An honest question

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:13 am

With Godzilla movies, I have to watch in English. It makes them funny, similar with Speed Racer. Others you mentioned I haven't gotten around to watching aside from Crouching Tiger. Saw in theater, so saw it subbed.

Sn4tcH · Post by **Sn4tcH** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:40 pm

Look, no one's saying you can't have opinions, especially in a thread in a forum, where people are being asked why they have an unpopular opinion.

It's when the thread asks, "Why do you like the dub?" and a persons first response is "Well, I'll tell you why I don't like the dub!" that seems like snarky thing to do. The thread was five posts in, and someone's already trying to derail it. When someone posts "What do you think of dub fans?" or "Why don't you like the dub?" feel free to tell us all. Otherwise, and I know this is hard concept to grasp on the internet, STAY ON TOPIC.

Sorry for being a hypocrite and going off topic for sec, just things like this seem like a problem with common etiquette.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:52 pm

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:55 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Sn4tcH wrote:Look, no one's saying you can't have opinions, especially in a thread in a forum, where people are being asked why they have an unpopular opinion.

It's when the thread asks, "Why do you like the dub?" and a persons first response is "Well, I'll tell you why I don't like the dub!" that seems like snarky thing to do. The thread was five posts in, and someone's already trying to derail it. When someone posts "What do you think of dub fans?" or "Why don't you like the dub?" feel free to tell us all. Otherwise, and I know this is hard concept to grasp on the internet, STAY ON TOPIC.

Sorry for being a hypocrite and going off topic for sec, just things like this seem like a problem with common etiquette.
If (and only if) the above response was meant for my post, then I was only responding to a specific portion of what Innagadadavida posted (where he asked, perhaps rhetorically, "why do people who continue to criticize the dub do so?"). Everything I wrote was in answer to that, not Neptune’s original question.

Even still, if it’s the kind of thing that’s gonna derail this thread, I’ll be more than happy to erase it, and just send it to him as a PM or something.

My apologies, I probably should’ve just stayed out of this thread anyhow since the crux if it’s topic really doesn’t apply to someone like me.

I think it's perfectly relevant to the discussion.

Anonymous Friend · Post by **Anonymous Friend** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:36 pm

eienmic wrote:Regarding SFII Animated Movie, I couldn't disagree more with the fans of the English Dub. I saw the Japanese original on a fansub VHS tape years before it was released domestically. I though the music was amazing and fit the scenes wonderfully. As a 11-12 year old with a $5 a week allowance, I saved up and bought the soundtrack for something like $40 from Gamecave.

That's what I know and that's the only way I'll ever accept it. I threw a fit when the domestic version was finally released with no subbed version available and all the great j-pop music replaced with Alice in Chains and Silverchair. I actually like their music but they absolutely do not belong in a Street Fighter anime.

I bought the DVD recently and it's one of those two sides abominations and wanted to compare the two and even though I can see both fitting, I totally prefer the dub's music. The differences can affect the mood of the of the scenes. The original's music is too "upbeat" for what's happening, where as the rock music convey's that "we're fighting now but this is serious stuff and when things get serious you fight." Not to mention that Street Fighter is all about fighting.

eienmic wrote:I have a question that maybe some of the dub fans can answer. I'm being serious and I really want to know. Some of you have said that it's easier and more comfortable watching DBZ dubbed and you don't really care about the change in details because it's just a silly little anime (a silly anime that most of the members of this forum love with a passion).

To the film lovers in the audience, how do you watch foreign films? Movies like Crouching Tiger, Chungking Express, Seven Samurai, Masculine Feminine, the original Godzilla, Oldboy, etc.? Do you watch it dubbed and completely ignore all the amazing acting that went into making those films great just so that you can have an easier viewing experience? If a dub isn't available in your language do you give in to subs or just ignore the movie altogether and miss out on something that could be amazing?

I personally can't stand to watch anything dubbed as it detracts so much from the experience, whether it be a crappy lil' cartoon or a piece of cinematic greatness. Maybe it's just me being an elite-est prick. But all I know is, when I watched Cosi fan Tutte (an Italian opera) performed in English, I immediately headed for the ticket counter and got my money back. Whatever fucking genius decided this operatic masterpiece would be better in English should be fucking shot dead, over and over and over. Mozart is rolling over in his grave.

When it comes to foriegn films, i have no problem watching them in their original forms with subtitles. In fact, the first time I saw Kung-fu Hustle was in the theaters and subbed. I didn't expect it but I watched it and instantly fell in love with it. I think I may have also watched part of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and Advent Children and films on IFC subbed as we'll.

That being said, I prefer to watch them in my own audio langauge. I recently found a program to convert DVD files to dvix and avi. I spent about ten minutes trying to decide if I wanted an english audio version or a japanese language with english subtitles of Curse of the Golden Flower. At one point I was gonna just do both, but felt that it would be a waste of space and just got the english version.

Sn4tcH · Post by **Sn4tcH** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:18 pm

eienmic wrote:To the film lovers in the audience, how do you watch foreign films? Movies like Crouching Tiger, Chungking Express, Seven Samurai, Masculine Feminine, the original Godzilla, Oldboy, etc.? Do you watch it dubbed and completely ignore all the amazing acting that went into making those films great just so that you can have an easier viewing experience? If a dub isn't available in your language do you give in to subs or just ignore the movie altogether and miss out on something that could be amazing?

There's a strong difference between film and anime, IMO. Actors can do a lot more for a script than a piece of animation. When a real person is not speaking the language that they are supposed to be speaking, it is obvious and it detracts from the viewing (or enhances in the case of Godzilla).

The amount of detail that goes into a mouths movement in most anime can best be described as "NOM NOM NOM NOM". It's just open and close for sound, no real vowel movements or anything. I watch Akira in sub form because of this very reason. Even though Akira has an EXCELLENT dub, the animation they did on the mouths only fits the Japanese words. When watching it dubbed it looks wrong, much like a film looks wrong. DBZ on the other hand looks fine because they cared so little about animating the mouth movement, you could toss just about anything into the script and it would look right still...

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:26 pm

That was my issue with Advent Children. Seems they did like Akira and US cartoons with recording first, then animated. Mouths looking a little funny is my only gripe with its dub. Then again I haven't gotten around to watching the sub yet, but stilll...

MCDaveG · Post by **MCDaveG** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:19 am

then i consider myself lucky, because most of old japanese movies (Akira Kurosawa's and Godzilla series for example) are with subs in czech...... DVD's included.....
I saw lot of Godzilla movies on RTL II and it's pretty weird when japanese people are talking German

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRSD9i6U4kw

majinboogc · Post by **majinboogc** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:09 am

I started with the Ocean dub way back when the second or third season began. It was cool and it got me hooked but it did not progress beyond the Ginyu fight.

Years passed and my BFFF calls me to ask if Trunks was on Mexican TV. I tuned in and wow... I could not go back to watching the English dub. The script was much more serious, the music epic. There was no competition. The first episode I saw was when Trunks defeats Freeza.

That isn't to say that the Mexican dub isn't perfect, there is the infamous Ginyu "moment of pure happiness" amongst other things but they are rare.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:37 pm

As far as the voices go, I have no real preference between the Japanese and Funi dubs. The performances are better in the Japanese version, but I like the actual voices more in the Funi version (overall). There's no voice in the Funi version that I can't stand (although their strange policy of giving every background character a weird accent is slightly annoying), whereas there's a couple in the Japanese version that I hate. Fat Buu's voice is the prime example. Funi over did it a bit with him, but his Japanese voice just doesn't suit him at all, and it's pretty boring. It's kind of the same with Freeza. His Japanese voice just sounds really generic to me. Again, the acting is great, just the voice is dull.

If the Funi actors could give performances as good as the Japanese cast, but with their own voices, it'd be perfect for me.

The script changes I don't really care about. Just a bit of sillyness really, like Blue's long lost brother Samuel. Stuff like is obviously a change that it's actually funny, so I enjoy it.

The only thing that actually annoys me about the dub is the music, because it never stops. And in some of the films and specials it's just techno/pop/rock tracks in the background, which feels incredibly lazy and cheap. It ends up looking like an amateurish AMV.

Brakus · Post by **Brakus** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:39 am

I have come to appreciate both the English (FUNi) dub as well as the original Japanese dub of the show. (Reminder: ALL animation is dubbed, whether pre-lay or ADR.) I appreciate the English (FUNi) dub even more now that they've done an English dub w/the Japanese BGM. Hearing it in English with the original music actually gives me a closer perspective on how the Japanese watched the show. And for the most part, I like everybody's voices on the FUNi dub, with the possible exception of Linda Young's take on Freeza.

I kinda find it funny that some people on this forum seem to put their Japanese seiyuu on some kind of worship pedestal for all to see. Oh, yeah, they've voiced some of the most iconic characters ever, and some of them are extremely cool in real life. (Ryuusei Nakao voiced Yakko and Freeza, how's that for extremely cool?) But I think it's kind of unfair to think that the Japanese acted these parts out so much better than the English counterparts, considering that very few of us know enough Japanese to watch a show without subtitles. You'd be surprised to find out which shows I actually can't stand to watch in Japanese, even though they put forth what seem to be great efforts. Also, like in the U.S., most voice actors over in Japan are just like most voice actors here in the U.S. -- they may voice lots of memorable characters, but they are also regular Joes and Janes with regular jobs, because voice acting pays just as little in Japan as it does in the states (for the most part). Not everybody can be as famous as Mazako Nozawa or Scott McNeil (for example)....

In general, regardless of the show or cast, you like to associate the one you heard first as your favorite cast or version. There are exceptions, such as the superior FUNi version of One Piece over the 4Kids version, but for the most part, the first cast that you first heard the show will most likely be your personal favorite. Lord knows that this extends to other shows as well (Saiyuki, anyone? ADV's cast blows away Bang Zoom/Geneon's cast out of the water IMO, but then I heard their dub first.) and I can understand why some people prefer the Ocean dub over the FUNi dub of DBZ, because they heard the Ocean dub first.

I hope this casts a little light on my preferences for watching the dub of DBZ, and maybe other's preferences as well.

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:22 am

Brakus wrote:I kinda find it funny that some people on this forum seem to put their Japanese seiyuu on some kind of worship pedestal for all to see. Oh, yeah, they've voiced some of the most iconic characters ever, and some of them are extremely cool in real life. (Ryuusei Nakao voiced Yakko and Freeza, how's that for extremely cool?) But I think it's kind of unfair to think that the Japanese acted these parts out so much better than the English counterparts, considering that very few of us know enough Japanese to watch a show without subtitles. You'd be surprised to find out which shows I actually can't stand to watch in Japanese, even though they put forth what seem to be great efforts. Also, like in the U.S., most voice actors over in Japan are just like most voice actors here in the U.S. -- they may voice lots of memorable characters, but they are also regular Joes and Janes with regular jobs, because voice acting pays just as little in Japan as it does in the states (for the most part). Not everybody can be as famous as Mazako Nozawa or Scott McNeil (for example)....

You'll find that on a lot of forums and with a lot of different anime, though. It just depends on how well which dub is received. For example, a lot of "casual" (read: dub) fans will fight tooth and nail over how awesome they think the FUNi cast is or the Ocean cast is. Here, the majority of us hold the Japanese cast in high esteem. It's not just us and it's not just the Japanese version watchers.

On the flipside, you've got other shows where the dub is good and everyone gets along no matter how they prefer to watch it. For example, Cowboy Bebop. It has an excellent dub that's very faithful to the original and, even when voices don't exactly mimic their Japanese counterparts, the spirit and attitude is still conveyed so well in English that a lot of Bebop fans I've met don't care which version they watch.

No offense to the current dub cast of Dragonball Z, but maybe if FUNi had initially dubbed the show more in the spirit and tone of the original Japanese version (like the Pioneer releases of the first three DBZ movies) then we wouldn't be having this reoccurring "subbie" and "dubbie" talk going on. Sure, we could very easily prefer one version over the other, but the English version would have been simply an English version and not a reversioning that has a completely different tone and take on the animation you're watching and we could all be talking about the same thing without ever having to stop and say, "Wait. That's what you're talking about? Well, in the version I watch, it's this was and not that way."

So, really, I think it's the differences that the American versions of DBZ have that make us hold one cast or another in such a high regard. If we had gotten a 100% consistent, competent, and decently-experienced cast from Day 1, the Japanese music from Day 1, and writers who weren't ad-libbing a bunch of corny jokes in and mis-translating the names and roles of certain key characters (Dr. Gero) and moments (Vegeta attaining Super Saiyan) from Day 1, then we wouldn't have this much of a problem. People could still prefer the sub or dub, but we could still be talking about the same thing without a problem no matter which you preferred.

Just like Cowboy Bebop.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:03 am

Brakus wrote:Also, like in the U.S., most voice actors over in Japan are just like most voice actors here in the U.S. -- they may voice lots of memorable characters, but they are also regular Joes and Janes with regular jobs, because voice acting pays just as little in Japan as it does in the states (for the most part). Not everybody can be as famous as Mazako Nozawa or Scott McNeil (for example)....

To be fair, a good portion of the DB cast *are* (and already were) the veterans of the industry. Talking about Masako Nozawa (Galaxy Express 999) and Toshio Furukawa (Urusei Yatsura) would almost be like talking about someone like Don Messick or (more recently) Billy West over here. These particular people aren't the every-day Joe Schmoes off the street (a la our librarians, french horn players, improv actors, etc... no matter how talented you deem them as voice actors they may have become later on).

With that in mind, we expected crazy-good performances out of them, and in nearly every single instance, they delivered ten-fold.

I mean, Hell... Norio Wakamoto has (from what I'm able to gather from my frightening dives into the rest of the internet) has become almost a joke of himself due to his awesome voice acting.

Vashkey · Post by **Vashkey** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:52 pm

I first watched the Dragon Ball Z dub back when I was eleven years old. So yeah, I thought it was awesome back then. And As I got older I thought of it more nostalgically like a lot of people in their thirties view the Ninja Turtles and people from my generation view Pokemon. Sure it's not terribly intelligent, but I loved it as a kid and look back at those memories fondly.

I actually didn't know the Japanese version of Dragon Ball was significantly different till a year or two ago. I don't suspect this sort of stuff every time I approach a product. And after seeing half the people on the internet telling me that every dub in existence is terrible you kind of just tune it out. Not till I switched to the Japanese audio track and put in the subtitles out of curiosity when I got the box sets did I even find out about the changes between the original and the dub.

I've come to appreciate the Japanese version and now I can't even watch the show without at least having the original Japanese music playing. Still, I'll never forget how much fun I had with the dub as a kid.

For the record though, I'm not sure why people made a big deal about the edited version that aired on television. With out being edited it would have never aired at a time slot that kids would actually be able to watch and like it or not it is a show intended for kids. You can still purchase the series uncut, so whats the big deal?

Vashkey · Post by **Vashkey** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:07 pm

majinboogc wrote:
That isn't to say that the Mexican dub isn't perfect, there is the infamous Ginyu "moment of pure happiness" amongst other things but they are rare.

Oh my god... This is the funniest thing I've seen on the internet in months at least. I could not stop laughing and I'm still laughing a little.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:57 pm

Kendamu wrote:On the flipside, you've got other shows where the dub is good and everyone gets along no matter how they prefer to watch it. For example, Cowboy Bebop. It has an excellent dub that's very faithful to the original and, even when voices don't exactly mimic their Japanese counterparts, the spirit and attitude is still conveyed so well in English that a lot of Bebop fans I've met don't care which version they watch.

Oh, I do.

VegettoEX wrote:I mean, Hell... Norio Wakamoto has (from what I'm able to gather from my frightening dives into the rest of the internet) has become almost a joke of himself due to his awesome voice acting.

... and he's Vicious in Cowboy Bebop. One more reason to care.

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:54 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Kendamu wrote:On the flipside, you've got other shows where the dub is good and everyone gets along no matter how they prefer to watch it. For example, Cowboy Bebop. It has an excellent dub that's very faithful to the original and, even when voices don't exactly mimic their Japanese counterparts, the spirit and attitude is still conveyed so well in English that a lot of Bebop fans I've met don't care which version they watch.
Oh, I do.

VegettoEX wrote:I mean, Hell... Norio Wakamoto has (from what I'm able to gather from my frightening dives into the rest of the internet) has become almost a joke of himself due to his awesome voice acting.
... and he's Vicious in Cowboy Bebop. One more reason to care.

But you're just one. My point still stand that I've met many who don't care. A lot of those people include the people I met in line while waiting to watch "Knokcin' on Heaven's Door" in a theater.

Brakus · Post by **Brakus** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:14 pm

Kendamu wrote:Here, the majority of us hold the Japanese cast in high esteem. It's not just us and it's not just the Japanese version watchers.

I give all kinds of kudos to the Japanese cast. I'm sure lots of people around the world have enjoyed them. Thankfully I don't see the extreme degree of worshipness on this forum that other people seem to have on certain voice actors of whatever language. (I, for one, am glad that Vic Mignogna only voices Broly in the movies.)

On the flipside, you've got other shows where the dub is good and everyone gets along no matter how they prefer to watch it. For example, Cowboy Bebop. It has an excellent dub that's very faithful to the original and, even when voices don't exactly mimic their Japanese counterparts, the spirit and attitude is still conveyed so well in English that a lot of Bebop fans I've met don't care which version they watch.

There's numerous examples where the dub is good as well as the Japanese. Bebop is one example. Other personal examples for me would include FLCL and Fullmetal Alchemist. However, Cowboy Bebop, to my knowledge, was never intended to be a kids' show to begin with; it only aired late at night in Japan the first time around. This is why Bandai could be more faithful to the original product for the English version.

No offense to the current dub cast of Dragonball Z, but maybe if FUNi had initially dubbed the show more in the spirit and tone of the original Japanese version (like the Pioneer releases of the first three DBZ movies) then we wouldn't be having this reoccurring "subbie" and "dubbie" talk going on.

I can see how that might be a sticking point for them staying more faithful to the original Japanese version. Still, FUNi was smart to do what they did to Z in order to get it on TV and expose it to millions of children over several years. Also, I don't like how some people have to insist that the English dub sound exactly like the Japanese dub. The English voice actors (or other-language voice actors, for that matter) should not be mimicking the Japanese version right down to the voice inflections. Each language should be allowed to have its own take on the cast.

Sure, we could very easily prefer one version over the other, but the English version would have been simply an English version and not a reversioning that has a completely different tone and take on the animation you're watching and we could all be talking about the same thing without ever having to stop and say, "Wait. That's what you're talking about? Well, in the version I watch, it's this was and not that way."

As I said before, FUNi did a smart thing by localizing it to the U.S. audience to a slight degree (in the music changes and dialogue changes for broadcast). However, there's a delicate balancing act between localizing for a particular audience and leaving things so literally translated that no one would get the reference. After all, Dragon Ball / Z / GT is a kids' show. You can see how adults and older children can appreciate and enjoy the show, but when you boil it all down, it's still a kids' show. I may disagree with some of the changes that occurred to DBZ when it was first broadcast, but they had to be done in order to reach more of an audience besides the hardcores and the regular anime watchers.

Of course, now that the initial U.S. audience is much older and well into their late teens and early twenties, they have the opportunity with the Dragon Box (and to a lesser degree the Season Box sets) to experience the show "the way it was meant to be seen", which would most likely be in the original Japanese. Win-win all around, don't you think?

Brakus · Post by **Brakus** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:16 pm

VegettoEX wrote: To be fair, a good portion of the DB cast *are* (and already were) the veterans of the industry. Talking about Masako Nozawa (Galaxy Express 999) and Toshio Furukawa (Urusei Yatsura) would almost be like talking about someone like Don Messick or (more recently) Billy West over here. These particular people aren't the every-day Joe Schmoes off the street (a la our librarians, french horn players, improv actors, etc... no matter how talented you deem them as voice actors they may have become later on).

With that in mind, we expected crazy-good performances out of them, and in nearly every single instance, they delivered ten-fold.

I can understand where a lot of you folks are coming from, considering that you grew up listening to the Japanese voice actors first. And I definitely concur that lots of people that worked on DBZ are fine actors in their own right. Many of these actors in Japan are as prolific as some of the actors here stateside. I have to admit that I put some of my own personal favorites on my own little pedestal as well.

Honestly, even though I've preferred Chris Sabat's take on Vegeta than Brian Drummond's take, I've come to enjoy the Japanese version of Vegeta as well... he gives some degree of humanity and character development to the character that was only glossed over at times in the English version. In the scene where Vegeta is showering at Bulma's after coming back to Earth, I've always preferred the wistful Japanese Vegeta pining for Kakkarot to come back,as opposed to the uppity English Vegeta puzzling over the enigmatic female species. There's lots more of examples for Vegeta to show more of his character-building side in the Japanese version.

I believe that Masako Nozawa's Goku is cute and iconic, even though that I do have to suspend some disbelief to get past the high-pitched adult Goku voice from Nozawa-sama. But I also believe that Sean Schemmel does fine as adult Goku as well, and that most people in the States will associaate Goku with Sean Schemmel than Masako Nozawa, if only that Sean's voice reflects Goku having gotten older with the voice changing.

By no means am I saying that one version is superior over the other, although I have my preferences.

On that subject, at Otakon I did get the soundrop keychain with the Kame-Sen'in kanji on the button. It's the one with Masako Nozawa's Goku saying "Kamehameha" syllable by syllable. It's the cutest.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:25 pm

Just want to say--in absolute hindsight--FUNimation's choices have all been the correct one. As painful as the ride has been, aren't we all for the most part pretty happy? As not just a DB fan, but a One Piece fan, I am very happy. I've got my 4:3 DragonBall coming. It'll have actors I'm all to familiar with now.

We're--for the most part--now cool.