Kaio-Ken Question

otakutrevan · Post by **otakutrevan** » Sat May 30, 2009 4:28 pm

Son Goku-[Surpressed]-5000
Son Goku-[Max)]-8000
Son Goku [Kaioken x2] – 16,000
Son Goku [Kaioken x3] – 24,000

Vegeta- (Max) 18,000

My question is that does the Kaio-Ken give the user a burst of magical power that the user doesnt have at the expense of becoming extremely fatigued or ever killed. Clearly without the Kaio-Ken Goku would have stood no chance at all against the Prince of all Saiyans, and maybe even killed by Freeza or GINYU withouth, lol. Discuess

Bardock No Sensei · Post by **Bardock No Sensei** » Sat May 30, 2009 4:33 pm

True were you got this info the daizenshuu perhaps?

otakutrevan · Post by **otakutrevan** » Sat May 30, 2009 4:36 pm

Bardock No Sensei wrote:True were you got this info the daizenshuu perhaps?

Could you reword what that, lol

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Sat May 30, 2009 5:23 pm

otakutrevan wrote:Son Goku-[Surpressed]-5000
Son Goku-[Max)]-8000
Son Goku [Kaioken x2] – 16,000
Son Goku [Kaioken x3] – 24,000

Vegeta- (Max) 18,000

My question is that does the Kaio-Ken give the user a burst of magical power that the user doesnt have at the expense of becoming extremely fatigued or ever killed. Clearly without the Kaio-Ken Goku would have stood no chance at all against the Prince of all Saiyans, and maybe even killed by Freeza or GINYU withouth, lol. Discuess

Actually kaioken is just a technique that allows you to concentrate and multiply your ki beyond your normal limits (much like the SSJ forms). In order to do that you must have absolute control of your body.

One only gets hurt when one tries to use the kaioken beyond their current capabilites.

Kaioken x2 didn`t hurt Goku at all. Kaioken x3 did however.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat May 30, 2009 7:05 pm

The daizenshuu says it amplifies your ki, etc, so yeah, it's "magic" in that it does indeed come from somewhere other than within. The damage comes from the gap between your current BP and the BP obtained from the Kaioken, as too much added energy literally makes you explode. The daizenshuu itself doesn't imply whether or not there's a limit, but Kaio says it's x10. So instead of the stronger you get, the more kaiokens you can use, it merely becomes up to x10 causing less and less damage; x11 and up is still dangerous.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat May 30, 2009 8:03 pm

It's possible that the extra energy for Kaioken comes from your ki reserves, and it's just a process of bringing it all out in one burst rather than a bit at a time. Like, imagine if your ki reserves were a tank of water, and your body is a tap that the water is flowing out through. Kaioken would somehow force more water through the tap than is usually possible, damaging the tap in the process if you take it too far.

That might not be a good analogy. So long as you can control the ki perfectly, you'll be okay, theoretically.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat May 30, 2009 8:50 pm

Bussani wrote:It's possible that the extra energy for Kaioken comes from your ki reserves, and it's just a process of bringing it all out in one burst rather than a bit at a time. Like, imagine if your ki reserves were a tank of water, and your body is a tap that the water is flowing out through. Kaioken would somehow force more water through the tap than is usually possible, damaging the tap in the process if you take it too far.

That might not be a good analogy. So long as you can control the ki perfectly, you'll be okay, theoretically.

But ki reserves are among the traits that get doubled (according to the daizenshuu).

Post by **Herms** » Sat May 30, 2009 8:54 pm

Dayspring wrote: But ki reserves are among the traits that get doubled (according to the daizenshuu).

When do the daizenshuu ever mention ki reserves? What are ki reserves, for that matter?

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat May 30, 2009 9:02 pm

Herms wrote:What are ki reserves, for that matter?

I think it's just a fan-term/idea. It's like the overall pool a ki a person is assumed to have, rather than the amount they're putting out at a time. Their ki stamina, I guess.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat May 30, 2009 9:50 pm

It says it also amplifies the energy within the body (along with speed, etc) in the kaioken technique description. I figured that's what Bussani meant by "ki reserves."

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat May 30, 2009 10:00 pm

Ah, we were probably thinking of different things then. My comment was just a fan theory, that Kaioken is like bringing out more of your overall ki at once rather than a smaller amount at a time. Like burning your whole (or a lot of, anyway) fuel tank in one go.

Haseowolf · Post by **Haseowolf** » Sat May 30, 2009 10:47 pm

This seems to be a good place to set my question about Kaio=ken:

Kaio-ken x4 = BPx4
Kaio-ken x3 = BPx3
Kaio-ken x2 = BPx2

but from everywhere that I've read...

Kaio-ken = BPx2

What's the difference between a regular Kaio-ken and a Kaio-ken x2? Its only explained that a regular doubles your power, yet Goku later specifically uses a double.

Just severely confused. Thanks.

If I didn't convey that correctly, feel free to ask for more.

Post by **Herms** » Sat May 30, 2009 11:01 pm

Haseowolf wrote:but from everywhere that I've read...

Kaio-ken = BPx2

What's the difference between a regular Kaio-ken and a Kaio-ken x2? Its only explained that a regular doubles your power, yet Goku later specifically uses a double.

It seems that regular Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 are one and the same. The narrator says that the regular Kaio-ken doubles Goku's battle power, and it's said during the battle with Freeza that the Kaio-ken x10 makes Goku ten times stronger, so there doesn't seem to be any room for there to be a difference between regular and x2. Goku certainly seems to treat them as different things during the fight with Vegeta, but I guess this is just one of Toriyama's slip-ups.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat May 30, 2009 11:02 pm

Haseowolf wrote:This seems to be a good place to set my question about Kaio=ken:

Kaio-ken x4 = BPx4
Kaio-ken x3 = BPx3
Kaio-ken x2 = BPx2

but from everywhere that I've read...

Kaio-ken = BPx2

What's the difference between a regular Kaio-ken and a Kaio-ken x2? Its only explained that a regular doubles your power, yet Goku later specifically uses a double.

Just severely confused. Thanks.

If I didn't convey that correctly, feel free to ask for more.

This does seem to be an inconsistency. The narrator says that even after doubling his strength with Kaioken (a normal Kaioken) Goku still wasn't a match for Vegeta. He then tries to use Kaioken x2, which also doesn't work, and says, "I can't keep up, even using twice the Kaioken."

This almost makes it sound like x2 is a 4 times multiplication. But later on it seems that x10 multiplies your power by 10, so it makes more sense that x2 is the same as the basic Kaioken.. Maybe Toriyama hadn't decided how to use the numbers yet.

Saiyan · Post by **Saiyan** » Sat May 30, 2009 11:34 pm

I've always felt that Kaioken is like, 1.5x your strength, while Kaioken x2 is well..2x your strength.

But I think about that now and it just sort of leaves holes in that. Because that means that Kaioken x2 is actually 3x your strength, and Kaioken x10 is 15x your strength and etc etc.

Gahh whatever

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sun May 31, 2009 12:34 am

Saiyan wrote:I've always felt that Kaioken is like, 1.5x your strength, while Kaioken x2 is well..2x your strength.

But I think about that now and it just sort of leaves holes in that. Because that means that Kaioken x2 is actually 3x your strength, and Kaioken x10 is 15x your strength and etc etc.

Gahh whatever

That is not too crazy since Super Saiyan 3 is 4 times Super Saiyan 2 if I remember correctly.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Sun May 31, 2009 10:04 pm

A theory by SRP76 went like:

Goku: 100
Goku (Kaio-ken): 100 + (100 x 1) = 200
Goku (Kaio-ken x2): 100 + (100 x 2) = 300
Etc.

So the Kaio-ken is literally doubled, not the person's ki. It kinda makes sense, because there really wouldn't be a reason for Goku to say things like "Kaio-ken x2" and "not even with twice the Kaio-ken" if all he was using was the regular Kaio-ken.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sun May 31, 2009 10:09 pm

Tyro wrote:A theory by SRP76 went like:

Goku: 100
Goku (Kaio-ken): 100 + (100 x 1) = 200
Goku (Kaio-ken x2): 100 + (100 x 2) = 300
Etc.

So the Kaio-ken is literally doubled, not the person's ki. It kinda makes sense, because there really wouldn't be a reason for Goku to say things like "Kaio-ken x2" and "not even with twice the Kaio-ken" if all he was using was the regular Kaio-ken.

I guess that's possible. But doesn't Tenshinhan's comment about Kaioken x10 later on contradict that? It could be argued that Tenshinhan doesn't know what he's talking about but...

Edit: I guess if x10 put him at 1100, that's close enough to becoming x10 stronger, so yeah..

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sun May 31, 2009 10:56 pm

I like the idea of drawing from one's hidden ki reserves for Kaio-Ken. It's power that's available, but still needs drawing out through training and such. The same type of hidden reserves that Saichoro drew out of Kuririn and Gohan. Kaio-Ken would be one particular method of instantly and temporarily tapping into this power, but it does so in a forceful way, which if overused, would end up doing the user more harm than good.

It might also explain why as time went on, Goku was able to use higher-level Kaio-Kens; his Super Saiyan power was slowly but steadily building and compiling itself. He wasn't able to fully use it until he actually made the transformation, but in a pinch he could bring out a large percentage of it through the Kaio-Ken x10 and x20.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:48 am

Tyro wrote:So the Kaio-ken is literally doubled, not the person's ki.

But that implies the exact opposite of what Kaioken does.

Maybe Kaioken x2 can only act as a bridge to kaioken x3, since they're supposed to be used incrementally. In other words, if he jumped straight from Kaioken to Kaioken x3, the damage would be even greater. So from this we get:
Kaioken = Yadda x2
Kaioken x2 = Yadda still x2, but now safer to use kaioken x3
Kaioken x3 = Yadda x3
Kaioken x4 = Yadda x4
etc.

It could also be that a rest period is needed after using Kaiokens, so Kaioken x2 would be a means of re-using Kaioken more frequently.

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