What do you think would have been the best ending point?

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:07 pm

Cell saga, the Boo saga is ridiculous and it's clear Toriyama just didn't give a fuck by that time.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:08 pm

NeptuneKai wrote:...it's clear Toriyama just didn't give a fuck by that time.

I already asked but I will ask again- did Toriyama ever said he was tired of Dragonball by the Majin Buu saga?

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:09 pm

NeptuneKai wrote:Cell saga, the Boo saga is ridiculous and it's clear Toriyama just didn't give a fuck by that time.

That made it better though. The Cell saga was just too serious for it's own good. It got boring. The Buu saga was a breath of fresh air after that.

Super Ghost Kamikaze · Post by **Super Ghost Kamikaze** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:09 pm

Should have ended after the 21st Budokai. The series would have been short, fun, and amazing. It would have been an excellent adventure that evolved into a martial arts story, and one that ended before Goku was some unrivaled God that always came in to save the day. It was have ended on Goku losing, but also on the note that he was bound to be the best if he worked hard and trained to be even stronger.

Chrono Trigger · Post by **Chrono Trigger** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:13 pm

NeptuneKai wrote:Cell saga, the Boo saga is ridiculous and it's clear Toriyama just didn't give a fuck by that time.

I always wonder if this is how people felt about the Boo saga when it was still airing back in the day or if this is just how some people feel now in hindsight. Anyways I think the best place to end Dragon Ball was in the Boo saga. Exactly the way it happened.

Saiyavenger2941 · Post by **Saiyavenger2941** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:17 pm

Chrono Trigger wrote:Exactly the way it happened.

Except with Gohan instead of Goku.

Dr. Casey · Post by **Dr. Casey** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:20 pm

The birth of Pan.

XD

Chrono Trigger wrote:I always wonder if this is how people felt about the Boo saga when it was still airing back in the day or if this is just how some people feel now in hindsight.

*does a forum search for the words 'newsgroups'*

Ah, here we go. Some insight from Kunzait.

Speaking of which, I just remembered another one; Dabura early in the Buu saga. I wasn’t surprised that he got killed per se; just that it was so very early on. I remember expecting him to last way longer and become a major player in the then-new storyline. There was a definite sense of “where the hell is Toriyama going with this?” in a lot of the manga newsgroup discussions following each new post-Cell Game DB chapter, particularly early on when it was just Saiyaman/Goten/Videl.

The early Saiyaman chapters were such a drastic departure from the previous arcs; years and years of storyline had been neatly tied up after the Cell Game, and there was this incredibly fun sense of discovery and “anything can happen now/the story can go anywhere” as well as lots of rampant speculation on the old manga newsgroups as the Buu storyline was slowly developed and revealed chapter by chapter piecemeal with puzzling new cryptic elements thrown into the mix of what appeared to be a return to the old Budokai arcs; like the mysterious “M” insignia, the weird/cool looking mowhawked figure and his apparent bodyguard, Piccolo’s horrified reaction to them, etc.

Dunno about Japan, but it sounds like the English fanbase found it to be interesting and a lot of fun. :)

Saiyavenger2941 · Post by **Saiyavenger2941** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:23 pm

What can I say? When I ship, I ship HARDCORE.

And yes. The Saiyaman Arc was godly. Easily my favorite. Wait. What's with the angry stares and pitchforks, guys?

jda95 · Post by **jda95** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:24 pm

The Buu Saga as a whole has always been my favorite saga. I never really felt that it was particularly messy, but after revisiting it a few times I have realized that it gets off to quite an interesting start, with Toriyama trying to approach the series from a new angle with Saiyaman and stuff.

I also love Goten.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:24 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:
The birth of Pan.
XD

Chrono Trigger wrote:I always wonder if this is how people felt about the Boo saga when it was still airing back in the day or if this is just how some people feel now in hindsight.
*does a forum search for the words 'newsgroups'*

Ah, here we go. Some insight from Kunzait.

Speaking of which, I just remembered another one; Dabura early in the Buu saga. I wasn’t surprised that he got killed per se; just that it was so very early on. I remember expecting him to last way longer and become a major player in the then-new storyline. There was a definite sense of “where the hell is Toriyama going with this?” in a lot of the manga newsgroup discussions following each new post-Cell Game DB chapter, particularly early on when it was just Saiyaman/Goten/Videl.

The early Saiyaman chapters were such a drastic departure from the previous arcs; years and years of storyline had been neatly tied up after the Cell Game, and there was this incredibly fun sense of discovery and “anything can happen now/the story can go anywhere” as well as lots of rampant speculation on the old manga newsgroups as the Buu storyline was slowly developed and revealed chapter by chapter piecemeal with puzzling new cryptic elements thrown into the mix of what appeared to be a return to the old Budokai arcs; like the mysterious “M” insignia, the weird/cool looking mowhawked figure and his apparent bodyguard, Piccolo’s horrified reaction to them, etc.

Dunno about Japan, but it sounds like the English fanbase found it to be interesting and a lot of fun.

Yeah, that's pretty much what we of the One Piece/Naruto generation are doing every week now. If it's a Monday or Tuesday it's a mad-dash to the spoiler sites for spoilers out of the new JUMP (like the past few weeks for One Piece and Naruto even much more so).

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:25 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:Speaking of which, I just remembered another one; Dabura early in the Buu saga. I wasn’t surprised that he got killed per se; just that it was so very early on. I remember expecting him to last way longer and become a major player in the then-new storyline. There was a definite sense of “where the hell is Toriyama going with this?” in a lot of the manga newsgroup discussions following each new post-Cell Game DB chapter, particularly early on when it was just Saiyaman/Goten/Videl.

That's how the Cell saga feels to me. First #19 and #20 are built up to be major players, but they're dismissed easily and #16, #17 and #18 come along. They generally just fart around not doing much and not showing much interest in anything, and then Cell pops up from the future... It just felt a mess.

In the Buu saga it didn't matter much because the fun carried it through the murky patches, but in the Cell saga it was just a bore.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:28 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:Speaking of which, I just remembered another one; Dabura early in the Buu saga. I wasn’t surprised that he got killed per se; just that it was so very early on. I remember expecting him to last way longer and become a major player in the then-new storyline. There was a definite sense of “where the hell is Toriyama going with this?” in a lot of the manga newsgroup discussions following each new post-Cell Game DB chapter, particularly early on when it was just Saiyaman/Goten/Videl.

I love the beginning of the Majin Buu saga but after Majin Buu becomes good the saga actually decreased in quality until the final fight.
Too much power-ups, absorptions and deaths. It felt short while it isn't.

Saiyavenger2941 · Post by **Saiyavenger2941** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:30 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote:
Dr. Casey wrote:Speaking of which, I just remembered another one; Dabura early in the Buu saga. I wasn’t surprised that he got killed per se; just that it was so very early on. I remember expecting him to last way longer and become a major player in the then-new storyline. There was a definite sense of “where the hell is Toriyama going with this?” in a lot of the manga newsgroup discussions following each new post-Cell Game DB chapter, particularly early on when it was just Saiyaman/Goten/Videl.

I love the beginning of the Majin Buu saga but after Majin Buu becomes good the saga actually decreased in quality until the final fight.
Too much power-ups, absorptions and deaths. It felt short while it isn't.

Blame the fans and the editors for that.

"Gohan being the final hero of the series that was based around him? FUCK THAT NOISE GIVE US GOKU"

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:32 pm

Wait! Dragonball is based on Goku, not Gohan.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:32 pm

Saiyavenger2941 wrote:
Senzu_Bean wrote:
Dr. Casey wrote:Speaking of which, I just remembered another one; Dabura early in the Buu saga. I wasn’t surprised that he got killed per se; just that it was so very early on. I remember expecting him to last way longer and become a major player in the then-new storyline. There was a definite sense of “where the hell is Toriyama going with this?” in a lot of the manga newsgroup discussions following each new post-Cell Game DB chapter, particularly early on when it was just Saiyaman/Goten/Videl.

I love the beginning of the Majin Buu saga but after Majin Buu becomes good the saga actually decreased in quality until the final fight.
Too much power-ups, absorptions and deaths. It felt short while it isn't.

Blame the fans and the editors for that.

"Gohan being the final hero of the series that was based around him? FUCK THAT NOISE GIVE US GOKU"

It was Toriyama's decision to do that.

And I feel the Buu saga started to drop when Buu absorbed Gotenks, and it never really picked up after that.

Saiyavenger2941 · Post by **Saiyavenger2941** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:33 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote:Wait! Dragonball is based on Goku, not Gohan.

From my understanding, Z was supposed to be based around Gohan.

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:58 pm

I think the story should have ended at cell. I felt like there was a lot of closure. Vegeta, wasn't exactly nice but he except Earth as his home. Not only that but he came to terms with the Sons being stronger than him(without having that,"ok I give up mentality").

As for Gohan, you see a lot of growth. He went from being this whiny 4 year old to the hero of earth. There was that sort of passing the torch feeling. We spent all of Dragonball and Dragonball Z seeing Goku grow and now here stands his son the savior of earth. It was quiet an epic ending, except the Buu saga turned him weak and annoying.

Plus by the cell saga, yes the other fighters were getting surpassed but it wasn't like they were disregarded. They all helped with fighting the androids, they all were there at the cell games, Piccolo was a match for 17 and Tien held off cell. Everyone seemed to have a role at some time or another.

To me the Buu saga felt forced. Yes, some parts were fun but there was better closer at the end of the Cell saga to me.

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:07 pm

Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:Should have ended after the 21st Budokai. The series would have been short, fun, and amazing. It would have been an excellent adventure that evolved into a martial arts story, and one that ended before Goku was some unrivaled God that always came in to save the day. It was have ended on Goku losing, but also on the note that he was bound to be the best if he worked hard and trained to be even stronger.

When I'm like that about a story, I just try to forget that the part after where I think it should end exists. For example, I don't take Dragonball GT into account. Another example would be how I think Rocky III should've been the last Rocky movie. General stuff like that.

B · Post by B » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:08 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote:
NeptuneKai wrote:...it's clear Toriyama just didn't give a fuck by that time.
I already asked but I will ask again- did Toriyama ever said he was tired of Dragonball by the Majin Buu saga?

That's why he used the qualifier "it's clear." He never has and never will. I wonder /why/ Toriyama will never give a clear answer on this... perhaps he doesn't care...?

I agree with ending it at the Piccolo arc. The humans don't end up being fodder(Well... Yamcha, a little, but it gets palyed up more in the adult-era), the sense of adventure stays consistent, and a great buildup to Goku finally walking home a champion.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:18 pm

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:I think the story should have ended at cell. I felt like there was a lot of closure. Vegeta, wasn't exactly nice but he except Earth as his home. Not only that but he came to terms with the Sons being stronger than him(without having that,"ok I give up mentality").

As for Gohan, you see a lot of growth. He went from being this whiny 4 year old to the hero of earth. There was that sort of passing the torch feeling. We spent all of Dragonball and Dragonball Z seeing Goku grow and now here stands his son the savior of earth. It was quiet an epic ending, except the Buu saga turned him weak and annoying.

Stuff like this always confuses me. I know everyone has their opinion, I'm just baffled at how people can look at Gohan during the Cell games and Gohan during the Buu saga and call the Buu saga version annoying, or weak. Gohan in the Buu saga was how he should have been in the Cell saga; willing to stand and fight whether he thought he could win or not, because it was better to try. To at least do something, anything.

That's why the Cell games piss me off. Gohan's just terrible. He gives up. He freakin' gives up. Cell says "I'm going to kill you and everyone you love and destroy the world", and Gohan just gives up. Until, of course, Goku has to step in to give him a pep talk. That's why I'd hate for that to be the ending. The basic message of the Cell saga is that everything turns out okay as long as Goku's there, and at the end he's gone.