What do you think would have been the best ending point?

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

Ah ha. Touché. I should've specified then that the “Goku’s decision” factor would only be applicable to the story as it stands now (which it is). In the hypothetical scenario with the Piccolo, Saichourou and both sets of Dragon Balls gone, it’d be just a matter of Gohan and Bulma having no choice but to leave the planet without Goku via his ship, since his fight with Freeza was taking too long for them to be able to wait for him and make it off alive themselves (which it was). That does completely alter the dynamic of Goku dying on Namek though (something which I did bear in mind the last time this discussion came up, but forgot about this time around).

Thanks for the correction though.

I guess that would still make things a bit more noble for Goku, but I really wouldn't want him to go out like that to be honest.

[Kunzait_83]

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[SparkyPantsMcGee]

How often does a popular Shônen not have a happy ending?

Two notable examples off the top of my head;

Personally, I usally like the shock, not so happy endings myself. However think dragonball, think back to everything before this point...to have Goku and everyone else just die would be the worst way to finish off the series. Its way out of character to me. It wouldn't be dragonball.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

I guess that would still make things a bit more noble for Goku, but I really wouldn't want him to go out like that to be honest.

Going out like what? Choosing to fight, rather than to simply win by default? To struggle for the dignity of his friend's death? Super Saiyan Goku at the end of the Freeza arc is as noble as Goku is. Considering it's Goku we are talking about, it's actually very much perfect. Goku dies because he chose to fight, but he also dies the victor. He got his vengeance, AND he was proven to be the strongest in the galaxy. It brings the "Goku is an ALIEN?!" plot to a neat close and ties up all the loose ends. It just works.

[jjgp1112]

I guess that would still make things a bit more noble for Goku, but I really wouldn't want him to go out like that to be honest.

Going out like what? Choosing to fight, rather than to simply win by default? To struggle for the dignity of his friend's death? Super Saiyan Goku at the end of the Freeza arc is as noble as Goku is. Considering it's Goku we are talking about, it's actually very much perfect. Goku dies because he chose to fight, but he also dies the victor. He got his vengeance, AND he was proven to be the strongest in the galaxy. It brings the "Goku is an ALIEN?!" plot to a neat close and ties up all the loose ends. It just works.

Yeah, let's just pretend that he wasn't frantically looking for a ship and swearing at the top of his lungs when the planet exploded.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Yeah, let's just pretend that he wasn't frantically looking for a ship and swearing at the top of his lungs when the planet exploded.

That is actually an option. I'm not sure if Toriyama had been told that Jump wanted more or what exactly Toriyama knew when making that scene near the very end of the arc, but we could say that the Freeza arc works extremely well as an ending if we cut out a few panels.

We also could say that Goku made a choice. A choice that came with a risk as a consequence. He took that chance, and didn't quite make it. I'd say not only is it noble, but it gives PURPOSE to the decision in the first place. If what he decided to do does NOT give a tangible consequence, why have him making that choice at all?

[Amigo Ten]

I guess that would still make things a bit more noble for Goku, but I really wouldn't want him to go out like that to be honest.

Going out like what? Choosing to fight, rather than to simply win by default? To struggle for the dignity of his friend's death? Super Saiyan Goku at the end of the Freeza arc is as noble as Goku is. Considering it's Goku we are talking about, it's actually very much perfect. Goku dies because he chose to fight, but he also dies the victor. He got his vengeance, AND he was proven to be the strongest in the galaxy. It brings the "Goku is an ALIEN?!" plot to a neat close and ties up all the loose ends. It just works.

It doesn't work because Goku dies trying to escape. He chose to stay and fight, but by no means was he willing to die because of that choice. He believed he would win and escape. To have him die like that and then end the series would be a massive downer and just inappropriate.

[jjgp1112]

But he was incredibly confident in himself. He told Frieza numerous times that he'd escape and survive.

[Amigo Ten]

Yeah, let's just pretend that he wasn't frantically looking for a ship and swearing at the top of his lungs when the planet exploded.

That is actually an option. I'm not sure if Toriyama had been told that Jump wanted more or what exactly Toriyama knew when making that scene near the very end of the arc, but we could say that the Freeza arc works extremely well as an ending if we cut out a few panels.

I think it's extremely unlikely that Toriyama thought Goku would be staying dead when he was writing those last scenes.

Goku is revealed to alive one chapter after he supposedly dies, and I find it hard to believe a big change would be made that late. That would imply that Toriyama wrote and drew Goku dying thinking he would stay dead, and was going to write a few closing chapters next, and that either Jump was completely unaware he was planning this, or they knew and then at the very last minute changed their minds and called him and said "Hey, keep it going for few more years".

[jjgp1112]

Yeah, let's just pretend that he wasn't frantically looking for a ship and swearing at the top of his lungs when the planet exploded.

That is actually an option. I'm not sure if Toriyama had been told that Jump wanted more or what exactly Toriyama knew when making that scene near the very end of the arc, but we could say that the Freeza arc works extremely well as an ending if we cut out a few panels.

I think it's extremely unlikely that Toriyama thought Goku would be staying dead when he was writing those last scenes.

Goku is revealed to alive one chapter after he supposedly dies, and I find it hard to believe a big change would be made that late. That would imply that Toriyama wrote and drew Goku dying thinking he would stay dead, and was going to write a few closing chapters next, and that either Jump was completely unaware he was planning this, or they knew and then at the very last minute changed their minds and called him and said "Hey, keep it going for few more years".

Either that, or he planned on having him die and find some way to keep it going. I think that Toriyama changed his plans to end the show early in the Frieza saga instead of at the last minute.

[Amigo Ten]

Either that, or he planned on having him die and find some way to keep it going.

Possibly, but I still find it pretty implausible for something like whether the main character lives or dies to be left up to the last minute. Toriyama's editors are known to be pretty vocal out story elements they don't like.

Unless they only found out about what Toriyama was doing as he was doing it, which honestly probably happened a few times since Toriyama didn't know what he was doing until he did it. But a decision like "Goku dies" seems too major to just be made on the fly, even for him. He's said that over time he enjoyed writing the story more than drawing it, and that although he'd only come up with the specifics of each chapter as they were written, he'd have a basic idea of what was going to happen. I remember reading him talk about Goku's death in the Cell saga, and it seemed a relatively thought out decision.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

I guess that would still make things a bit more noble for Goku, but I really wouldn't want him to go out like that to be honest.

Going out like what? Choosing to fight, rather than to simply win by default? To struggle for the dignity of his friend's death? Super Saiyan Goku at the end of the Freeza arc is as noble as Goku is. Considering it's Goku we are talking about, it's actually very much perfect. Goku dies because he chose to fight, but he also dies the victor. He got his vengeance, AND he was proven to be the strongest in the galaxy. It brings the "Goku is an ALIEN?!" plot to a neat close and ties up all the loose ends. It just works.

It doesn't work because Goku dies trying to escape. He chose to stay and fight, but by no means was he willing to die because of that choice. He believed he would win and escape. To have him die like that and then end the series would be a massive downer and just inappropriate.

Exactly, He finished Freeza and got his vengeance. However, his death would be because he couldn't find his way off the planet. It's just a terrible way to have Goku die. If it were to play off like, "here I will hold Freeza off so you can escape" and then you see the planet blow and Bulma and Gohan make their escape at the last second then that would be a more noble death.

However thats not the Dragonball style, you leave the universe with everyone dead. The only hero on Earth is Gohan by default. Not really a good way to go out now is it?

[Thanos]

Eh... it gets kinda old hearing elitists say things like "IT SHOULD HAVE ENDED WHEN GOKU MET BULMA" (an obvious exaggeration, but the point has been made)... I mean why? Just because the obvious thing is that everyone would want it to keep going as long as possible, you just have to be different?

And personally, I want more even after all of DBGT. Dragon Ball clearly needs to continue on, since nearly 13 years after the end of the most recent series, it's still flourishing. New video games, movies, live action adaptations, toys, revisions of DBZ, etc... another fairly long series on the level of quality as Dragon Ball Z would continue the franchise for another couple of decades, considering people are still crazy about the old, long-ended series of the past.

[jjgp1112]

Eh... it gets kinda old hearing elitists say things like "IT SHOULD HAVE ENDED WHEN GOKU MET BULMA" (an obvious exaggeration, but the point has been made)... I mean why? Just because the obvious thing is that everyone would want it to keep going as long as possible, you just have to be different?

And personally, I want more even after all of DBGT. Dragon Ball clearly needs to continue on, since nearly 13 years after the end of the most recent series, it's still flourishing. New video games, movies, live action adaptations, toys, revisions of DBZ, etc... another fairly long series on the level of quality as Dragon Ball Z would continue the franchise for another couple of decades, considering people are still crazy about the old, long-ended series of the past.

They don't want to disgrace its legacy with a new series that would probably be inferior. Not after GT.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

They don't want to disgrace its legacy with a new series that would probably be inferior. Not after GT.

The only way you can get a new series of Dragonball, and have it done right, would be with Toryiama behind the wheel. However he's beyond done with the series. I dont blame the guy, after going on for 15 years he must be sick of it.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Eh... it gets kinda old hearing elitists say things like "IT SHOULD HAVE ENDED WHEN GOKU MET BULMA" (an obvious exaggeration, but the point has been made)... I mean why? Just because the obvious thing is that everyone would want it to keep going as long as possible, you just have to be different?

Or maybe because the show is more than 10 times longer than any reasonable-length series. Maybe because people think the last two arcs aren't as great, that the series would be better off without the fat of it.

Dragon Ball clearly needs to continue on, since nearly 13 years after the end of the most recent series, it's still flourishing. New video games, movies, live action adaptations, toys, revisions of DBZ, etc...

Dragon Ball needs a continuation because....it is already being continued?

[Amigo Ten]

I'm not saying I wanted it to end at the 23rd tournament. I just think that would be the best place for it to end in terms of the story. After that it really does go in a different direction, and while I like it, it doesn't add anything to what had come before that would make other ending points feel like the climax of the entire story.

The split between DB and Z really does happen at the perfect point. The end of DB was the finale of the whole story so far, ending at the Tenkaichi Budokai which had been a recurring story focus for pretty much the whole series. And Goku finally cements his place as the strongest under the heavens (after being trained in the heavens) by winning his most grueling battle to date. Plus he gets hitched, and it ends on an extremelt positive note with the promise of unseen adventure.

After that, any ending would really be a climax to everything that happened since that point. Freeza or Cell would have been a finale of DBZ, but not really the story as whole, other than by virtue of just being at the end. That's why I loved the addition of the few pages with Uub and Kintoun. It brings the end closer to being a proper end for the whole series, while still promising unseen adventure.

[KKZ]

"IT SHOULD HAVE ENDED WHEN GOKU MET BULMA"

I spat out my Dr. Pepper laughing at this, fucking A.

The only way you can get a new series of Dragonball, and have it done right, would be with Toriyama behind the wheel.

Toriyama isn't the only good storyteller around. I'd love to see what a good American writing team (Like whoever worked on Batman: TAS, the JL series, Avatar etc.) or some of the higher profile anime directors could come up with.

[Rocketman]

The only way you can get a new series of Dragonball, and have it done right, would be with Toryiama behind the wheel.

After the disjointed mess that was the Cell and Buu Sagas?

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

The only way you can get a new series of Dragonball, and have it done right, would be with Toryiama behind the wheel.

After the disjointed mess that was the Cell and Buu Sagas?

what are you saying? What was wrong with the Cell saga? I have some complaints about the Buu saga but over all it was fun.