Dub Gokou: A Different Character?

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:49 pm

Well, it WAS the end of the series, and Gokû likely knew Freeza wasn't going to have any of Son's lip...

Just like how Vegeta made an stupid move for the sake of the plot.

Seriously, it's nothing to have a bitter fit with internet geeks over.

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:26 pm

One big difference between Vegeta and Goku in these scenes was their reason for doing what they did. Goku spared Freeza because he wanted him to live with the humiliation rather than get a quick death right there and then, while Vegeta let Cell go get more powerful, something everyone were trying their best to prevent at that point, so he could get a better fight. This resulted in Cell getting more powerful than Vegeta expected, and all shit broke loose.
Sure, Freeza technically ended up powering up a bit before returning for revenge, but it was hardly a noticable difference as far as Goku was concerned. Vegeta gambled that he'd be able to handle Cell even if Cell got to that super-powerful level everyone were scared shitless of, Goku just let someone he was much stronger than live after he had defeated him.

Metalwario64 · Post by **Metalwario64** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:36 pm

Adamant wrote:One big difference between Vegeta and Goku in these scenes was their reason for doing what they did. Goku spared Freeza because he wanted him to live with the humiliation rather than get a quick death right there and then, while Vegeta let Cell go get more powerful, something everyone were trying their best to prevent at that point, so he could get a better fight. This resulted in Cell getting more powerful than Vegeta expected, and all shit broke loose.
Sure, Freeza technically ended up powering up a bit before returning for revenge, but it was hardly a noticable difference as far as Goku was concerned. Vegeta gambled that he'd be able to handle Cell even if Cell got to that super-powerful level everyone were scared shitless of, Goku just let someone he was much stronger than live after he had defeated him.

Goku let Frieza reach his full power so that he could humiliate him. Vegeta did it because he wanted to look like a bad-ass.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:41 pm

Adamant wrote:Goku just let the guy who was the galactic-scale version of Hitler (including billions upon billions of innocent deaths) live after he had defeated him.

Hi there.

Metalwario64 wrote:Goku let Frieza reach his full power so that he could humiliate him. Vegeta did it because he wanted to look like a bad-ass.

Six of one, half-a-dozen of the other.

B wrote:I think your twisting his words, unless I'm not remembering something right. He never "let" Freeza go full power

King Kai tells him to kill Freeza while he's powering up. Goku refuses and waits around, explicitly telling Freeza "I'm waiting for you to reach your full power".

B · Post by B » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:41 pm

I think your twisting his words, unless I'm not remembering something right. He never "let" Freeza go full power, justl iek Freeza didn't "let" Goku become a Super Saiyan, the fight eventually escalated to where they had to get more powerful in order to survive.

And, I think Adamant hit it on the head. Goku's move was just as stupid as Vegeta's, but at least his motives behind said decision weren't selfish. If Freeza feels humiliation and pain, he might change and decide to stop killing. Of couse, that's Goku's fantasy world, where everyone has some good in them. Vegeta let Cell go because he wanted to test his power; he couldn't have given a rat's ass about the well-being of his enemy or the potential chaos that could have(and /did/) ensued.

EDIT: Adding on to the stupidity, Vegeta should have known better. It was established early on Goku is simple-minded.

Metalwario64 · Post by **Metalwario64** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:03 pm

B wrote:I think your twisting his words, unless I'm not remembering something right. He never "let" Freeza go full power, justl iek Freeza didn't "let" Goku become a Super Saiyan, the fight eventually escalated to where they had to get more powerful in order to survive.

And, I think Adamant hit it on the head. Goku's move was just as stupid as Vegeta's, but at least his motives behind said decision weren't selfish. If Freeza feels humiliation and pain, he might change and decide to stop killing. Of couse, that's Goku's fantasy world, where everyone has some good in them. Vegeta let Cell go because he wanted to test his power; he couldn't have given a rat's ass about the well-being of his enemy or the potential chaos that could have(and /did/) ensued.

EDIT: Adding on to the stupidity, Vegeta should have known better. It was established early on Goku is simple-minded.

Goku did let him reach full power though. He told King Kai that he wanted it so that he could humiliate him and prove that he really is weaker than a Saiyan. There really is no other way to take that.

Rocketman wrote:
Metalwario64 wrote:Goku let Frieza reach his full power so that he could humiliate him. Vegeta did it because he wanted to look like a bad-ass.
Six of one, half-a-dozen of the other.

Uh... lolwut?

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:10 pm

B wrote:I think your twisting his words, unless I'm not remembering something right. He never "let" Freeza go full power, justl iek Freeza didn't "let" Goku become a Super Saiyan, the fight eventually escalated to where they had to get more powerful in order to survive.

Yeah he did. Freeza got some breathing space to power up, but there was a point where Goku could have intervened but instead chose to let Freeza fight at his best.

See now, is it too much to hold them both to task. The anti-Goku's don't seem to get that they BOTH do stupid crap. I'm only saying that cuz the "hey noone says anything about Goku" posts came a page after I called Goku out for his naive non-goal-oriented methods and general lack of heroics. And, keeping it on topic, that's one issue I have with the dubs attempts to make a traditional hero out of Goku. He isn't. When he goes and pulls random moments of Gokuness (like giving Cell a senzu or not going all out on Fat Buu) it shows this. It isn't too hard to swallow that a guy who's motive was being pissed off might calm down and make a stupid choice. But a guy who calls himself the light in the darkness letting Freeza walk was just off.

I guess Vegeta just catches more flak because of his reasoning and the ramifications. Others above went into this in detail already.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:36 pm

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:14 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote: First of all, I don’t personally find Goku to be all THAT likeable of a character. He’s likeable only up to a point. I 100% agree with Rocketman that he can be an amoral douchebag on numerous occasions.

WTF, I said that on page 2 and all I got for it was a bunch of "Goku's the nicest guy!" responses.

Interesting observation- a good deal of your Goku analysis could apply to SF's Gouki...

B · Post by B » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:00 am

First Kunzait essay I didn't skip over. I don't think I will ever again.

Dr. Casey · Post by **Dr. Casey** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:39 am

That's a good B.

Now go back and read his other 1,130 posts.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:09 am

Can I have the Cliff-Notes version of what Kunzait_83 wrote?

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:47 am

No. Just read it.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:02 pm

mAcChaos wrote:No. Just read it.

I do not have that much time; I am only 30 years old.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:48 pm

Kunzait's essay kind of reminded me of the Chris Sabat & Sean Schemmel featurette from the Ultimate Uncut DVD, where Sabat talked about how Vegeta was probably the single most bitter and angry individual on the planet, and Schemmel, while doing a Goku impression, did Goku's likely opinion of Vegeta perfectly (just imagine Goku's voice when reading this): "Do I think Vegeta's a good person? Sure, kinda. He just needs to stop being caught up in this whole 'I'M THE PRINCE OF ALL SAIYANS' stuff, I mean c'mon!" They also talked about how Goku just fights to better himself while Vegeta is the crazy ego-maniac.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:06 am

jjgp1112 wrote:Kunzait's essay kind of reminded me of the Chris Sabat & Sean Schemmel featurette from the Ultimate Uncut DVD, where Sabat talked about how Vegeta was probably the single most bitter and angry individual on the planet, and Schemmel, while doing a Goku impression, did Goku's likely opinion of Vegeta perfectly (just imagine Goku's voice when reading this): "Do I think Vegeta's a good person? Sure, kinda. He just needs to stop being caught up in this whole 'I'M THE PRINCE OF ALL SAIYANS' stuff, I mean c'mon!" They also talked about how Goku just fights to better himself while Vegeta is the crazy ego-maniac.

Yeah but Vegeta is full of bad-assery goodness.

SaiyaMel · Post by **SaiyaMel** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:26 am

In the anime (dub or not) Kakkarot's dimwittedness is exaggerated at times with filler - making him appear even dumber than in the manga.

The Tori-bot · Post by **The Tori-bot** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:43 am

Saiyan-Professor wrote:
mAcChaos wrote:No. Just read it.
I do not have that much time; I am only 30 years old.

Um... what? That makes no sense; you automatically don't have much time because you're 30?

Post by **Herms** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:14 pm

(no matter HOW much it got in the way of his ego; as embarrassing as it must have been for him to lose to the combined efforts of the supposedly weaker kid brother of Raditz, 5 year old Gohan, Kuririn, and fucking Yajirobe, he still had the good sense in his head to turn tail and run to fight another day)

Remember that the whole reason he lost to those people in the first place was becaue he specifically waited for Goku to show up, and sent Nappa and the Saibaimen after Gohan and the others rather than finishing them all off instantly himself. He also toyed with Goku when they began fighting, and taunted him to use the Kaio-ken. And on Planet Namek, he stood around laughing at Zarbon when Zarbon told him he was about to transform and become far more powerful. Sure none of this is as stupid as him allowing Cell to reach his perfect form, but he's always been shown as being cocky and making mistakes when he has the upper hand. It's only when he knows he's at a disadvantage that we see him get tactical.

Chrono Trigger · Post by **Chrono Trigger** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:51 pm

Herms wrote:Remember that the whole reason he lost to those people in the first place was becaue he specifically waited for Goku to show up, and sent Nappa and the Saibaimen after Gohan and the others rather than finishing them all off instantly himself. He also toyed with Goku when they began fighting, and taunted him to use the Kaio-ken. And on Planet Namek, he stood around laughing at Zarbon when Zarbon told him he was about to transform and become far more powerful. Sure none of this is as stupid as him allowing Cell to reach his perfect form, but he's always been shown as being cocky and making mistakes when he has the upper hand. It's only when he knows he's at a disadvantage that we see him get tactical.

Could you throw in that time he suggested to Freeza that he transform? I think that was worse than letting Cell become perfect. At least with Cell he could have possibly still been stronger but you don't tell someone who is already stronger than you to make them selves even stronger.