Xenophobia: How does it impact the DragonBall fanbase?

[Olivier Hague]

Yes, when it started was a real long time ago but it formed the roots of both how television is made, and how a person expects to watch television, reinforcing how it is made.

Nah, I don't buy it, sorry.
While you could make the argument that TV news, talk shows and the like can easily be traced back to their radio origins and "watched" without the image (or with little attention to it), you just can't argue that's true for nowadays television overall, and especially not for works of fiction (which would be the core of what we were discussing here, as we were talking about subs and dubs).

Ever notice on say CSI when someone dies even if you see it in massive visual detail they will always, always say "He died!"

That's just bad writing.
Besides, you'll find that in movies as well (and cinema started out with captions, not speech ;þ)...

Or to use a star trek refference, "He's dead, Jim."

A Star Trek movie reference. :þ

[Victator Supreme]

television is more of a RADIO medium we do more listening then we do watching.

... What?

You are saying if they could not of done a proper dub they would not of brought this to America at the height of the toy boom. Thats ridiculous.

Holy shit, man. English. Use it.

And what I'm saying is... what I've said already.

Go choke to death on cum.

[VegettoEX]

Go choke to death on cum.

Aaaaaaaaand you're banned.

Continue as normal, everyone else.

[MCDaveG]

Go choke to death on cum.

Aaaaaaaaand you're banned.

Continue as normal, everyone else.

God damn it, that's what I'm afraid for sometimes because of my misclicks or opinions

[VegettoEX]

God damn it, that's what I'm afraid for sometimes because of my misclicks or opinions

You're from a different country and don't speak English the same way the majority of people here do. You make this clear, and are not a jerk for the sake of being a jerk.

This was not that.

This situation is over and resolved. Please continue the actual conversation, or do not bother posting. Thanks!

[laserkid]

Yes, when it started was a real long time ago but it formed the roots of both how television is made, and how a person expects to watch television, reinforcing how it is made.

Nah, I don't buy it, sorry.
While you could make the argument that TV news, talk shows and the like can easily be traced back to their radio origins and "watched" without the image (or with little attention to it), you just can't argue that's true for nowadays television overall, and especially not for works of fiction (which would be the core of what we were discussing here, as we were talking about subs and dubs).

Ever notice on say CSI when someone dies even if you see it in massive visual detail they will always, always say "He died!"

That's just bad writing.
Besides, you'll find that in movies as well (and cinema started out with captions, not speech ;þ)...

Or to use a star trek refference, "He's dead, Jim."

A Star Trek movie reference. :þ

With drama theres a lot of cues from old time radio dramas like Zorro, Davy Crockette, or the Shadow. Heck, "All my Children" started as a radio drama and transitioned to TV. In that sense Dragonnball, a melodrama, has more links to radio then television news does.

(On a side note while he can't because he's rightfully banned, I apologize for Victator Supreme's comment to you it was stupid and uncalled for in our little back and forth).

[Olivier Hague]

With drama theres a lot of cues from old time radio dramas

I won't argue otherwise. But clearly, there's (a lot) more to it than just that.

In that sense Dragonnball, a melodrama, has more links to radio then television news does.

Ow!
Nope. 'Won't follow you there, sorry. ^_^;

(On a side note while he can't because he's rightfully banned, I apologize for Victator Supreme's comment to you it was stupid and uncalled for in our little back and forth).

Er... You mean he would apologize if he could, but asked you to do it on his behalf?
Anyway, I personally don't care about stuff like that (but I can see why VegettoEX would). It wasn't hurtful in any way, merely vulgar and pointless.

[laserkid]

I don't know Victator Supreme at all but seeing as he was attacking you and we were debating I felt it necessary to apologize for him. I have no idea if he is or not.

And you don't follow me, that's alright, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Honestly it didn't make sense to me at first either, a good friend of mine is a very serious film major and I learned all this from him.

[Olivier Hague]

I don't know Victator Supreme at all but seeing as he was attacking you and we were debating I felt it necessary to apologize for him. I have no idea if he is or not.

Whoa. That's nice of you, but you really didn't have to. ^^

[Li'l Lemmy]

The only reason it should be "difficult" to follow a show via subtitles is if you've never read them before, and even then the challenge is remote at best.

Why shouldn't it be possible to read lines of dialogue and take in the image simultaneously? I know that this is what happens with me-- hell, I assumed that this was normal for human beings as a whole. Unless my eyes are absolutely locked onto the font, like if I'm taking split-second notice to make sure that I didn't misread one word for another, I can read and watch at the same time without issue. I don't feel as though I'm missing out on anything, because it's all right there in front of me anyway.

Mind you, that's only when I'm actually sitting down to give it my complete attention-- this is no longer typical. For all its visual action, I still count DragonBall as an extremely dialogue-oriented series (like, say, Star Trek) that you can more-or-less follow by listening in from the next room, especially if you've heard said dialogue as much as the majority of us probably have. I don't much need to read anymore, because I already know who's saying what through A) context of things like sound effects and musical cues and B) knowing where I am in the story. Factor in that DragonBall is an anime that tends to repeat itself, and you already know what Vegeta's pissed about regardless of the episode.

Going back to the original original topic-- xenophobia and whatnot-- reveals many reason for such people's preference of dub over sub.

I think a LOT of it is simply that reading is a touch more of an effort than listening, and just enough where one would prefer not to bother with the former. Attitudes of "If I wanted to read, I'd pick up a book (or in this case, the manga)" are prevalent enough in our American society to be factored into the discussion. An illusion is generated in which it's "easier" to hear DragonBall in English rather than follow along with subtitles, which works fine in theory, but is the detrimental choice for this particular property if you care about truly knowing the story-- it can definitely be argued that something has been lost in FUNi's translation whether we (on individual levels) enjoy that translation or not.

Some people just prefer the sound of their own language, which by itself branches into multiple reasons that range from trivial minutiae like "Sean Schemmel > Masako Nozawa, LOL" to closeted racism against anything foreign, with all sorts of junk in between. I've noticed, for example, that people who don't know the original version well will sometimes lend it or even just outright "villianize" it with this overbearing Japanese-heavy anti-Western tone or theme that highlights the need for an all-out understanding of that culture to successfully enjoy the show, which is overstating the rather minimal cultural influence that's undercurrent in DragonBall. Yes, it's there, but it's not obtrusive and certainly isn't something along the lines of "the sins of our fathers" or whatever the hell it was Schemmel said when he initially justified Americanizing the property. Don't know that that's daifuku that Goku's eating? Most people don't. I can guarantee that Schemmel sure as fuck doesn't. But since it ain't crucial to the plot, don't even worry about it. Just go and look it up if you're curious; learn something.

A third group of people-- again, this is perhaps DragonBall-specific-- are simply used to the dub itself. For as many people there are who convert exclusively to the original version after exposure, there are just as many who give that version a fair chance and decide that they simply like FUNi's version better, in which subtitles become irrelevant aside from perhaps the occasional fact-checking. This, coupled with the knowledge that DragonBall is an irregularity with most current dubs being increasingly faithful to their original counterparts, can play a significant role in their decisions to watch other subtitled programs in the future.

I've kinda lost where I was going with all this, but hopefully some of it's relevant. I'll, uh . . . take another crack at it later. o.o


~Da Lemmy

[Innagadadavida]

The fourth group of people are those who enjoy both versions and regularly switch back and forth. I know I'm not the only one.

Great post, Li'l Lemmy. There are so few people who can look at both sides objectively and explain it objectively as well.

[B]

An illusion is generated in which it's "easier" to hear DragonBall in English rather than follow along with subtitles, which works fine in theory, but is the detrimental choice for this particular property if you care about truly knowing the story-- it can definitely be argued that something has been lost in FUNi's translation whether we (on individual levels) enjoy that translation or not.

This. No matter how much you may like the dub, it's impossible to argue you're losing a bit of information. You'd think that'd be the most important thing to people.

[Li'l Lemmy]

An illusion is generated in which it's "easier" to hear DragonBall in English rather than follow along with subtitles, which works fine in theory, but is the detrimental choice for this particular property if you care about truly knowing the story-- it can definitely be argued that something has been lost in FUNi's translation whether we (on individual levels) enjoy that translation or not.

This. No matter how much you may like the dub, it's impossible to argue you're losing a bit of information. You'd think that'd be the most important thing to people.

It becomes important the more a person immerses himself in the Dragon World. But it can be argued that said person must become a fan of what's there before he will care about the missing details. The problem is that those details can be key to bringing in new fans.

Example. A newbie is exposed to FUNi's DragonBall. If he likes it, then he'll educate himself on the series and its characters and will invariably hear about the original, wherein he will eventually come to the decision that each of us as fans have made.

But what if he doesn't like it or regards it as a mere curiosity? Then chances are that he will simply never pursue the option to watch the original version. Why, though? In most cases, it's because they discover that DragonBall just ain't their thing-- it's unrealistic that everyone could or should like it-- but in some instances it's that the property was not presented in a credible enough fashion to warrant a second look. This is why it's so important for media translations of foreign literatures an' such to be as authentic as possible, because they are representative ambassadors of the original-- this ensures that only the material itself can be fairly and universally subjected to criticism and cited as responsible for "I don't like this" rather than someone else's weird-ass take on said material being the problem. There's plenty of people out there who like the FUNi dub, but there's also some who never caught the flavor of the show because they thought that it sucked presentation-wise. How many (that would be otherwise) potentially genuinely interested people do blunders like these cost the fandom?

The English version of Burst Limit, both in script and performance, does a fair bit of justice to its Japanese counterpart, while the show that Burst Limit is based off of has a (for the most part) below-average dub when compared to its source material. This is a sad state of affairs because such a situation, like the dub itself, contributes to the misconception that DragonBall is of a varied "mixed bag" quality when in truth it's of a single consistent quality (usually) when it comes to the original, one which you may or may not like.

Oddl enough, this is not the productive area of discussion that I thought it would be when I started typing. At the very least, I don't see how it meshes well with the original topic. Why did I go on and on like that?

Great post, Li'l Lemmy. There are so few people who can look at both sides objectively and explain it objectively as well.

I don't think that I did as well as all that, but sometimes I'm too critical of myself to notice when I do. Thanks for the compliment!


~Da Lemmy

[Rocketman]

Some people just prefer the sound of their own language

And this is what other people mistake for xenophobia.

[Li'l Lemmy]

I agree and disagree.

Xenophobia in DragonBall fandom does most certainly exist; however, I don't think that all the reasons of preference for watching rather than reading the show necessarily translate into something xenophobic. It's entirely possible to dislike the sound of a language based on its phonetics alone rather than have it be something against Japanese DragonBall itself. Ryo Horikawa is a fine actor, but if for some reason you try and try and try but just can't take Vegeta seriously because Japanese sounds ridiculous compared to what you know, then it speaks more to your relationship with the language that you like and are accustomed to and doesn't necessarily translate to xenophobia. It's the same reason that some people can't stand the dub voices-- characters are capable to sound stupid no matter what the language, because it's all a highly subjective and personal matter of preference.

What crosses the line is when people take unnecessary potshots at the language and/or culture barrier. Saying that Masako Nozawa as Goku is uncomfortably high-pitched in your opinion is fine; saying that Goku sounds like a girl and citing this as a reason that the original version sucks or is somehow "bad" without any further constructive criticism is not.


~Da Lemmy

[laserkid]

I'll totally back what L'il Lemmy is saying here.

[Innagadadavida]

Lemmy is rocking this thread.

I hadn't considered the sound of a language could factor into whether or not someone likes the English or Japanese version. Then again, that's something one can easily adjust his or her self with.

[Captain Awesome]

This is a fantastic thread, I'm still making my way through everything, but I've got a lot to say from especially concerning Australian anime fandom and even Australians in general.

But I'm half awake and haven't been able to organise my thoughts into anything coherent yet.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Lemmy is rocking this thread.

ROCKIN' A LITTLE HARDER NOW, YEAH.

No, not really. I just tend to get talky, and it's been awhile since I've been around in a capacity other than constant lurking. Been kinda busy.

Then again, that's something one can easily adjust his or her self with.

Not necessarily. He's free to correct me should I be wrong, but I believe the legend goes that a good portion of why Rocketman prefers the FUNi dub is because the Japanese voices don't suit the characters in his opinion. If he could have reconciled himself with this fact "easily", he likely would have by now . . . although it could also be argued that he simply doesn't care to.

The sound of a language can play a role in preference, certainly . . . or at least I would think so. Sound is as subjective as dialogue or a voice, and there are character voices on both sides of DragonBall that just sound ridiculous to the opposing camps of our fandom.

You can like the various Star Trek series but abhor the Klingon dialect, for example-- it's not something you have against Star Trek, which you still like, or even against just Klingons, which for you may be the favorite race of Star Trek, but if the the guttural, I'm-always-pissed-about-something language drives you batty and makes you wish that they were speaking in English then it's nothing that indicates a xenophobic attitude. All it means is that you're unaccustomed.

In the case of DragonBall, this can be alleviated in one of two ways. The first and most obvious route is to ignore the original language and stick to the dub, which is what the majority of dub-oriented fans-- the ones who have a definite problem with the Japanese voices-- tend to do. The other less common method is to try and learn a bit of the language and see what happens. I'm all for either option, although the second gives you the choice to learn something new about yourself and explore the series from a secondary dimension. (I believe the OP is in the process of learning, and my girlfriend has been fluent for years.) This isn't to suggest that learning a new language is easy or that the reason for doing so should be reduced to the likes of "because anime made me do it" . . . but if it's something you commit to and eventually succeed at, then what the hell? And then maybe Japanese will sound a little better to your ear than when you knew nothing.

Granted, learning a new language isn't necessarily realistic for everyone, and I can think of a few people that would use the suggestion as an valid argument for "why should I learn a new language when I can just watch DragonBall in English", but the option to do either is out there.

I'll totally back what L'il Lemmy is saying here.

In what way? Don't just agree with me; tell us WHASSUUUUUUUP!!

This is a fantastic thread, I'm still making my way through everything, but I've got a lot to say from especially concerning Australian anime fandom and even Australians in general.

But I'm half awake and haven't been able to organise my thoughts into anything coherent yet.

Corey can usually be counted on to stir up interesting discussions. This is a good one.


~Da Lemmy

[Super Sonic]

Know xenophobia is the reason why they used to always Americanize anime. Especially in the early days since a lot of people still had grudges against Japan in the Astro Boy days.