An honest question

[Innagadadavida]

Oh geez... This again. Alright *Cracks Knuckles*

Let me start off by saying that I'm a fan of both versions, and I'm well versed in both. I've seen a majority of Dragon Ball Z in Japanese and a small portion of GT in Japanese. That's all for now because those are the only DVDs I have. Being a dub fan, I'm feel that I'm often unfairly categorized as an ignorant childish buffoon. When I make defenses on behalf of FUNimation or the dub, or if I try to call somebody out when they're being hypocritical or just silly, my intentions are almost always misinterpreted as either justification of my own preferences or immature FUNi-loving dribble. In some cases what I have said in the past actually was justification or ignorance, so I don't blame anybody for making assumptions. However, I like to think I'm a little more thoughtful and informed about what I say here now.

Now that that's out of the way, I'll address your criticisms. None of these are new criticisms, it's the same-ol-same broken record repetition that you yourself, NeptuneKai, criticized fans of the dub for the other day when you claimed you were taking a break. I do mean offense by that, but it's not to hurt you because I actually think you're a swell guy.

1) The inaccurate script
Well, let's see. Does the minor inaccuracies really effect the overall story? No not really. It's just little stuff. Motives are changed, one-liners are added, stupid jokes are thrown in, and it's all annoying and unnecessary. But does it effect my enjoyment of the show? Not at all. So many people get hung up on it to the point of bringing it up to complain about it, despite the fact that they don't even watch that version. I don't know why, but it just doesn't bother me. Besides, when I'm in the mood to hear the real story, to see the real motives, to have the stupid jokes excluded, I watch the Japanese version. I don't make a big deal out of it, because I honestly don't see it as such a big deal, especially when I have options.

2) The stupid jokes
Yes the jokes are stupid. They're not funny. My sense of humor is much more complex than the stupid jokes and clichés the dub throws in. But, then again, I'm not a child. These jokes aren't meant for me. They're aimed at children, because it's a children's show. Will a kid laugh at some of these? Probably. It's not very hard to make a kid laugh. Why make a joke aimed at my demographic when the majority doesn't even watch cartoons and the target audience won't understand them. But then again, why throw them in at all? Well, I'm not FUNimation, so I don't know. I'm not talking about their reason, I'm talking about my view on them and how they don't effect my viewing experience.

3) Plot alterations
Vegeta's story of becoming a Super Saiyan has changed. Piccolo's inner struggle is ignored completely. Tao is now a General. Gero is the head of the army... So how does that effect me? I hate it. I wish it wasn't, but it is and I hate it. We know that they decided to make some of these alterations because the audience was unfamiliar with the original story and they wouldn't know any better. And I think that's a stupid. In fact, the dub is part of the reason I hate the Cell arc so much. Other than the fact that it's an uninspired mess, other than the fact that it crawls along at a Namek-reminiscent snail's pace, other than the fact that the villain is stupid, the dub sucks. It all adds up to be pretty boring and upsetting. But it's still Dragon Ball. I like the characters, I like the action, so I watch it. I watch it in English because that's part of what the show is to me. And I watch it in Japanese because it's slightly more tolerable during this portion.

But I guess that's what I should be addressing. Why IS Dragon Ball in English such a big part to me? Well, I guess it's for continuity. As I've mentioned countless times, I was introduced to Dragon Ball through the FUNimation dub of the original series on Toonami. I didn't watch much of Dragon Ball Z. I was aware of it and had a little bit of knowledge about it, but for the most part I just watched Dragon Ball. I loved the characters, I loved the story, I loved the sense of adventure, and I loved the music. It was an amazing show and it was my favorite at the time. So when I went back years later to watch it, I wanted to watch it the way I remembered it. I watched it with the FUNimation dub. Then when I was finished with Dragon Ball, I continued the story the only way I knew how, the dub again. In fact, I don't even think I acknowledged the fact that it was a Japanese show. It was just a cartoon to me I didn't care about where it came from, who made it, what kind of people enjoy it, it was just entertainment. My traditional view of entertainment doesn't involve subtitles. I'm sorry, but that's how it is. I say that with the risk of sounding ignorant, but my personal preference when watching TV is to listen to the dialog, not read it. Let me reiterate though, since then I have become more involved in the world of Dragon Ball, so naturally, I'm beginning to gravitate to the original version. Obviously it's the way the show was created, it doesn't have any interference from FUNimation, so it's the purist form of the story.

I'd like to lightly go over subs versed dubs because one's preference for one or the other has the largest impact on how a viewer chooses which version to watch. I understand the subs only mentality, it makes sense. I understand dubs only mentality, it also makes sense. Personally, I believe that not only is it a matter of preference, but it's also a matter of perception and possibly brain chemistry. I'm not just a fan of anime, but animation in general. Dragon Ball is the only foreign animation that I'll watch with subtitles when I have the option. Every other anime, I watch dubs. If the dub sucks or there is no dub, I'll just skip it and move on to something that has a good dub. I'm a dubs guy all the way. Reading the subs is too engaging and I like to let my mind wonder while I watch TV. It's not easy to tune in and out when you have to read in order to keep up. When the language is familiar, it makes the dialog easier to keep track of in my subconscious; sound is easier stored in the short-term memory than words. I also feel like I can relate to the characters better when they're speaking in tones that I understand. Sometimes I like to have it playing in the background when I'm working, I can't just listen to the Japanese version, that's just noise to me. Sometimes I like to listen to what's going on while I get up to get a drink. Same thing goes there as well. There's a better, more in-depth discussion here. Check out what Lemmy has to say toward the end. He's probably the only member that posted in that thread that looked at both sides entirely objectively. When he talked he didn't try to persuade one side or the other, he presented the facts and gave his thoughts on some of them, and I agree with what he says mostly.

What I think is the most tiring about subs vs. dubs debates, or even just questions pertaining to one's preference, is there's always somebody who has to jump in and proclaim that they're right and there's no reason to watch the other version. Many dub fans act childish and ignorant (look no further than YouTube comments), it makes me sick. I swear if I see another noob say “they all sound like girls” I'm going to rip my hair out. On the other hand, there are some sub fans who not only assume that they're way is the only way, but also refuse to believe that some people really don't prefer subtitles. They're always jumping the gun by accusing or insinuating that the only reason not to read subs is laziness. Not only that, but you have members who want nothing to do with the dub continuously talk about how it sucks. How many years have you been repeating the same thing? They love to go on and on about how they'd rather have a “vasectomy without local anesthetics” than listen to the dub.... very well, don't. Why do you care so much if you'd rather watch the original in the first place? Oh it's because you want to see the show done justice? Well, it's far too late for that, what's the point in complaining about it and insulting it if you're talking to a group of people who are well aware the version you prefer is superior.

Well, I went and pulled a Kunzait_83 and wrote a damn novel. I belive this is actually the abridged version of my thoughts in the issue. There are tons of things I'd like to go more in-depth but I don't have the time or patience at this point. So I think what I've said is enough. I doubt many have read the entire thing, but I don't expect them to. Why would they?

[jjgp1112]

But I guess that's what I should be addressing. Why IS Dragon Ball in English such a big part to me? Well, I guess it's for continuity. As I've mentioned countless times, I was introduced to Dragon Ball through the FUNimation dub of the original series on Toonami. I didn't watch much of Dragon Ball Z. I was aware of it and had a little bit of knowledge about it, but for the most part I just watched Dragon Ball. I loved the characters, I loved the story, I loved the sense of adventure, and I loved the music. It was an amazing show and it was my favorite at the time. So when I went back years later to watch it, I wanted to watch it the way I remembered it. I watched it with the FUNimation dub. Then when I was finished with Dragon Ball, I continued the story the only way I knew how, the dub again. In fact, I don't even think I acknowledged the fact that it was a Japanese show. It was just a cartoon to me I didn't care about where it came from, who made it, what kind of people enjoy it, it was just entertainment. My traditional view of entertainment doesn't involve subtitles. I'm sorry, but that's how it is. I say that with the risk of sounding ignorant, but my personal preference when watching TV is to listen to the dialog, not read it. Let me reiterate though, since then I have become more involved in the world of Dragon Ball, so naturally, I'm beginning to gravitate to the original version. Obviously it's the way the show was created, it doesn't have any interference from FUNimation, so it's the purist form of the story.

I'd like to lightly go over subs versed dubs because one's preference for one or the other has the largest impact on how a viewer chooses which version to watch. I understand the subs only mentality, it makes sense. I understand dubs only mentality, it also makes sense. Personally, I believe that not only is it a matter of preference, but it's also a matter of perception and possibly brain chemistry. I'm not just a fan of anime, but animation in general. Dragon Ball is the only foreign animation that I'll watch with subtitles when I have the option. Every other anime, I watch dubs. If the dub sucks or there is no dub, I'll just skip it and move on to something that has a good dub. I'm a dubs guy all the way. Reading the subs is too engaging and I like to let my mind wonder while I watch TV. It's not easy to tune in and out when you have to read in order to keep up. When the language is familiar, it makes the dialog easier to keep track of in my subconscious; sound is easier stored in the short-term memory than words. I also feel like I can relate to the characters better when they're speaking in tones that I understand. Sometimes I like to have it playing in the background when I'm working, I can't just listen to the Japanese version, that's just noise to me. Sometimes I like to listen to what's going on while I get up to get a drink. Same thing goes there as well. There's a better, more in-depth discussion

NO, YOU'RE JUST AN ILLITERATE DUMBASS OR SOME 15 YEAR OLD LAZY ASS BASTARD.

Of course I'm kidding. I agree with your whole post.

[NeptuneKai]

That's quite possibly one of the best posts I've ever read on these forums Innagadadavida. Thank you for the extremely thorough answers, I read everything you wrote twice over. I never intended to do a huge rant on why I personally dislike the dub but it just sort of morphed into that the more and more I examined what wasn't to like about that version of the series. I don't think I bash the dub extremely often but I'll try to cut down. Between the dub music and the dub dialogue there is just so much awful material its hard not to poke fun at but I'll attempt to refrain myself. Again that was a fabulous post and I appreciate your contribution.

[Kid Trunks]

While I like the dub, I do accept that the script can be pretty bad at times (In Dragonball and Z). Sometimes when I'm watching it and I hear something that sounds a little...'dub-ish', I switch on the subtitles to see what was actually said. Generally what was actually said was some kind of interesting trivia. My first thought after reading it is always "Now why couldn't they have just dubbed that accurately". But I'm able to bypass this for a few reasons:

1. I like most of the VA's except for a few of the really minor characters (such as some of the red ribbon soldiers etc.).

2. I like Z's dub music. That's not to say I don't like the original music. But the dub music, coupled with some epic scenes, gives me the typ of badass moments I love.

3. The script, although bad at times, more or less gets the message across. At least overall anyway. And since I pretty much know Dragonball/Z inside out, I'm generally comfortable with the dub mistakes. I already know most of the trivia, so the goofy moments that replace them give me a cheap laugh.

4. I see the dub, in a way, as it's only little thing. With the knowledge that I could watch the original version if I wanted, I enjoy the dub for what it is.

There's probably other reasons why I'm happy with the dub in spite of its faults, but I find it difficult to explain why exactly I like something in words more complicated than "Uh...I just do..".

[jjgp1112]

Wow, I never knew that so many people here had the exact same opinion on the dub as I do. I also view it as it's own entity.

[mattymoron]

Gero is the leader of the Red Ribbion Army...

Gero isn't referred to as the leader of RR Army...

[Freeza Heika]

Gero is the leader of the Red Ribbion Army...

Gero isn't referred to as the leader of RR Army...

It is pretty strongly implied. He is referred exactly as "the mastermind behind te Red Ribbon Army".

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

I'd like to sit down and take a minute on this.

It was Funimation that got me into DBZ. I started watching it in 1999 and it still amazes me that DBZ is still alive and healthy today. I hold many memories because of Funimation so I have got to thank them for that.

The dub was greatest thing that happened in my whole life. Without Funimation, I probably wouldn't be a hardcore DBZ fan today. Sure, their script was a little bit off but it was still that good nonetheless. Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Cell all were very good. I can't stand Fat Boo's voice. It bothered my ear so much that I want to shoot myself. Hopefully the voice of Fat Boo will be replaced for Dragon Box.

Sometimes I switched to sub to compare the scripts between these two companies. Most of them are accurate. Few are not. So in my opinion, the voice quality is wqell done and is worthy of my praise. Most of dubs from other countries aren't worth crap. The only very good dubs beside Funimation's are Mexican Spanish and Brazil. So we should be thankful we ever have a good dub in this country.

Now onto Faulconer's BGM for a dub. I'm impressed that Funimation have enough berries to change the music to Funimation's preference. Most countries didn't do that and cling on to the original Japanese BGM. I'm not saying that Faulconer's music is rival to that of Kikiuchi's (correct me if I spelled that wrong). I'm saying that the music for a dub is really great and are memorable. I absolutely love a dub BGM on one of the most popular anime of all time. Can you imagine that there's no other countries that have enough berries to do the music instead of clinging on to original Japanese? That impressed me the most.

Thank a god (Kami-sama) that Funimation kicked out of Ocean Group casts. I can't stand their voice acting. I really enjoy listening to Funimation version of dub as well as Daimao's subtitle. What's even sadder is that Blue Water never released DVD for the fans's pleasure.

[Sn4tcH]

I think that's part of the whole thing, hardcore fans act like dub fans watch the dub because they don't know better of because they're stupid noobs. It's not true, dub fans have had access to DVDs with Japanese language and subtitle options for years.

Heck I've watched DB, DBZ, AND DBGT every episode in both English and Japanese. When I put in a DVD I watch it in English, and watching it Japanese is more of curiosity to me at this point. Why? Because I do.

[DemonRin]

I am asuming from what I've seen, this is a thread where we hope to have inteligent conversation about this stuff without it turning into a flame war.

That being said, I don't have too terribly much of a problem with the voices or the Actors. Honestly, I think their ORIGINAL acting during Season 3 was... less than inspred, but For example, the Performances in Burst Limit and of course One Piece (which employs a lot of the same cast and writers) are amazing.

My major problem with the FUNi dub is and always has been the script writing. the Dialog is just... really bad... it ranges from decent to horrible... like one time they had Vegeta say "GREAT GALAXIES KAKAROTT!!" and they had Vegeta call Son a "Clown" quite often...
Most of Freeza's Dialog suffered too. Seriously, he called Son "Big Boy" I think once or Twice during their fight...

Son was probably the worst in this area. They changed him fundamentally from a Naive and someone uneducated hick who just wants to fight and save his friends, into a Superhero.
And also, they made him dumb, but at the same time still COMPLETELY Literate, which was odd... I would have preferred him to use stuff like "Aint" like Daimao put in the official subs... but yeah, no...

Seriously, if FUNi DOES get Kai, they already said they were gonna give it the One Piece Treatment.
If THAT Happens, I think DBK would have an absolutely AMAZING Dub!

[gallagtor]

My explanation is very simple. The dub is what got me into Dragon Ball in the first place, and even though I watch it in Japanese 90% of the time, it's nice every once in a while to pop in a disc and listen to the voices that I grew up with. Do I think the dub is bad? Yes. Do I think Faulconers music is particularly good? No. But I also think that Transformers and GI JOE are pretty awful cartoons but that didn't stop me from buying the DVD sets and enjoying every minute of it. Sometimes you can enjoy things solely for nostalgia's sake.

[Hero 004]

I think the English dub is good, really good. Dragon Ball Z doesn't remain my favorite show and the story as a whole doesn't remain among my favorites because the dialogue and voice actors are awful. I think the English script is well written and I think the voice actors do a damn good job. There are changes to the script compared to the original Japanese, but that doesn't change the story line as a whole at all, and they aren't important aspects to my experience.
If they called Gohan a full Saiyan, that might have kept me from having my interest sparked. But not Gero being the ruler of the Red Ribbon Army. I didn't even give that a thought. I still watched him take revenge, create the androids, and Gohan kill Cell. Even if the story was changed completely, it still did a great job of making me obsess over it as a kid and stick with me.
I like the FUNimation dub because I think it's good, good is subjective to me. I also have no interest in Japanese Language television or reading subtitled anime. I like understanding dialogue, that's what triggers my emotions. I do occasionally switch the audio and study the subtitles from time to time, but it's not near as fun as listening to the english cast.

[Metalwario64]

One thing I have noticed, is that in all Japanese voice acting I've heard, the screams are all so over done and way to "dramatic." I mean, when ever someone gets angry they go "kkhhaAAAAAAAaaaaAAAA!!!!?????" and doesn't sound realistic at all... unless Japanese people by nature do that when they're pissed. For example in Slayers, Zelgadiss got so pissed that he just started screaming and passed out from the sheer stress. In the Japanese version he sounded like the above (and I sure as hell don't sound like that when I'm pissed!:P) and in the dub, he yelled like I or anybody else I know would.

Another glaring example is in the Street Fighter II Animated Movie, where Ryu is getting his fist crushed by Bison, and makes that same sound...

Do Japanese people really sound like that, or is it just a typical way of voice acting over there? I know it happens sometimes in Dragon Ball as well, if you want to make this relevant.

[Super Sonic]

Another glaring example is in the Street Fighter II Animated Movie, where Ryu is getting his fist crushed by Bison, and makes that same sound...

Couldn't watch that movie in Japanese due to name changes, and saw clip of final showdown having a happy pop song playing during it. One of the best final showdowns in an anime having a happy pop song.

[Metalwario64]

Another glaring example is in the Street Fighter II Animated Movie, where Ryu is getting his fist crushed by Bison, and makes that same sound...

Couldn't watch that movie in Japanese due to name changes, and saw clip of final showdown having a happy pop song playing during it. One of the best final showdowns in an anime having a happy pop song.

The names were changed in the US version, not the Japanese version.

Also, the Chun-li vs. Vega fight had a country song playing!

I liked a lot of the standard background music better though in the Japanese version, and my favorite piece is when Ken shows up for the final showdown with Bison. I wish I could find an OST for that movie!

[Kunzait_83]

b

[jda95]

Well then. Here's my say.

Like almost everyone here on this forum, I was introduced to the show through the English version back in it's heyday, and like every other eight year old at the time, I loved it. After the series ended, I didn't care for it at all. A few years ago, when my interest in the series was rekindled, I was given the chance to watch the series again, via the Dragon Boxes. I went headfirst into the Japanese version of the show, and through watching the show in this raw format, I began to become harshly critical of the FUNimation dub and the fandom surrounding. Sometimes I can understand why people continue to watch the show: for the nostalgia, and people like Innagadadavida (sorry if I mispelled that) who simply prefers the experience of a dub. But sometimes I just wonder 'WHY would people prefer this sub-standard version, while the original, superior version is right under their noses?'. It just confuses me. We've all seen the stupidities of the dub, why don't we just move on to something better? I sometimes really wonder what people see in the dub. I also hate the music.

I try to be nice to people though.

By the way, what was the change in Vegeta's motive for becoming a Super Saiyan?

[Thanos]

I hear ya, Neptune.


Honestly, I originally watched the DBZ FUNimation dub. But I remember playing some of the old DBZ Super Nintendo games, and thinking how awesome the voices were. Now, Japanese with English-Language Japanese subtitles is all I can stand to watch. It's just amazing how much more mature the show feels. Whenever I watched the dub (even uncut) I still felt like I was watching a kid's show.

But with the Japanese dialogue, it's so much more adult. They use bigger words (shallow, I know, but it helps), they explain things better, they're more blunt... I could go on. It always felt to me like in the dub, the dialogue felt like they were trying to write speeches.

It almost isn't fair. At the time when edited dubs were the only way to watch, what I was getting was a stripped-down, edited, distorted shell of DBZ. And what's more, is that I've never encountered a dub (even other anime that FUNimation dubs) with as much rape to the original content as DBZ.

Also, the voices are a huge deal to me. Every other character is voiced by Chris fuckin' Sabat. They all are always growling. Goku is voiced by a guy (if he was meant to sound like a full-grown man, he would've damn well been cast with a man), Vegeta doesn't sound like a real person, etc. For some reason, I have more patience with Japanese women doing children than American women, because American women tend to apply a stupid raspiness to their voice.


I'm not criticizing anyone for watching the dub. If you prefer it, that's great. Those are just my opinions I guess.

[MCDaveG]

Japanese-American collabo, animated Megaman, my favourite character since childhood, WTF!!!!

To be fair, both the American and Japanese Mega Man cartoons were pretty damn awful.

(also, SatAM Sonic is a much better series than Sonic X, the Americans can do those game adaptions right at times)

If you think Megaman NT Warrior, that's really bad, I don't like the games Battle Network either.
I watched Sonic when I was child, I liked that, but that Sonic undeground or how it's called isn't good too.

I'm not saying that americans are always bad, but if it's about adaptations and dubs of foreign anime, it's almost always bad. Japanese can do shit anime too, and there's a lot of them.

EDIT: But what am I talking about, that the dialogue is too much soft and children oriented sometimes, or have cheap humor or describes some events in different way.

PS: Megaman cartoon, is unfotunately in the same league as Pokemon, Digimon or Beyblade........

[eienmic]

Regarding SFII Animated Movie, I couldn't disagree more with the fans of the English Dub. I saw the Japanese original on a fansub VHS tape years before it was released domestically. I though the music was amazing and fit the scenes wonderfully. As a 11-12 year old with a $5 a week allowance, I saved up and bought the soundtrack for something like $40 from Gamecave.

That's what I know and that's the only way I'll ever accept it. I threw a fit when the domestic version was finally released with no subbed version available and all the great j-pop music replaced with Alice in Chains and Silverchair. I actually like their music but they absolutely do not belong in a Street Fighter anime.

I have a question that maybe some of the dub fans can answer. I'm being serious and I really want to know. Some of you have said that it's easier and more comfortable watching DBZ dubbed and you don't really care about the change in details because it's just a silly little anime (a silly anime that most of the members of this forum love with a passion).

To the film lovers in the audience, how do you watch foreign films? Movies like Crouching Tiger, Chungking Express, Seven Samurai, Masculine Feminine, the original Godzilla, Oldboy, etc.? Do you watch it dubbed and completely ignore all the amazing acting that went into making those films great just so that you can have an easier viewing experience? If a dub isn't available in your language do you give in to subs or just ignore the movie altogether and miss out on something that could be amazing?

I personally can't stand to watch anything dubbed as it detracts so much from the experience, whether it be a crappy lil' cartoon or a piece of cinematic greatness. Maybe it's just me being an elite-est prick. But all I know is, when I watched Cosi fan Tutte (an Italian opera) performed in English, I immediately headed for the ticket counter and got my money back. Whatever fucking genius decided this operatic masterpiece would be better in English should be fucking shot dead, over and over and over. Mozart is rolling over in his grave.