Tien > Freeza?

[Amigo Ten]

Its not that logical to think that Piccolo would rise from a power level inferior to Freeza`s third form to a power level that could easily destroy #20 just by training on Earth less than two years, but he did. And he doesn`t have zenkais.

And yes, #20 and #19 have power levels similar to that of Freeza in my book. I consider full powered Freeza to be stronger than them individually but not by a whole lot.

Five years. There was a five year space of time between the Namek arc and the fight with the Cyborgs.

Not quite 5 years.

[Rocketman]

Its not that logical to think that Piccolo would rise from a power level inferior to Freeza`s third form to a power level that could easily destroy #20 just by training on Earth less than two years, but he did. And he doesn`t have zenkais.

And yes, #20 and #19 have power levels similar to that of Freeza in my book. I consider full powered Freeza to be stronger than them individually but not by a whole lot.

The second part explains the first in that case. If you think 19 and 20 were much inferior to Final Form Freeza, then Piccolo's strength is no longer illogical.

[Amigo Ten]

Even if you think #19 and #20 were as low as, say, 50% Freeza, Piccolo's power still grows by a ridiculous amount. At least around 60x stronger than he was.

And of course having #19 and #20 leads to other problems.

[rereboy]

Well, I meant in the time they spent training for the androids. Which was 3 years not 2. My mistake.

Its about five if you count the time they waited for the dragon balls to reactivate and the time it took goku to arrive. Forgot about that.

Still my point comes across. Sayans aren`t the only ones who can progress very much in shorts amount of time, even if they just train on Earth.
For example, the progress that Tenshinhan achieved training for the sayans was remarkable. He evolved as much as Piccolo (percentage wise in regards to full power), in my opinion. Piccolo was still stronger like he was to begin with, but the progress was about the same if you get what I mean.

[JulieYBM]

Its not that logical to think that Piccolo would rise from a power level inferior to Freeza`s third form to a power level that could easily destroy #20 just by training on Earth less than two years, but he did. And he doesn`t have zenkais.

And yes, #20 and #19 have power levels similar to that of Freeza in my book. I consider full powered Freeza to be stronger than them individually but not by a whole lot.

Five years. There was a five year space of time between the Namek arc and the fight with the Cyborgs.

Not quite 5 years.

Meh, close enough to five years.

[Anonymous Friend]

This is one of those things that seriously irritates me about the series. Dragon Ball kept a decent scale and scope for the powers and then Z just went all crazy. Goku and Piccolo started out at around the 300s with their fight against Raditz. Through training and dying and being healed both are taking on the most powerful being in the universe. In less than 18 months they have grown more than several dozen thousands times in power. I can except that transformations and merging and stuff to add power but this just gets rediculously out of hand.

[rereboy]

I heard someone once say that the Dragon ball sagas were out of order.

In his opinion, the sagas should be like this: android saga, sayan saga, namek saga.

He also didn`t think that the buu saga should exist.

I found this idea interesting. Several things would have to happen differently to work, but it is interesting indeed.

He based this idea on the fact that is stupid that some machines invented on earth are more powerful than the most powerful being in the universe (freeza), especially considering that Earth was less developed scientifically than other races shown in the series. Therefore, the androids (and maybe Cell) should come before Dragon Ball turned to space. And he wanted to end the series with Goku being the only super sayan and strongest in the universe, so namek would be the final saga.

Also, this way the fighters strength would evolve more naturally.

[Amigo Ten]

If we're getting rid of sagas I'd rather lose the Cell saga than the Buu saga. I also never had a problem with all the Super Saiyans.

[Tenshinhan-san]

Of course, I'm biased in this, so you might not consider my two cents as objective.

But I think by the Buu Saga, Tenshinhan would have murdered Freeza. If Tenshinhan was able to hold back 2nd form Cell (do any of you doubters realize how insanely strong 2nd form Cell was, especially compared to Freeza?) for a reasonable amount of time, I'm a 100% positive that Tenshinhan would rip Freeza to pieces. Keep in mind that Cell was SHOCKED when he learned that Tenshinhan was powerful enough to hold him back.

Not to revert to numbers, but there is no way that a guy with a powerlevel of anywhere between 200,000 and 'just' a million can come even close to touching even Cell's first form. Tenshinhan needed to be able to raise his ki to an insane level in order to concentrate THAT much energy into his Shin Kikoho (hence him almost getting killed in the process).

[Kaboom]

The thing is, though, that Tenshinhan's attack never actually hurt Cell. It did nothing but push him back, and barely. Plus, the attack in question is the Neo Kikoho, one that is greatly amplified in strength compared to his normal power level.

It's also possible, based on some comments he made, that even if Tenshinhan was incapable of using the technique in its entirety, he had been working the power-multiplying principles of the Kaio-Ken into his attacks.

So even if Tenshinhan has a PL of "only" a million or so, it's still perfectly reasonable for his attack to have the effect it did.

[Wojak]

Of course, I'm biased in this, so you might not consider my two cents as objective.

But I think by the Buu Saga, Tenshinhan would have murdered Freeza. If Tenshinhan was able to hold back 2nd form Cell (do any of you doubters realize how insanely strong 2nd form Cell was, especially compared to Freeza?) for a reasonable amount of time, I'm a 100% positive that Tenshinhan would rip Freeza to pieces. Keep in mind that Cell was SHOCKED when he learned that Tenshinhan was powerful enough to hold him back.

Not to revert to numbers, but there is no way that a guy with a powerlevel of anywhere between 200,000 and 'just' a million can come even close to touching even Cell's first form. Tenshinhan needed to be able to raise his ki to an insane level in order to concentrate THAT much energy into his Shin Kikoho (hence him almost getting killed in the process).

I agree that if he actually hit Freeza with the Shin Kikoho, he would have seriously damaged Freeza. But, if it was only a fight, there is no way that Tenshinhan would get the chance to calibrate, concentrate and annihilate Freeza with the Shin Kikoho.
I would like to add that the Shin Kikoho, unlike the other one, is a refined and perfected Kikoho, which lets the user to fire more of his energy, and also efficiently.

On the powerlevel issue, we have Goku, that with his powerlevel that was over 400, could fire a kamehameha over 1000 in power, and continue to fight after that without being exhausted.
The Kikoho, on the other hand, is stated to be a technique whose power is greatly superior to the Kamahameha.
In the end, we could assume that Tenshinhan with his long experience with the Kikoho has aquired lots of stamina and reserves, which he can use in ki techniques, but that doesn't mean that he has to be strong battle power wise nor in fighting per se.
His strength is his ki-based techniques, something he has shown great knowledge and capabilities in, three examples are the four arm technique and his body split form and lastly, the Kikoho.

That's my theory at least.

[Bussani]

That's basically how I feel about it. Kikoho is an insanely powerful attack. It's like self destructing, but in blast form. And Shin Kikoho is assumed to be more efficient, and it's main strength is that it can be rapid fired. To me, this implies that Tenshinhan's overall ki reserves/stamina have been raised a lot (which is obvious. Even Nappa fighting Tenshinhan was far above when he first used Kikoho). But if he were using any other attack, I doubt it would even have moved Cell.

Remember, Freeza got hit by a huge Genki Dama and got back up really pissed. I can imagine Shin Kikoho having a similar effect.

Plus, Kikoho in general is practically a suicide attack.

[Onikage725]

I forget which he beat, but it was filler. The fact that they hadn't been training at Kaios for that long (not even as long as Goku did) makes it a bit hard to believe, especially considering everyone else who had been through more (Vegeta, who was already stronger than Kaio trained Goku as well as getting some zenkais, and Kuririn and Gohan with unlocked potential) had a lot of trouble against them. I have no problem with Cell saga Tenshinhan being that strong though.

While it was filler, I don't have as much of a problem with it as a lot of people do. It maybe requires some suspension of disbelief, sure. But Tenshinhan was much stronger than Goku was when he started Kaio training. Growth seems to be somewhat exponential in Dragon Ball. Goku trains with Popo and Kami, goes from Daimao's level to Ma Juniors's (low hundreds all around, and Ten, numerically, isn't *that* far behind). Ten and the others train for less time (right? how much of the time skip was direct training for Goku?) and go from comparable to Goku before the Daimao saga to stronger than Raditz. And Goku, being a Saiyan, should have been gaining greater increases- but perhaps the difference was on account of having multiple sparring partners. On Kaio's this is including (at least in the anime, as the manga isn't specific) Piccolo. And we know that having sparring partners on your level or above will yield you greater benefits than training solo.

Still, it wasn't a lot of time. However, Piccolo seemed to gain a good deal of power. My take away from Piccolo's conversation with Nail was that Piccolo was stronger than him. Assuming that after a fusion, Nail would've had the ki necessary to heal himself, if he'd felt himself to be vastly stronger than Piccolo he probably would have at least suggested himself as the base. And post-fusion they are on par with 2nd form Freeza, when Nail's power was likely around Reacoom's. Not bad at all.

Also, unless the Ginyu had experience with higher G environments, I would imagine that simply being on Kaio's planet would impede their performance somewhat. Remember, Babidi seemed to think that a 10g difference would completely reverse a very one-sided fight (not knowing that A) Vegeta was holding back and B) Vegeta had done intense gravity training).

So if you take a precedent for characters to follow behind Goku's training and get comparatively better results, add the effect of sparring partners, compare to Piccolo's (arguably) large power gain, and possibly factor a diminishing factor due to gravity on the Ginyu... and I think the fight is feasible enough.

All I'm going to add is that it took Krillin all of his life up until a specific point to get the strength and power level he attained on Namek. The same goes for Tenshinhan, and then Krillin got his power boost from the Guru, making him vastly stronger than Tenshinhan. The amount of power they were gaining throughout all those years isn't even 1% of Freezas power.

Y'know, it irks me how much the aliens get to cheat in this regard once we learn that they are in fact aliens. Most of what you described applied to Goku before his death. And Piccolo was weaker than him. Tenshinhan was dead even with Goku until Goku visited Karin and got some magical help (Ten and possibly Kuririn were probably tough enough to survive drinking that too, if they had been there). The humans, as I mentioned above, improved much more from Kami's regimen than Goku did. On Namek, Kuririn, without ever dying or adjusting to a higher gravity, is stronger than your average soldier in Freeza's army. With his potential drawn out, he's almost as strong as Vegeta was on Earth. That's fricken' phenominal! Yet he can't catch a break or any praise because he's outclassed by a 5 year old, and Goku gets a nifty gravity machine, and Vegeta abuses the hell out of his Saiyan body's Doomsday (DC Comics) mechanism. Oh, and Piccolo absorbs another Namek.

If you remove the Saiyan conflict from the story, but still put the second-string heroes under Kami's care, they would have come out *much* more powerful than Goku pre-death. Even Chaozu.

[smiley]

The thing is, though, that Tenshinhan's attack never actually hurt Cell. It did nothing but push him back, and barely. Plus, the attack in question is the Neo Kikoho, one that is greatly amplified in strength compared to his normal power level.

It did not hurt him, but it did do some damage. He had bruises all over him, thickish marks and scratches on parts of his skin. It obviously did some damage, he just wasn't hurt all that much.

And Shin Kikoho can't amplify his strength THAT much. According to the Daizenshuu, it's just a massive release of energy. Meaning that Tien has enough energy within himself, to immobilize and actually do some damage to someone far more powerful than Freeza.

[Wojak]

The thing is, though, that Tenshinhan's attack never actually hurt Cell. It did nothing but push him back, and barely. Plus, the attack in question is the Neo Kikoho, one that is greatly amplified in strength compared to his normal power level.

It did not hurt him, but it did do some damage. He had bruises all over him, thickish marks and scratches on parts of his skin. It obviously did some damage, he just wasn't hurt all that much.

And Shin Kikoho can't amplify his strength THAT much. According to the Daizenshuu, it's just a massive release of energy. Meaning that Tenshinhan has enough energy within himself, to immobilize and actually do some damage to someone far more powerful than Freeza.

As I said before, you can have great power reserves but not the capability to use it all efficiently in battle. Tenshinhan probably solved this with the Kikoho, more specifically the Shin Kikoho.
And if he has got great reserves, he can use them via the Kikoho.

But in the end, I think that we forget that Toriyama wanted someone to stall Cell, and since Piccolo was down, and No.17 was absorbed and No. 16 severly damaged, the only fighter left to help at that time was Tenshinhan, who flied to the rescue since he wasn't far away to begin with.
It doesn't say much really. It's just like Tenshinhan's rescue in the Buu saga. His Kikoho blasted the energy ball of Buu away, but just a small tap from Buu downed him pretty bad.

[Bussani]

The thing is, though, that Tenshinhan's attack never actually hurt Cell. It did nothing but push him back, and barely. Plus, the attack in question is the Neo Kikoho, one that is greatly amplified in strength compared to his normal power level.

It did not hurt him, but it did do some damage. He had bruises all over him, thickish marks and scratches on parts of his skin. It obviously did some damage, he just wasn't hurt all that much.

And Shin Kikoho can't amplify his strength THAT much. According to the Daizenshuu, it's just a massive release of energy. Meaning that Tenshinhan has enough energy within himself, to immobilize and actually do some damage to someone far more powerful than Freeza.

It looks more like dirt than damage to me. Going from the manga alone, that is.

Personally I don't think Tenshinhan 'amplifies' his ki -- no more than you normally do when you raise your ki, I mean. Kikoho is just firing all of your ki off at once. Like I said, it's like self destructing, only you get to live assuming you leave yourself enough ki. Shin Kikoho seems to work on the idea of firing several smaller (smaller compared to the much larger ki you have at that point at least, probably still bigger than the standard Kikoho) Kikohos in a row before you deplete yourself. That's why to me it suggests that simply having a bucket load of ki and good control over how much you fire with each shot is what's mostly important for Shin Kikoho.

[JulieYBM]

To be honest, I really don't think Ten ever hit even twenty thousand, if you want to regulate to numbers (and comparatively, Vegeta's Saiyan arc power). The Saiyans themselves fought tooth and nail to get that sort of power themselves and when all is said an done, I believe Kuririn--with his potential drawn out--hit 13,000 for the entirety of his time on Namek, and presumably, until he began trainin' for the Artificial Humans, and even then he did it alone (Muten-Rôshi is hardly help at this point) so how likely is it he took his strength further is he continued to be heavily outclassed by Piccolo and the Saiyans? Not likely, I'd say.

[Amigo Ten]

Wasn't it said that Krillin's (and Gohan's) power was constantly rising after his potential was unlocked? Vegeta said something like that when tnhye faced Freeza. Krillin was up to 10'000 when he and Gohan fought Gurd, and later he was fighting Ginyu-Goku and winning, who was scouted at 23'000.

Not suggesting Krillin was just always getting stronger forever, but it seemed to take time for his potential to stop being drawn out.

[rereboy]

The namek elder couldn`t tap to their full potential. He could only tap into what was just below the surface.

Only the Rou kaioshin could tap into the full potential of a person.

[JulieYBM]

Wasn't it said that Krillin's (and Gohan's) power was constantly rising after his potential was unlocked? Vegeta said something like that when tnhye faced Freeza. Krillin was up to 10'000 when he and Gohan fought Gurd, and later he was fighting Ginyu-Goku and winning, who was scouted at 23'000.

Not suggesting Krillin was just always getting stronger forever, but it seemed to take time for his potential to stop being drawn out.

Well, he and Gohan were double teaming Ginyû. Gohan was 14,000 when fighting Rikuum, not sure about when fighting Ginyû or after being healed by Dende (I would assume he was progressing quicker and quicker).