: 2.000.000 - 2.200.000
Goku SSJ: 2.300.000 - 2.400.000

Three years later:

#19: 1.250.000
#20: 2.300.000
Piccolo: 2.550.000
Vegeta SSJ: 2.950.000
#17: 3.200.000
#18: 3.000.000
#16: 3.750.000
picolo + Kami Sama: 3.250.000
Cell in ginger town: 2.500.000
Cell 1st forma (with people absoved): 3.800.000
Cell 2nd form: 5.300.000
Vegeta: 6.200.000
Trunks: 6.000.000

Cell's Tournament:

Perfect Cell (not his full strength): 10.600.000
Goku SSJ Full power: 10.500.000
Gohan SSJ full power: 10.600.000
Perfect Cell (power released): 12.000.000
Gohan SSJ2 (angry): 14.400.000
Super Perfect Cell (after the explosion): 13.700.000

You just proved my point.

No, you were saying that energy doesn't count a lot because vegeta or ginyu knows that relying only on the scoutters is dangerous.
I give you the reason in that, but ONLY WHEN ONE OF THE FIGTHERS IS NOT FIGHTING AT HIS FULL STRENGTH.
When both of them are doing that, then the scoutters have a total realiability.
This list talks about the maximum strength a character being in a concrete condition could have, so what you say about the scoutters can not be aplied on that list.

No, by admitting that resistance plays a important role, you are admiting that the 10% rule is inadequate, because the battle power is only one factor.

Imagine if there was a device that could read the resistance of the fighters.

Then imagine a fight between a fighter with a battle power of 10 000 and other with a battle power of 9 000.

Now imagine that the first had a resistance level of 50. And the last a resistance of 20 000.

Sure the first would have more power in his punches, but one punch from the weaker one would cause a lot more damage, and like you said, damage reduces battle power.

Would he win then? I don think so.

Well, in this extreme case, the fact is that while the difference between those fighters is 10%, then the only winer can be the one with a resistence of 9000.
Why? Because units power not only refers to the brute force of a character, it also reflects its speed for example.
And with a difference of 10%, the weaker fighter can't even touch the strong one as we can see on the DB manga.
So in your case, the only possibility the weaker fighter has to win is that the strong fighter gets tired and that the injuries that those hits had inflicted to him didn't afect him as much as the tiredness of his opponent.
Sumarizing, this is what happens during the match between goku (using kaioh ken x3) and vegeta.

Regards.

[Tenshinhan-san]

I totally agree about the point freezamite made about how tiring yourself out in a fight or taking damage would lower your base power level. I always thought that to be pretty much self explanatory.

I also don't think it's impossible for the Daizenshuu to be a little 'off' in some points, but never flat out wrong. The guides were made to give fans a more in-depth look at the DragonBall Universe and explain many things that might not have been made completely clear if you've only read the manga or watched the anime. So IMO it's illogical to state the Guides provide us with bullshit. Overall they confirm theories and/or simply provide us with 'new' facts.

Also, the point about that with a powerlevel advantage of 10% you must certainly be able to dominate a fight isn't necessarily true imo. A higher battle power certainly is an advantage, but no confirmation of absolute superiority in any way.

Let me give you a little example; When Trunks powered up against Cell, Cell admitted that in terms of power, Trunks had actually surpassed him.
Nevertheless, Cell also said that Trunks still was no match for him, since Cell had superior speed and Trunks admitted defeat when he learned that Cell was right.

This proves two points;

- A higher powerlevel doesn't necessarily mean you should and will dominate a fight
- Being weaker than your opponent doesn't necessarily mean you can not hurt them

There are simply too many factors when it comes to fighting other than 'just' power;

Speed, fighting style, techniques, experience, intelligence, fighting locations etc.

There is no argument that you can make to change my view on the matter.

I also think that the 150 million and 120 million powerlevels are a bit over the top at that point in the series.

[freezamite]

I totally agree about the point freezamite made about how tiring yourself out in a fight or taking damage would lower your base power level. I always thought that to be pretty much self explanatory.

I also don't think it's impossible for the Daizenshuu to be a little 'off' in some points, but never flat out wrong. The guides were made to give fans a more in-depth look at the DragonBall Universe and explain many things that might not have been made completely clear if you've only read the manga or watched the anime. So IMO it's illogical to state the Guides provide us with bullshit. Overall they confirm theories and/or simply provide us with 'new' facts.

The Daizenshuu provides you an interpretation of the manga done by professionals.
It has lots of good things, like the error that the manga had when Geese noticed that vegeta was under 20000 just before the fight against Recoome.
But during the fight against freeza, it falls in the same error that was commited on the anime series. The only numbers that are totally wrong are only the last ones and some little error like the 1500 units they give to raditz, for example.

Also, the point about that with a powerlevel advantage of 10% you must certainly be able to dominate a fight isn't necessarily true imo. A higher battle power certainly is an advantage, but no confirmation of absolute superiority in any way.

Let me give you a little example; When Trunks powered up against Cell, Cell admitted that in terms of power, Trunks had actually surpassed him.
Nevertheless, Cell also said that Trunks still was no match for him, since Cell had superior speed and Trunks admitted defeat when he learned that Cell was right.

This proves two points;

- A higher powerlevel doesn't necessarily mean you should and will dominate a fight
- Being weaker than your opponent doesn't necessarily mean you can not hurt them

There are simply too many factors when it comes to fighting other than 'just' power;

No, there is an error in what you say.
One thing is the power that gohan and the others can sense about an enemy, and another thing is the unit power he has.
The scoutters didn't calculate only the brute force of a character, they also take in account the energy or the speed a character can achieve.

So in the case of trunks, a scoutter with enough capacity to measure his power wouldn't change the figure of unit power because what trunks did was to loos speed for gaining strength.

And of course, the other factors are not taken in account.
I mean, in my list freeza and perfect cell are both 12.000.000 at their 100%, but is obvious that freeza hasn't a single chance to win cell because his body can't resist his full strength (due to a lack of training I presume), he can't regenerate his body like cell and he hasn't as much techniques as cell.

But with a 10% more of energy, there must be a REALLY STRONG EXTERNAL FACTOR to make you lost a match, like the injuries caused by the use of a really strong kaioh ken or some strange ability like the total regeneration capacity that bu had.

[Tenshinhan-san]

No, there is an error in what you say.
One thing is the power that gohan and the others can sense about an enemy, and another thing is the unit power he has.
The scoutters didn't calculate only the brute force of a character, they also take in account the energy or the speed a character can achieve.

So in the case of trunks, a scoutter with enough capacity to measure his power wouldn't change the figure of unit power because what trunks did was to loos speed for gaining strength.

We do not know for a fact what a scouter exactly measures. What we DO know is that it measures at a very superficial and external level which is most likely the maximum level of power "output" of a fighter.

It's impossible (even by DragonBall fantasy world logic standards) to meet the possible speed of an object that isn't even moving, just to name a flaw in your point. It also doesn't measure a fighters fighting style, experience, moveset or any of the other factors that can affect the outcome of a fight.

[freezamite]

No, there is an error in what you say.
One thing is the power that gohan and the others can sense about an enemy, and another thing is the unit power he has.
The scoutters didn't calculate only the brute force of a character, they also take in account the energy or the speed a character can achieve.

So in the case of trunks, a scoutter with enough capacity to measure his power wouldn't change the figure of unit power because what trunks did was to loos speed for gaining strength.

We do not know for a fact what a scouter exactly measures. What we DO know is that it measures at a very superficial and external level which is most likely the maximum level of power "output" of a fighter.

It's impossible (even by DragonBall fantasy world logic standards) to meet the possible speed of an object that isn't even moving, just to name a flaw in your point. It also doesn't measure a fighters fighting style, experience, moveset or any of the other factors that can affect the outcome of a fight.

No, scoutters had this capacity.
Vegeta explains that in namek, I will look where he says that, but I remember he explained that the energy that scoutters can measure take in account also the speed of the measured character.

But even considering what you said, remember that trunks made a big mistake and used an invalid transformation.
All the characters that appears on my list hadn't got that problem, so your case is an exception that doesn't break that general rule, is like the kaioh ken x3 case.

This units represent the full strength of a balanced character, and when there is an special case (like an injured character or some kind of technique that multiplies your energy, I point it).

[Bussani]

Since scouters only go off when your ki raises, I assume what they measure is ki. Like a radiation detector for ki. It gives you a rough estimation of their strength, but as Toriyama said in the SEGs, while having a big ki is important, there's more to that than winning. It's how you use the ki, too.

For example, what if you're more skilled at putting a huge amount of your ki into defense than your opponent's technique (such as Kamehameha) is at putting ki into an attack? Even if he's weaker in terms of overall power, the defender might be okay.

Different techniques have different strengths. Kikoho is stronger than a regular Kamehameha, for instance. So relying on a single static number for everything is a bad idea. Even if you can sense ki without a scouter you can be caught off guard if you're not careful. For example, Goku would have killed both Cell and Ultimate Buu if not for their regeneration; warp Kamehameha in the face and Kienzan from behind, respectively.

Edit:

No, scoutters had this capacity.
Vegeta explains that in namek, I will look where he says that, but I remember he explained that the energy that scoutters can measure take in account also the speed of the measured character.

Are you talking about what he said to Kiwi, or something else? All he said was, "If my power increases, doesn't my speed increase along with it?" That doesn't necessarily mean that scouters can guess your speed, only that your speed goes up as your ki increases, which makes sense.

Unless you're thinking of something else.

[freezamite]

Since scouters only go off when your ki raises, I assume what they measure is ki. Like a radiation detector for ki. It gives you a rough estimation of their strength, but as Toriyama said in the SEGs, while having a big ki is important, there's more to that than winning. It's how you use the ki, too.

For example, what if you're more skilled at putting a huge amount of your ki into defense than your opponent's technique (such as Kamehameha) is at putting ki into an attack? Even if he's weaker in terms of overall power, the defender might be okay.

Different techniques have different strengths. Kikoho is stronger than a regular Kamehameha, for instance. So relying on a single static number for everything is a bad idea. Even if you can sense ki without a scouter you can be caught off guard if you're not careful. For example, Goku would have killed both Cell and Ultimate Buu if not for their regeneration; warp Kamehameha in the face and Kienzan from behind, respectively.

Oks, but my list is about units, not about the best fighter or the strongest character.
I explained before the case of freeza and cell, wich I think they have the same power, but the second owns the first without many problems.

When I said that a difference of 10% in your ki power is enough to destroy your enemy easily I was taking on account only the ki level.
So the complete meaning of what I said is "if two EXACT OR SIMILAR CHARACTERS, WITH EXACT CONDITIONS OR VERY SIMILAR CONDITIONS have a difference on their power of about 10%, the stronger one will win the match easily".

This is why I put freeza at 12 million and perfect cell at 12.000 too, or why I put vegeta SSJ and A18 at a very similar level.
If we could measure things like "infinite energy" or "regeneration power", then A18 or Cell would be much better than they currently are.

This list is only to have an aproximate idea of the ki level of the characters, and then we all know that there are other differences between them that could put one of them over the rest.
But this is another discusion, I'm not talking about that.

Regards.

[rereboy]

No, there is an error in what you say.
One thing is the power that gohan and the others can sense about an enemy, and another thing is the unit power he has.
The scoutters didn't calculate only the brute force of a character, they also take in account the energy or the speed a character can achieve.

So in the case of trunks, a scoutter with enough capacity to measure his power wouldn't change the figure of unit power because what trunks did was to loos speed for gaining strength.

We do not know for a fact what a scouter exactly measures. What we DO know is that it measures at a very superficial and external level which is most likely the maximum level of power "output" of a fighter.

It's impossible (even by DragonBall fantasy world logic standards) to meet the possible speed of an object that isn't even moving, just to name a flaw in your point. It also doesn't measure a fighters fighting style, experience, moveset or any of the other factors that can affect the outcome of a fight.

No, scoutters had this capacity.
Vegeta explains that in namek, I will look where he says that, but I remember he explained that the energy that scoutters can measure take in account also the speed of the measured character.

But even considering what you said, remember that trunks made a big mistake and used an invalid transformation.
All the characters that appears on my list hadn't got that problem, so your case is an exception that doesn't break that general rule, is like the kaioh ken x3 case.

This units represent the full strength of a balanced character, and when there is an special case (like an injured character or some kind of technique that multiplies your energy, I point it).

The only time that Vegeta refers to speed in Namek is when he talks with kiwi and he says in the english version: "If my power increases... Doesn`t my speed increase along with it?"

We can not conclude by that alone that scouters include speed in their readings. Maybe Vegeta was only trying to say that if he is stronger, it is only natural to him to be faster as well.

That doesn`t mean that the scouter was reading his speed. It could just be reading his battle power.

It is natural for a fighter to gain more speed if he increases his battle power. But that doesn`t mean that two fighters with a similar power level have similar speeds.

I`ll give you a very easy example.

Consider Butta from the Ginyu Force. He claims he is the fastest in the universe. Of course he isn`t faster than Freeza and maybe he isn`t faster than Ginyu.

But its stated that Reacoom, Jheese and Butta have similar battle power. And he is the fastest of the three. Probably way faster, since he is known to be that fast.

Why is that if battle power takes speed into account? They should have similar or approximate speed if their battle power is similar or not that far apart.

Why then state that Butta is that fast if battle power takes that into account? Why not just say that he has a battle power of XXXXX?

The only logical reason I can think of, is that he was especially fast. Faster than he should be. It was his great quality. And to that make sense then battle power can`t read speed. Otherwise it wouldn`t make a lot of sense. He would just state his battle power.

And so, like I said, battle power doesn`t consider a lot of factors, including speed, which are important to a fight.

As such your theory of the 10% is flawed, because the battle powers levels are flawed.

[Bussani]

When I said that a difference of 10% in your ki power is enough to destroy your enemy easily I was taking on account only the ki level.
So the complete meaning of what I said is "if two EXACT OR SIMILAR CHARACTERS, WITH EXACT CONDITIONS OR VERY SIMILAR CONDITIONS have a difference on their power of about 10%, the stronger one will win the match easily".

Ah, I see. That sounds like a reasonable theory then.

I'm not sure about full power, uninjured Freeza being more powerful than Perfect Cell though. That seems like a stretch. It would mean that Freeza lost an enormous amount of power from being hit by the Genki Dama, meaning his 100% we saw wasn't his full power even though he seemed to think it was (yes, he can't sense ki, but I think he'd notice that something was wrong when he wasn't as strong or fast as he should be (same as Perfect Cell?)), and that even though he said he was stronger when he arrived on Earth he was actually far weaker than he should be.

It's an interesting theory, but I really doubt Mr Toriyama put that much thought into it.

[freezamite]

We do not know for a fact what a scouter exactly measures. What we DO know is that it measures at a very superficial and external level which is most likely the maximum level of power "output" of a fighter.

It's impossible (even by DragonBall fantasy world logic standards) to meet the possible speed of an object that isn't even moving, just to name a flaw in your point. It also doesn't measure a fighters fighting style, experience, moveset or any of the other factors that can affect the outcome of a fight.

No, scoutters had this capacity.
Vegeta explains that in namek, I will look where he says that, but I remember he explained that the energy that scoutters can measure take in account also the speed of the measured character.

But even considering what you said, remember that trunks made a big mistake and used an invalid transformation.
All the characters that appears on my list hadn't got that problem, so your case is an exception that doesn't break that general rule, is like the kaioh ken x3 case.

This units represent the full strength of a balanced character, and when there is an special case (like an injured character or some kind of technique that multiplies your energy, I point it).

The only time that Vegeta refers to speed in Namek is when he talks with kiwi and he says in the english version: "If my power increases... Doesn`t my speed increase along with it?"

We can not conclude by that alone that scouters include speed in their readings. Maybe Vegeta was only trying to say that if he is stronger, it is only natural to him to be faster as well.

That doesn`t mean that the scouter was reading his speed. It could just be reading his battle power.

It is natural for a fighter to gain more speed if he increases his battle power. But that doesn`t mean that two fighters with a similar power level have similar speeds.

I`ll give you a very easy example.

Consider Butta from the Ginyu Force. He claims he is the fastest in the universe. Of course he isn`t faster than Freeza and maybe he isn`t faster than Ginyu.

But its stated that Reacoom, Jheese and Butta have similar battle power. And he is the fastest of the three. Probably way faster, since he is known to be that fast.

Why is that if battle power takes speed into account? They should have similar or approximate speed if their battle power is similar or not that far apart.

Why then state that Butta is that fast if battle power takes that into account? Why not just say that he has a battle power of XXXXX?

The only logical reason I can think of, is that he was especially fast. Faster than he should be. It was his great quality. And to that make sense then battle power can`t read speed. Otherwise it wouldn`t make a lot of sense. He would just state his battle power.

And so, like I said, battle power doesn`t consider a lot of factors, including speed, which are important to a fight.

Yes, I thought about what you said and I think you have reason about that.
But in the DB manga, when a characteristic isn't pointed to be exceptionally good or bad, it means that the character has a normal development comparied to its ki level.

In the case of ALL the characters that appear on my list, with a difference of 10% more energy they could win easily except for goku and its time limitation when he is using kaioh ken.
What I was looking for is what you have said about vegeta, and this is what I need.
In a normal character, when his ki increases, his strength and velocity increases as well.

[rereboy]

Androids saga: A19 and A20
This stage is also very enlightening, they give devastating information that clarify that what I have deduced till now is correct.
Things to remark

1. A19 and A20 could absorb their enemies energy (I do not believe that it is necessary to mention in what page it is said, it is something known by all of us).
2. After the fight with A19, SSJ vegeta has less energy than the A20 (chapter 345, page 6).
3. Piccolo senses Vegeta's energy to be a little stronger than the energy that goku SSJ had. (Chapter 345, page 6).
4. Piccolo is superior to the A20.

So we can deduce that
1. The energy of the ssj (in general) are not so excessively high as it makes up in the daizenshuu for example. The own piccolo had more energy that vegeta after having fought against the A19, and let's remember that vegeta is still a SSJ.
Remember that A19 absorbs energy from vegeta, lets do some mathematics:
A19's energy + absorved energy from vegeta < energy of vegeta - energy absorved from vegeta.
So, A19's energy + 2*(absorved energy from vegeta) < energy of vegeta.

From here, there is something very easy to deduce, A19 absorved less than 25% of vegeta's total energy.
And now, according in what is said in the manga (remarcable point number 1):
75% vegeta's energy < A20 energy.
And I will say even more:
75% vegeta's energy < A20 energy < Piccolo's energy.

The difference between piccolo and vegeta SSJ in those moments was big, but not enormous.
It is evident that what is said in the daizenshuu (where goku was ending with 150 millions) is a big mistake, because according to what is said on the daizenshuu vegeta would have around 170 million units, and piccolo would had a minimum of 130 - 140 million units, and this is IMPOSSIBLE to happen in only 3 years of training.

We still don't know how much energy have vegeta SSJ, or even freeza at his 100%, but we do know that daizenshuu, when says that gokus ssj had 150 million units, contradicts the manga.

As for the mecha freeza part, I see no flaws in your logic.

As for the androids...

First, you have no way to know how much stronger Piccolo became during those 3 years.

Second, you are assuming that all of the energy stolen by the androids simply adds to their own. You have no way to know if that process is 100% effective, if some of the energy stolen isn`t lost in the process, or exactily how much stonger they become with that energy or what exactily happens to the energy within the android body.

You are just assuming that all of the energy stolen simply adds to the one that existed.

There isnt nothing to suggest that those androids can´t only just be able to use 75% of the energy they steal, while 25% is lost in the process.

There is simply no way to know. You are just assuming a math rule to something we can`t know.

However, I`ll admit that since there is no way to know, your theory is a nice theory regarding this part.

[Tenshinhan-san]

So the complete meaning of what I said is "if two EXACT OR SIMILAR CHARACTERS, WITH EXACT CONDITIONS OR VERY SIMILAR CONDITIONS have a difference on their power of about 10%, the stronger one will win the match easily".

I pretty much agree with that, under similar conditions, the fighter with even the slightest advantage can use that advantage to win the fight.

I don't agree with about Frieza and Cell having roughly the same powerlevel. In the DragonBall Universe, Every major villain of a saga is a lot stronger than the last one. I thought that was pretty obvious.

Trunks EASILY destroyed Mecha Frieza. Now, Mecha Frieza was stated to be stronger in every way than before. Also, when he arrived on earth, he wasn't worn out from any fighting before, so no theory about having less power due to being hit by a Genki Dama etc.

Now Trunks made Frieza look like a weakling, while Trunks couldn't even handle the androids in his own future, let alone the stronger ones from the timeline he travelled to. So it's pretty safe to say that androids 16, 17 and 18 are all waaaay stronger then Frieza. Even the strongest of the three, android 16, was roughly at the same level as Cell's first form. Cell got incomparably stronger after his first transformation, let alone his 2nd transformation. All in all, I can not see how Frieza could be anywhere near as strong as even the androids, let alone any form of Cell.

I can only see Frieza taking out androids 19 and 20 and it pretty much stops there IMO...

[rereboy]

Saga androids, Cell in Ginger Town
Things to remark
1. Cell absorve the energy of the alive beings to accumulate to its own (he absorvs everybody, not only the strongest people).
2. While he was fleeing of piccolo, crosses with vegeta that goes towards ginger town. He hides and remains surprised of the power that vegeta has (chapter 364, page 9).
3. After a space of time in which cell absorve THOUSANDS of persons, he obtains a power widely superior to that of the androids or piccolo fused with kamisama(chapter 366, page 11).

So we can conclude that
1. The power of cell after absorving all the inhabitants of Ginger Town and an arm of piccolo continues being insufficient to fight against the androids, fused piccolo or vegeta SSJ, and not for few difference precisely (because the difference that separates vegeta of piccolo fused is already considerable).

2. The number of persons that absorve cell is the key, according to the Castilian version, approximately 500.000 persons, according to the Catalan version, between 500.000 and 600.000 persons, according to the English version, dozens of thousands of persons.
In any case, the persons quantity that absorve cell is absolutely insufficient if the power of the androids or the SSJ is of the order of hundreds millions of units.
Why is the information of absorveds by cell so low if according to daizenshuu and similar list the androids are about already 300 millions or thereabouts?

In fact, if an ADULT FARMER THAT WORKS HARD EVERY DAY is 5 units, the average of energy that would have a normal adult person that works in an office shoud be of about 3 or 4 units. Since cell absorves all those that he finds, and obviously, children, women or old men (already let's not old women) are far below of those 3 or 4 units an adult normal man would have it is impossible for him to increase its power lots of million of units only absorving "dozens of thousands of persons" or "500.000 persons" (depending of the version of the manga you read).
To all these absorved persons it is necessary to discount those of Ginger Town because the cell of which we are talking about already had absorved all the inhabitants of the above mentioned city before losing against piccolo or hiding of vegeta.

So being generous with the energy cell could absorv and the people he absorbed, at the very best he absorbed 1 - 1.5 million units (counting 500.000 people at 3 units each one of them).

Again, you are just adding the likely battle powers of the people that Cell absorbed to Cell`s original power.

We have no way to know if that is what happens.

What exactily happens after Cell absorbs a normal person? I always thought he used them as food to assure and speed his cellular growth. Like a leash.
If that is the case, then it is unknown how much stronger Cell gets after absorbing a normal person. He could get a much greater power increase than the actual battle power of that person.

When Cell became perfect, his tail almost dissapered. Why if all he did was add the power of the person absorbed to his own? If that was the case why not keep his tail in his perfect form so that he could continue to absorb and become more powerfull?

One of the answers is that he only absorbed people to sustain his cellular growth and speed it. A need he no longer had when he became perfect. He only absorbed the androids because they were the key to his perfect form.

CONCLUSION

Anyway, I like your theory. Its a nice one. It doesn`t deal with numbers that high (which seem too much at times) and it has logic and it is consistent.

However, it has flaws and much is based upon assumptions.

And remember that your 10% rule is not hard science. You can say that when there is a difference of 10% or more in power, its likely that one of the fighters will dominate the fight. Nothing more.

[Wojak]

Freeza hadn't dropped that much in battle power until when he reached his 100% powerlevel, and neither had Goku.
What they had lost was merely stamina.

You won't neccesarily get much weaker by punches and bleeding. I know I have and it hasn't weakened me that much.
And I also know that strong people endure beating a lot easier. They feel the pain but the damage is less.

Now, to the next point. Neither of them had broken bones, nor huge bleedings. The damage wasn't concentrated to a fixed point so that a certain organ would be damaged, but absorbed more or less equally.

Before the transformation:

Goku: Exhausted, he has used up all his energy with the Kaio-ken. We have seen him taking less beating than that and still keeping his strength.

Freeza: Damaged from the Genki-dama but looks like being in good shape. His injuries are not that internal (otherwise he wouldn't be able to walk, would he?).

Right after the transformation:

Goku: His stamina is refilled, mostly from the rage and adrenaline. He has also got some rest. He looks ridiculously fresh.

Freeza: He got a lot of hard beating, and had a lot lower defense. He charges up to 100% of his power.

The end battle:

Goku: Having less damage and more power, he has the upper hand.

Freeza: All the beating from SSJ Goku whilst he himself was only at his 50% power start to show. His lower battle power also contributes to this. His Ki starts to burn out and Goku decides to leave the fight.
This is the first time in the fight that Goku mentions that Freeza's ki has gotten weaker. The first time ever.

As Goku clearly felt Freeza's 50% power (which at that time wasn't diminished at all), he knew how much Freeza's 100% power should be, and when Freeza said that he was fully powered, the only thing Goku said was "finally". He didn't say that Freeza was weaker, but acted like "this was my estimation". He wasn't shocked at all.

And of course they could have had the power of 120.000.000 and 150.000.000.
This was the most epic fight ever in Dragonball.
Goku had defeated Earth's evil, the evil from space, and now, the greatest evil in the Universe, who was unrivalled for years, who made people all over the Universe shiver in fear, that even the Kaioshin knew of.
Goku was the only one that was capable to take care of him, and noone could ever train himself to rival Freeza, so he evolved to the Legendary Super Saiya-jin.

What you say isn't the truth and there is nothing obvious about it, and certainly it's not something we don't notice.
It's merely your view of the matter and I can't say that it sounds likely to me no matter you describe it.

[Bussani]

Trunks EASILY destroyed Mecha Freeza. Now, Mecha Freeza was stated to be stronger in every way than before. Also, when he arrived on earth, he wasn't worn out from any fighting before, so no theory about having less power due to being hit by a Genki Dama etc.

I think his theory is that we never saw Freeza at his true full power, because the Genki Dama weakened him before he powered up to it. So the 100% we saw wasn't his full strength. As for Mecha Freeza, he seems to be assuming that he actually wasn't stronger at all, but had lost all that strength from being cut up and put back together as a cyborg.

Personally, I think the simpler explanations are more likely. I don't see any reason to assume that Freeza was originally as powerful as Cell.