Dub Gokou: A Different Character?

[Herms]

At least with Freeza, his transformation was something he could potentially do at any time, unlike Cell's final transformation. Though Vegeta certainly could have tried to kill Freeza before he could have the chance to transform.

[jjgp1112]

And don't forget that Vegeta was under the impression that if him, Gohan, and Krillin teamed up, they could win.

[Kunzait_83]

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[Kendamu]

I suppose a better way of phrasing my thoughts would be to say that those aspects of Vegeta's ego (which yes, were very much present from the getgo) seemed to be overly heightened by the time of the Cell arc, to rather ludicrous extremes. Whereas before he came across as better balanced between his ego and intelligence (with clear, well written demonstrations of both aspects), in the Cell arc, the intelligent aspect seemed to get thrown by the wayside in favor of focusing on and magnifying only his vanity and obsession with his status and rivalry with Goku, at the expense of everything else. This makes him go from being at least somewhat multifaceted, to incredibly one dimensional.

Prior to the Cell arc, I felt that all of these various facets of Vegeta's character were given just the right amount of play. By the Cell arc, Toriyama just goes completely overboard with him, and makes him into more of a caricature (almost self-parody) of himself. It's ALL nothing but the ego, with none of the nuance. And that's not only fairly annoying in and of itself, it's made all the more extra annoying in light of how better balanced all these facets were in the previous arcs.

First, I want to say that your little essay up there about martial artists and honor and not approaching Dragonball as a superhero story was really awesome. Anywho, on with the show.

Maybe by this point his complete change in his approach to facing enemies partially stems from how he goes about getting stronger. By the time he's facing Cell he's earnestly training his ass off to get stronger. Before that, it just seemed that, when faced with stronger opponents, he was just like, "Fuck it. I'll Zenkai. Then, when we fight again, I'll show you!" He looked at it as if a severe ass-beating was worth the instant power boost and, like the underhanded tactician he was, relied on that particular genetic shortcut to overcome the giant wall in between him and the immortality he sought (another shortcut) so he could defeat Freeza and go back to burning ants with a magnifying glass.

By the time he was facing Cell, he was using a more honorable way of achieving power even if it was for less-than-honorable reasons. So, in turn, his decision to start facing his opposition head-on was something of a trait he picked up when he started gaining power through hard work instead of relying on being worked over. I mean, by the time he went off to face Cell, he had been training in solitude for "a year" in the RoSaT. A solid year alone training your ass off can do a lot to a guy.

Just a thought.

[Rocketman]

First of all, I don’t personally find Goku to be all THAT likeable of a character. He’s likeable only up to a point. I 100% agree with Rocketman that he can be an amoral douchebag on numerous occasions.

Where I differ with Rocketman is that I don’t give a shit that the main character has morally reprehensible qualities to him.

I think you misunderstand me. I don't care either if the main character is reprehensible. I'm a fan of the God of War series, after all, and Kratos is arguably worse than Vegeta in everything other than sheer body count.

What burns my grits is when people love on ~Goku~ then turn around and blast Vegeta for doing the exact same things Goku does, and this includes the characters in the story itself.

And no, I really don't see the difference in Goku and Vegeta's attitudes towards fighting. Goku fights because he gets high off fighting, Vegeta fights because he gets high off winning. Difference is where? Especially since neither of them gives two fucks about their family/friends/anybody in the crossfire if THAR KIN B FITE TIEM NAO PLZ

I'm not saying they're equal. Vegeta has waay too much blood on his hands for that. But wash the blood off and Goku and Vegeta aren't two sides of the same coin - they're the letters 'L' and 'I' on the face side.

[JulieYBM]

Well, like you just said--and like Vegeta pointed out--Vegeta fought to win, Gokû just fought to become better than himself.

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[Kunzait_83]

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[Onikage725]

I'm not saying they're equal. Vegeta has waay too much blood on his hands for that. But wash the blood off and Goku and Vegeta aren't two sides of the same coin - they're the letters 'L' and 'I' on the face side.

Agreed- and you can look at your least favorite character as proof. Noone can be further from Vegeta than Gohan. And Gohan, as we learn in the Cell Saga, isn't as similar to Goku as Goku wanted to believe. When Piccolo is a better father, you know something's wrong (part of why I find the filler with Piccolo leading an assist attempt against Cell to be fitting).

[Thanos6]

Very nice essay, Kunzait. And what's especially interesting is that by the end of the series, the demi-Saiyans (and maybe Piccolo, too, though he straddles the line) have taken a "third way" that is more akin to the Western hero model.

It makes the story more ambiguous, as it offers you a stylistic choice in your protagonists; the traditional martial arts protagonist as embodied in Goku, or your more moral, "save the innocents" type that all four kids, but especially Gohan and Mirai Trunks, embody. The division between fans of the two styles is probably one of the biggest, though least-suspected, rifts in the fandom.

Which makes it really interesting when the two styles clash (Goku and Gohan's differing attitudes at the Cell Games really embody this, or to a slightly different extent, Vegeta and Mirai Trunks's in the Cell arc beforehand).

Hmm...did we ever see Goku's reaction to Gohan as the Great Saiyaman?

[Victator Supreme]

Which makes it really interesting when the two styles clash (Goku and Gohan's differing attitudes at the Cell Games really embody this, or to a slightly different extent, Vegeta and Mirai Trunks's in the Cell arc beforehand)

After the transformation, Goku was yelling at Gohan to finish off Cell before it gets desperate. People really grasp at straws to show Goku is not a hero. He is far from your conventional hero. But in the end he is very firmly a hero. Lets look at the arguments.

1. He killed guys in the Red Ribbon Army.

The terrorist group who had already killed a bunch of people and intended to conquer the planet. Goku only came into conflict with them when they were hurting others. He only launched a final attack on their headquarters so he could resurrect a man they killed. The only Red Ribbon soilders who died were ones who attacked him first. Either by attacking with a rocket launcher. Or from a flying craft.


2. He let Freeza live.

How could anybody read this as a unheroic act. He had overcome his rage and shown mercy to someone who did not deserve. Thats the sign of a pure heroic heart. Could Freeza attack earth? Yes and Goku would have defeated him with ease.

3. He did not kill Buu when he had the chance.

The people who use this complaint will thn say he is irresponsible later. Here he is being responsible. He realises he is dead and that the earth needed new heroes. He was trying to teach them to fish. His plan would of worked perfectly if not for outside factors. If not for the gunmen Buu would of changed his ways. Even if he did not. Gotenks would of completed his training and destroyed Buu. While (even though he did not know it.) Gohan would of gained incredible power.

[Thanos6]

Which makes it really interesting when the two styles clash (Goku and Gohan's differing attitudes at the Cell Games really embody this, or to a slightly different extent, Vegeta and Mirai Trunks's in the Cell arc beforehand)

After the transformation, Goku was yelling at Gohan to finish off Cell before it gets desperate.

I was talking about Goku throwing Cell a senzu bean. If the positions were reversed, Gohan wouldn't have done that. He would never even have considered it.

[jjgp1112]

I also hate it when people say that Goku isn't a hero. He may have weird ways of going about things, but his motives are definitely heroic.

I mean, how can you say Goku's not heroic when he says stuff like:

"You've killed so many blameless people one after another!"

"For all of the Saiyans you've killed, and fr all of the Namekians you've killed here, I will defeat you!"

"So for all of this, you killed a bunch of innocent people? I definitely ain't lettin you get away with this!"

[Rocketman]

2. He let Freeza live.

How could anybody read this as a unheroic act. He had overcome his rage and shown mercy to someone who did not deserve. Thats the sign of a pure heroic heart. Could Freeza attack earth? Yes and Goku would have defeated him with ease.

August, 1944.
With the success of the Normandy landings in the west and Operation Bagration in the east, Germany is beaten. Allied forces have withdrawn to their home countries in victory without ever crossing into German territory. As President Roosevelt said today, "We are satisfied. Germany has hit its peak and burned out. There's no point in fighting anymore."

Adolf Hitler remains the Fuhrer of Germany, and the Allied withdrawal leaves the Nazi government intact in all of central and eastern Europe.

British Prime Minister Churchill added, "As long as he stays away from us in the future, who cares?"

[Raki]

2. He let Freeza live.

How could anybody read this as a unheroic act. He had overcome his rage and shown mercy to someone who did not deserve. Thats the sign of a pure heroic heart. Could Freeza attack earth? Yes and Goku would have defeated him with ease.

August, 1944.
With the success of the Normandy landings in the west and Operation Bagration in the east, Germany is beaten. Allied forces have withdrawn to their home countries in victory without ever crossing into German territory. As President Roosevelt said today, "We are satisfied. Germany has hit its peak and burned out. There's no point in fighting anymore."

Adolf Hitler remains the Fuhrer of Germany, and the Allied withdrawal leaves the Nazi government intact in all of central and eastern Europe.

British Prime Minister Churchill added, "As long as he stays away from us in the future, who cares?"

They probably would have taken over the Middle East and Africa and really become unstoppable. But it's not really fair to compare Goku to the Allies of WW2. Goku had the power to kill Freeza anytime he wanted to after he turned Super Saiyan. We aren't sure if the Allies could have beaten Hitler if they left after Normandy.

[The Time Traveller]

I could have sworn Roosevelt was the idiot and Churchill was the small one.

[Victator Supreme]

2. He let Freeza live.

How could anybody read this as a unheroic act. He had overcome his rage and shown mercy to someone who did not deserve. Thats the sign of a pure heroic heart. Could Freeza attack earth? Yes and Goku would have defeated him with ease.

August, 1944.
With the success of the Normandy landings in the west and Operation Bagration in the east, Germany is beaten. Allied forces have withdrawn to their home countries in victory without ever crossing into German territory. As President Roosevelt said today, "We are satisfied. Germany has hit its peak and burned out. There's no point in fighting anymore."

Adolf Hitler remains the Fuhrer of Germany, and the Allied withdrawal leaves the Nazi government intact in all of central and eastern Europe.

British Prime Minister Churchill added, "As long as he stays away from us in the future, who cares?"

Stupid asinine comparison. Try harder.

[JulieYBM]

Gokuh did ask him to get stronger. That either means Gokuh stopped caring about fighting strong foes and becoming stronger or that he was arrogant enough to think he'd never be defeated again.

[Big Boss]

Gokuh did ask him to get stronger. That either means Gokuh stopped caring about fighting strong foes and becoming stronger or that he was arrogant enough to think he'd never be defeated again.

Sorry but, what is "Gokuh"?

[JulieYBM]

Gokuh did ask him to get stronger. That either means Gokuh stopped caring about fighting strong foes and becoming stronger or that he was arrogant enough to think he'd never be defeated again.

Sorry but, what is "Gokuh"?

Using an 'h' as a sign of a longer vowel isn't necessarly incorrect. You've seen the spelling Kaioh, right? Same thing.

Honestly, I use Gokû most of the time, just felt like switching it up this time.

[Big Boss]

Gokuh did ask him to get stronger. That either means Gokuh stopped caring about fighting strong foes and becoming stronger or that he was arrogant enough to think he'd never be defeated again.

Sorry but, what is "Gokuh"?

Using an 'h' as a sign of a longer vowel isn't necessarly incorrect. You've seen the spelling Kaioh, right? Same thing.

Honestly, I use Gokû most of the time, just felt like switching it up this time.

Oh right, I see.