Xenophobia: How does it impact the DragonBall fanbase?

[laserkid]

L'il Lemmy, specifically that some people just don't like the sound of the Japanese language. I have seen this. A lot. It's not so much my reason for watching most anime dubbed but I've seen it a lot.

Outside of DBZ which I do watch subbed exclusively I tend to watch a show dubbed to get the general feel of the show, or if I feel lazy and just want to veg with it. After the first dub run I usually watch a show subbed after to get all the fine little details a dub is liable to miss on. Its just a quirk that works best for me. xD

Super Sonic also hit the nail on the head. You want xenophobia in anime? See renaming Japanese characters into english. Oh say like....Goku becoming Zero in Dragon Power.

[Li'l Lemmy]

L'il Lemmy, specifically that some people just don't like the sound of the Japanese language. I have seen this. A lot. It's not so much my reason for watching most anime dubbed but I've seen it a lot.

I've seen it too, which is why I felt it worthy of mention. It can look childish or even bigoted from the point of view of fans who actually prefer the original Japanese, but it's typically not meant to be taken that way. There are people who really just . . . don't like the sound of the language, a la Rocketman. These fans exist in an unusual void within the general fandom, almost caught between worlds, because A) to Japanese fans it doesn't sound like a real reason so much as it does an excuse to drink Hateorade on the Japanese cast and B) to English fans it sounds like a way of proclaiming preference for the dub without actually proclaiming it; essentially, "wussing out". I've seen it a hundred times.

Outside of DBZ which I do watch subbed exclusively I tend to watch a show dubbed to get the general feel of the show, or if I feel lazy and just want to veg with it. After the first dub run I usually watch a show subbed after to get all the fine little details a dub is liable to miss on. Its just a quirk that works best for me. xD

Back in the day, I used to have my own system-- I'd watch the dub through and through, and then watch it again with the Japanese subtitle track running concurrently with the the dub dialogue. Along the way I would occasionally become interested in comparing performances between the two versions at specific or key moments, and would do so. And it progressed from there.

Super Sonic also hit the nail on the head. You want xenophobia in anime? See renaming Japanese characters into english. Oh say like....Goku becoming Zero in Dragon Power.

The 2003 dub of Astro Boy fared no better. A horrible translation unworthy of the property that made it feel like we were back in the 1960's all over again.


~Da Lemmy

[Freeza Heika]

I can definitely understand not liking the sound of a language. I like the way Japanese sounds, but I can't stand the way some other languages sound. The phoenetic roots of different languages can create a problem. Likely, people who speak languages deeply rooted in Latin don't mind the sound of other languages based on Latin. Same goes for Greek and Arabic roots.

Some languages were developed completely independent of others. This is why African languages are often stereotyped as being clicks. Africa's languages (specifically south of the equator) were all devoid of contact with today's common languages for centuries.

This is completely superfluous, but I'm going to go ahead and include the languages that I think most English speakers might find annoying based on their etymological roots. Some are ones that I know I dislike, and others are ones that I know differ vastly from English phonology.

Swahili
Farsi
Hindi
Mandarin
Arabic
Gaelic
German

You'll notice that many of those are from places that were cut off to the west or at odds with the west for a long time.

[Deep Thought]

James Rolfe, on Godzilla, said it best,

"When it's dubbed, it's hard to take it seriously, but when it's subtitled you have to read your way through the whole movie. Yeah, if I want to read, I'll get a friggin' book. Depends on the movie (or show in this case), but for something like this, I prefer dubbing, because I'm lazy and I just want to WATCH a movie. WATCH IT, not read it."

Well, if something like Death Note got atrocious dubbing, I'd probably watch it subbed. But for some action-packed, light-on-plot, stupid shit like Dragon Ball? Please. The only reason I'm still fascinated with the anime/manga is because it provides a childhood nostalgic high that no drug can replicate. And, guess what? That nostalgic high only comes with the dub. When I watch the Japanese version, a lot of the nostalgia is gone, and I grow bored of the show fairly fast.

Kind of ironic that if I had no memory of it and watched it now, I'd think it would be a stupid, overrated joke. But, I actually really get a kick out of watching it and discuss it quite frequently. So, there you are.

*Gets out shield*

[VegettoEX]

Well, if something like Death Note got atrocious dubbing, I'd probably watch it subbed. But for some action-packed, light-on-plot, stupid shit like Dragon Ball? Please. The only reason I'm still fascinated with the anime/manga is because it provides a childhood nostalgic high that no drug can replicate. And, guess what? That nostalgic high only comes with the dub. When I watch the Japanese version, a lot of the nostalgia is gone, and I grow bored of the show fairly fast.

Kind of ironic that if I had no memory of it and watched it now, I'd think it would be a stupid, overrated joke. But, I actually really get a kick out of watching it and discuss it quite frequently. So, there you are.

So it seems like you're a self-proclaimed member of the "just watched the damn thing as a 'show' when it was dubbed on TV" camp (which is totally cool)...

... but makes me wonder why you're on one of the hardest-core forums for the show!

[Li'l Lemmy]

That nostalgic high only comes with the dub. When I watch the Japanese version, a lot of the nostalgia is gone, and I grow bored of the show fairly fast.

The dub is where DragonBall came from for many of us, and I personally still have a blast watching it on occasion despite that I "know better". Watching with the original Japanese audio gives DragonBall the flavor of something more coherent, full-bodied and altogether better, but only watching the dub gives me that nostalgic high you speak of. And I wouldn't trade that for anything.

I like to watch either/or, although usually for different reasons.


~Da Lemmy

[VegettoEX]

The dub is where DragonBall came from for many of us, and I personally still have a blast watching it despite that I "know better". Watching with the original Japanese audio gives DragonBall the flavor of something more coherent, full-bodied and altogether better, but only watching the dub gives me that nostalgic high you speak of. And I wouldn't trade that for anything.

I can watch either/or, although usually for different reasons.

It's probably important to note that for some of us, "the nostalgic dub" isn't the same one the majority is talking about... it's the 1996-1998 original seasons 1+2 run. I've mentioned it time and time again, but it's almost like it was an entirely separate product (its re-dubbing essentially solidifying that)...

... and so with that in mind, I totally "get" the "nostalgic" viewing and the "know better" with watching the original Japanese version.

Personally, though... once I found the original, there was almost no going back. Sure, it was "nostalgic" and all, but it was like a bad food poisoning, or something... I didn't want to revisit it, anymore. Rose-tinted glasses, and that's that.

Something else I've mentioned is how I never had a single problem "transitioning" to the original Japanese. The music didn't bug me. The voices didn't bug me. The sound of the language didn't bug me. I just accepted it as, "OK... so this is what DBZ *is*" and went from there. I didn't have any strange visceral reaction to it like I'm reading about with a lot of people.

At the same time, I somewhat understand the idea of a foreign language sounding too "off" for your brain to comprehend. While I personally didn't have that problem with Japanese (it sounds like a language to me; it has rhythm, flow, context, patterns, etc... and while I don't understand it, all that stuff still rubs off enough for me to process)... I do have that problem with other languages. Chinese languages sounds like gibberish to me. Indian languages sound like gibberish to me. Korean is kinda in the middle.

Japanese, though? Weird. It never did that to me.

(lolz sometimes when people speak english it sounds like gibberish to me.)

[Rocketman]

This is completely superfluous, but I'm going to go ahead and include the languages that I think most English speakers might find annoying based on their etymological roots.

German

Really? English is descended from German, specifically the German spoken by the Anglo-Saxons when those barbarian tribes invaded the Roman province of Britannia in the early 400s AD.

Not necessarily. He's free to correct me should I be wrong, but I believe the legend goes that a good portion of why Rocketman prefers the FUNi dub is because the Japanese voices don't suit the characters in his opinion.

Not exactly. I just don't like the sound of the Japanese language. I've said that before on here and was met with a chorus of "WHAAA?!" ("NANI?!") and accusations of being a racist, which did not exactly endear me to change my ways.

[Metalwario64]

James Rolfe, on Godzilla, said it best,

"When it's dubbed, it's hard to take it seriously, but when it's subtitled you have to read your way through the whole movie. Yeah, if I want to read, I'll get a friggin' book. Depends on the movie (or show in this case), but for something like this, I prefer dubbing, because I'm lazy and I just want to WATCH a movie. WATCH IT, not read it."

Haha, good ol' AVGN!

That really is the way I feel about this whole "dub vs. sub" ordeal; I can read the subtitles, but I like to watch (or, to be more accurate listen to)them talk, not read their words on the bottom of the screen.

Although, I do make an exception for FUNimation's Season 3 dub most of the time however...

Another good point Rolfe makes is when he mentions that Godzilla was shortened and had a narrator, he mentions how it was "probably made to digest it for us stupid Americans." ...Makes me think of the early dubs and their constant adding of dialogue and Saban's constant cutting of scenes (not the censorship, just in general).

[Li'l Lemmy]

Something else I've mentioned is how I never had a single problem "transitioning" to the original Japanese. The music didn't bug me. The voices didn't bug me. The sound of the language didn't bug me. I just accepted it as, "OK... so this is what DBZ *is*" and went from there. I didn't have any strange visceral reaction to it like I'm reading about with a lot of people.

It's all highly subjective and entirely dependent on the individual; there likely isn't any concrete, solid answer that we can use to point out what's normal and what isn't. Buuut . . . considering that this is a DragonBall forum dedicated to the discussion of DragonBall with your particular preference being the original-- and especially considering that there are other languages that are off-putting to you personally-- I'd say that you got lucky to not have an off-putting reaction with Japanese, if only because it seems that you were put on this earth (DragonBall-wise) to celebrate the show in its original Japanese context.

Your interjection to isolate a specific dub as the one that best invokes feelings of nostalgia for you is duly noted. Oddly enough, I grew up watching them both-- my introduction to DragonBall was in the form of the 96'-98' dub, and when it evolved into the current version I was taken aback and, quite frankly, pissed. But the plot endured as did my fascination with it, because in truth there's probably very little you could do by means of altering the presentation of DragonBall that would keep it from being a success so long as the story is generally intact-- it's just that much fun.

Not exactly. I just don't like the sound of the Japanese language. I've said that before on here and was met with a chorus of "WHAAA?!" ("NANI?!") and accusations of being a racist, which did not exactly endear me to change my ways.

But you don't mean it in a racist way. I don't understand why simply not liking the sound of the language isn't easily distinguishable from something worse . . . especially since, knowing you, you would not mince words too much if it were indeed something worse


~Da Lemmy

[B]

The Japanese language has never bothered me. To me, it's more about what's available, coherent, and something that's just worthwhile.

If I may, I'll use Naruto as an example. I've never bothered with the Japanese version, not because of some fear or distaste for it being Japanese, but the dub essentially offers me the same thing, which FUNimation didn't do with Dragon Ball. But the difference is, DB hits me at a level where I'd want to know more information about it, hence me looking for the original version. Naruto is just this okay show that I watch; I don't bother with any aspect of it(manga, games, guidebooks) beyond the dub of the show itself; and this is where I could kind of get behind what Deep Thought mentioned.

And even to go beyond that, if an anime series happens to come out, and it doesn't have a dub, and I decide to watch it, I'm probably not going to bother with whatever eventual dub it may get if the show doesn't really impress me. Going back to Naruto, if I had been exposed to the original version first, I wouldn't have bothered with its dub.

That was probably a bunch of unrelated gobbledygook that doesn't make sense, and that I just spent 10 mintues typing. Great.

[JulieYBM]

The Japanese language has never bothered me. To me, it's more about what's available, coherent, and something that's just worthwhile.

If I may, I'll use Naruto as an example. I've never bothered with the Japanese version, not because of some fear or distaste for it being Japanese, but the dub essentially offers me the same thing, which FUNimation didn't do with Dragon Ball. But the difference is, DB hits me at a level where I'd want to know more information about it, hence me looking for the original version. Naruto is just this okay show that I watch; I don't bother with any aspect of it(manga, games, guidebooks) beyond the dub of the show itself; and this is where I could kind of get behind what Deep Thought mentioned.

And even to go beyond that, if an anime series happens to come out, and it doesn't have a dub, and I decide to watch it, I'm probably not going to bother with whatever eventual dub it may get if the show doesn't really impress me. Going back to Naruto, if I had been exposed to the original version first, I wouldn't have bothered with its dub.

That was probably a bunch of unrelated gobbledygook that doesn't make sense, and that I just spent 10 mintues typing. Great.

No, I gotcha. Basically, accuracy, which is something I want to. While I only follow the Naruto dub, I follow both FUNimation's One Piece and the original Japanese, and for anything else so long as it's accurate I watch it dubbed.

[Freeza Heika]

This is completely superfluous, but I'm going to go ahead and include the languages that I think most English speakers might find annoying based on their etymological roots.

German

Really? English is descended from German, specifically the German spoken by the Anglo-Saxons when those barbarian tribes invaded the Roman province of Britannia in the early 400s AD.

English is based of off the same language as German, not German itself. They are based from the Proto-Germanic language. Given 2500 years, they easily diverged from one-another. English has since been pervaded by strongly Latin and Greek influenced languages, as well as some languages spoken by the natives of Britannia during the era of the Roma Empire. More specifically French and Gaelic. Though, American English is now strongly influenced by Spanish as well.

[Rocketman]

English is based of off the same language as German, not German itself. They are based from the Proto-Germanic language. Given 2500 years, they easily diverged from one-another. English has since been pervaded by strongly Latin and Greek influenced languages, as well as some languages spoken by the natives of Britannia during the era of the Roma Empire. More specifically French and Gaelic. Though, American English is now strongly influenced by Spanish as well.

2500 years? It's only been 1600 years since the Germans invaded Britain. And the split between English and German began because the Anglo-Saxons left the main body of Germans and settled on an island.

And while English was influenced by French after the Norman Conquest, it is at heart a Germanic language and is classified as such.

[Big Boss]

I'm gonna' recommend this forum to a few history students.

[Freeza Heika]

English is based of off the same language as German, not German itself. They are based from the Proto-Germanic language. Given 2500 years, they easily diverged from one-another. English has since been pervaded by strongly Latin and Greek influenced languages, as well as some languages spoken by the natives of Britannia during the era of the Roma Empire. More specifically French and Gaelic. Though, American English is now strongly influenced by Spanish as well.

2500 years? It's only been 1600 years since the Germans invaded Britain. And the split between English and German began because the Anglo-Saxons left the main body of Germans and settled on an island.

And while English was influenced by French after the Norman Conquest, it is at heart a Germanic language and is classified as such.

The Proto-Germanic language, the earliest form of both English and German, is 2500 years old. It soon branched off into 3 regions. These regions immediatel began to differentiate their langauges. The Germanic Tribes who settled in Britain were North Germanic, as where Modern Germany is encompassed by the territory of the West Germanic speaking tribes.

The languages are both classified as Germanic, but they are then differentiated as being High German and Anglo-Frisian in the more specific classes.

Also, thank you for making me do research in the summer.

[Deep Thought]

So it seems like you're a self-proclaimed member of the "just watched the damn thing as a 'show' when it was dubbed on TV" camp (which is totally cool)...

... but makes me wonder why you're on one of the hardest-core forums for the show!

Nah, you'd actually be wrong. I watched the dub years ago as a child years ago. If I had to guess, I'd be about 7 to 9 years into my fandom. Toonami, being a bunch of dipshits, would randomly switch sagas when they weren't even done. So, the very first saga that I watched was the Freeza vs Goku fight, and I thought it was awesome back then. This was a long, long time ago, like in 2000 when Toonami had it's first interface and Sailor Moon played right after or before it. For some reason or another, I didn't follow the show.

Later on, I somehow rekindled my liking for the show in the 2003-2005. This might be what I call my random prime, maybe. I was enraptured by this little game called Warcraft 3, and, even more so, user created content, and, therefore, Dragon Ball Z maps/mods for Warcraft. One mod, Dragon Ball Z Supreme RPG, introduced me to it's forums and exposed me to the Dragon Ball fans. Granted, the forum was one of the worst ever, but that is neither here nor there. >_>

During that, I had started watching the show again, full force. On Toonami, I watched the near entirety of the Buu Saga. For once, this was and still is the only saga that wasn't disrupted. Unfortunately, Toonami decided that it would be a good idea to end the saga and start up a new one RIGHT when the Kid Buu Arc was beginning, but I digress. That arc was the Trunks/Android arc, but even that I was only able to see till mid fight of Goku and Android 19, then it switched to the Sayajin Saga. I just gave up. Fortunately, I saw GT from beginning to end, minus skipping quite a bit of episodes due to my own laziness. Even as a kid, I merely thought GT was all right. I also saw the Sayajin saga through the Dragon Ball Z. Uncut series, where I thought the intro was totally amazing.

AND, during all THAT, I had a fascination with the Budokai games. I liked the fighting and seeing my favorite characters in video game form. I merely rented Budokai and Budokai 2 until much later, but I got Budokai 3, and played the ever-loving shit out of it. AND, I managed to see movies 4, 5 and 6. Jesus. Oh, and I somehow crammed the Piccolo and Piccolo Jr. sagas into all that.

2005-early 2007, this is when things started to slow down, a lot. 2005 is when I became a web freak and, for some reason, obsessed with fan sites and fan art of specific characters. Not much to say here that wouldn't be mind numbingly dull. I heard of and gradually got all of the Dragon Ball Z mangas from late 2005 to 2008. Then I discovered MFG, and debated about things that would make you sick, like using mathematical measures and calculations for stupid shit like complicated power levels. Eventually growing more and more tired of that, though I still post in that section quite a lot.

In 2005 or 2006, I bought and watched the Broly movie on VHS because of fan-humping. Thought then and still think that Broly wasn't all that.

In 2007 or 2008, I watched the Janemba movie on Cartoon Network, I had heard and seen clips of Hitler being in it prior to seeing it, and I was pissed at how heavily censored it was.

In 2008 (I think), I bought the Freeza saga, from his transformation to his second suppression onwards. I watched it with my brother with dubbing and we had a fucking good time, maybe for all the wrong reasons, but still, a good time. We'd input our comments over key points of conversation and mock them for the stupidity that it was. And, boy, we nearly DIED when we heard the "Yeehaa, ride 'em cowboy" line. It was awesome overall. The fights were also good eye-candy as well.

Made the sad mistake of deciding to take the show more seriously and turning on the Japanese voices. It was dull, very much so. It literally was like reading a book, only a slow, stupid person was reading it to you slowly. You just wish you could fucking turn to the next page, but you couldn't, and, since the plot of DBZ is pretty mediocre, it does NOT make good reading material. It was so mind numbingly dull that we stop watching it.

Recently, saw one of my favorite fights as a kid on Youtube; Vegeto vs Gohan Buu, with the Funi dub. It's the worst saga for a mediocre show with very, very slow pacing, with a bad dub, yet I enjoyed it quite a bit, for nostalgia reasons.

There's my history, and why I cannot stand the Japanese voices with subs.

By the end of the day, Dragon Ball Z a stupid action-fest with little to no plot and no morals that makes fun of death. Yet I love it. <3

[laserkid]

You know, now I have to ask myself why I watch most anime dubbed. Japanese doesn't bother me at all, and I have a very basic understanding of the language from a years worth of classes on it in community college.

I don't have problems reading subs on DBZ.

And yet I just generally preffer to watch anime dubbed because I don't have to read it. Sure reading is doable, but if I don't have to I won't. DBZ's dub is just too terrible for me to not go subtitled.

As for the whole nostalgia dub... ahhh Ian Corlette, I miss you...

That man will always be Goku in my head.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

I hate to break the history lesson, but I have a question out of curiosity for the people who dislike Dubs.

How many of you are from Canada or Europe and are stuck with the Ocean Dub version of Dragonball? From what I hear, Ocean Group distributed the Cell and Buu sagas to Canada and Europe while Funimation distributed it in the states.

I recently watched a video with Ocean Group's version of the buu saga. I was very turned off by it. There was something about it that just made me want to click away before I finished watching. I thought back to this thread and I was wondering what other fans feelings towards this version might be(as apposed to Funimation's version). I also wanted to know if this was the version that killed DBZ dubbing for you?

[laserkid]

I never thought I'd hear someone trash the Ocean cast. T-T