Tien > Freeza?

[smiley]

It was stated any of the Kaioshins could kill Freeza with a punch.

Yet, Tien survived a kick from Gohan Buu, someone likely thousands of times stronger than the Kaioshin.

Does this mean that Tien > Freeza?

[VegettoEX]

It was stated any of the Kaioshins could kill Freeza with a punch.

Yet, Tenshinhan survived a kick from Gohan Buu, someone likely thousands of times stronger than the Kaioshin.

Does this mean that Tenshinhan > Freeza?

It is frowned upon here to talk strictly in terms of "equations" when discussing "strength" and "power" in DragonBall, especially since it is a series when a fight can go any which direction at the author's whim, regardless of logic up to that point.

Is there something else you can add to the conversation?

[Amigo Ten]

It was Gotenks Buu actually. Half of him to be exact. Obviously his legs were just pretty weak on their own. Yeah...

[Wojak]

And also, there's no way that Gotenks Buu used his full power. If he did, Tenshinhan would explode.
Also, I believe that if Tenshinhan would ever reach Freeza's powerlevel, he would at least know kaio-ken x20 or greater.
He was training at Earth, in the mountains, with Chao-zu, who was a much weaker sparring partner.

[smiley]

It is frowned upon here to talk strictly in terms of "equations" when discussing "strength" and "power" in DragonBall, especially since it is a series when a fight can go any which direction at the author's whim, regardless of logic up to that point.

Is there something else you can add to the conversation?

So in other words, you are saying that because it's Dragonball we aren't supposed to apply logic and deductive reasoning when analyzing the series.

Sorry, that explanation isn't going to cut it. I don't care what the author was thinking, we're discussing the series from the in-universe perspective, where it was established that a blow from someone far weaker than Gohan Buu can obliterate Freeza.

It was Gotenks Buu actually.

Yeah, you're right. Still, he's infinitely above the Kaioshin.

And also, there's no way that Gotenks Buu used his full power. If he did, Tenshinhan would explode.

Well it's either that, or Tien > Freeza.

But Buu had no reason to be holding back. He's a psychopathic maniac who doesn't give a shit about anyone. And he would literally have to be holding back 1/10000000th of his strength for his kick to be weaker than the Kaioshin's.

[Tyro]

So in other words, you are saying that because it's Dragonball we aren't supposed to apply logic and deductive reasoning when analyzing the series.

Sorry, that explanation isn't going to cut it. I don't care what the author was thinking, we're discussing the series from the in-universe perspective, where it was established that a blow from someone far weaker than Gohan Buu can obliterate Freeza.

Chill, man. He's the admin here; he can ban you. All he's asking is for you to change is "Does that mean Tenshinhan > Freeza" to "Does that mean Tenshinhan became more powerful than Freeza".

[VegettoEX]

It is frowned upon here to talk strictly in terms of "equations" when discussing "strength" and "power" in DragonBall, especially since it is a series when a fight can go any which direction at the author's whim, regardless of logic up to that point.

Is there something else you can add to the conversation?

So in other words, you are saying that because it's Dragonball we aren't supposed to apply logic and deductive reasoning when analyzing the series.

Sorry, that explanation isn't going to cut it. I don't care what the author was thinking, we're discussing the series from the in-universe perspective, where it was established that a blow from someone far weaker than Gohan Buu can obliterate Freeza.

You're grossly taking things out of perspective and context.

This isn't your average DragonBall fansite (and, by extension, forum), and as such, it won't have your average conversations. The typical nonsense posts filled with equations with illogical power comparisons that you find on other forums just don't fit in here, and as I mentioned, are frowned upon.

I asked if there was something else you could add to the conversation, as plenty of others responding after you have done. If you choose not to do so, then I don't see why I wouldn't just close off the thread for not really serving a purpose; anyone can just post up "So why is X greater than or equal to Y with power-up at this time?"

They're just... pointless conversations, ya' know? What else can you ADD to it? What makes it INTERESTING? What makes it IMPORTANT? What would cause someone to want to ADD to the conversation? Our goal here with Daizenshuu EX is to add some quality examination and interpretation, which it seems you WANT to do... which is great! Random power/strength equations just probably aren't the best way to do that.

(And quite frankly, those little equations just look ridiculous. Speak with your words! ^_~)

There's a lot of needless anger in your response...

[Chrome]

To be honest, surviving a kick and being stronger than somebody are completely different things. I mean, the "kaoishin punch" thing certainly adds a different edge to this debate, but... I never really seriously considered it before.

It's possible Tenshinhan may have gotten stronger than Freeza, as he was in the Freeza Saga at least. But... there's no definitive answer.

Maybe Gotenks Buu held back some power or something.

For some reason, the idea of Ten being stronger than Freeza at any point of the series just strikes me as impossible.

[rereboy]

Tenshinhan was able to hold off second form Cell who was much, much stronger than Freeza in the Cell saga.

It is only natural for him to be even stronger in the buu saga.

So yeah, Tenshinhan in the buu saga can defeat Freeza.

[Kaboom]

But Buu had no reason to be holding back. He's a psychopathic maniac who doesn't give a shit about anyone.

Gotenks-Buu actually seemed fond of toying around with his opponents.

Tenshinhan survived being kicked by Buu for the same reason Mr. Satan survived being smacked by Cell.

[Amigo Ten]

But Buu had no reason to be holding back. He's a psychopathic maniac who doesn't give a shit about anyone.

Gotenks-Buu actually seemed fond of toying around with his opponents.

Tenshinhan survived being kicked by Buu for the same reason Mr. Satan survived being smacked by Cell.

Comparing it to Krillin getting kicked by Cell would be better. Satan surived because he's basically a gag character.

[Bussani]

Tenshinhan was able to hold off second form Cell who was much, much stronger than Freeza in the Cell saga.

It is only natural for him to be even stronger in the buu saga.

So yeah, Tenshinhan in the buu saga can defeat Freeza.

He didn't actually hurt Cell though, he just held him back. By practically killing himself, I might add. He might have damaged Freeza and that's it, for all we know.

Tenshinhan's training with Kaio probably made him a lot stronger. I doubt it made him as strong as Freeza though, that'd be too easy considering what everyone else had to go through to get that powerful. And then he returned to Earth, and as Wojak said, trained in mountains. Good luck catching up with insane fighting obsessed Saiyajin that way.

[rereboy]

Tenshinhan was able to hold off second form Cell who was much, much stronger than Freeza in the Cell saga.

It is only natural for him to be even stronger in the buu saga.

So yeah, Tenshinhan in the buu saga can defeat Freeza.

He didn't actually hurt Cell though, he just held him back. By practically killing himself, I might add. He might have damaged Freeza and that's it, for all we know.

Tenshinhan's training with Kaio probably made him a lot stronger. I doubt it made him as strong as Freeza though, that'd be too easy considering what everyone else had to go through to get that powerful. And then he returned to Earth, and as Wojak said, trained in mountains. Good luck catching up with insane fighting obsessed Saiyajin that way.

Yes, he would damage Freeza... In the Cell saga.

I think its safe to say that he became much stronger in the years to come since all he cares about is his training and perfecting his body and mind with his hermit lifestyle.
Not that he could rival with the sayans of course...

[Herms]

I don't think him surviving means much of anything. Trunks survived getting hit by Boo, after all.

[Amigo Ten]

I doubt Tien spent all his time training. He probably spent most of it playing volleyball with Chaozu.

[johnboy1]

I doubt Tenshinhan spent all his time training. He probably spent most of it playing volleyball with Chaozu.

That only leaves one question: was Chaozu the opposing player... or the ball?

[Bussani]

Tenshinhan was able to hold off second form Cell who was much, much stronger than Freeza in the Cell saga.

It is only natural for him to be even stronger in the buu saga.

So yeah, Tenshinhan in the buu saga can defeat Freeza.

He didn't actually hurt Cell though, he just held him back. By practically killing himself, I might add. He might have damaged Freeza and that's it, for all we know.

Tenshinhan's training with Kaio probably made him a lot stronger. I doubt it made him as strong as Freeza though, that'd be too easy considering what everyone else had to go through to get that powerful. And then he returned to Earth, and as Wojak said, trained in mountains. Good luck catching up with insane fighting obsessed Saiyajin that way.

Yes, he would damage Freeza... In the Cell saga.

I think its safe to say that he became much stronger in the years to come since all he cares about is his training and perfecting his body and mind with his hermit lifestyle.
Not that he could rival with the sayans of course...

But how would he push himself beyond his limits on Earth? The other characters had to go to extremes to get that much stronger. You can't just do the same training forever and expect it to add up and make you that much stronger. Even after coming back from Kaios, training on Earth must have seemed like barely anything.

Unfortunately, we really have no way of knowing how strong Tenshinhan was in the Buu saga. He didn't get to do enough. I don't doubt that he was stronger, but I have a hard time imagining it would be leaps and bounds beyond what he was in the Cell saga in terms of raw power. Maybe more skill and new techniques though.

[Raki]

It is frowned upon here to talk strictly in terms of "equations" when discussing "strength" and "power" in DragonBall, especially since it is a series when a fight can go any which direction at the author's whim, regardless of logic up to that point.

Is there something else you can add to the conversation?

So in other words, you are saying that because it's Dragonball we aren't supposed to apply logic and deductive reasoning when analyzing the series.

I hate to be an absolute dick, but yes. This isn't [insert thought out manga here]. Toriyama literally threw some stuff up on the whim but not everything(looking foward to that super awesome Kunzait Dragonball/Epic Martial Arts movie comparision). To me Dragonball is mostly gag/martial arts manga. I take nothing seriously and enjoy it for what it is. I check my logic and reason at the door( or DVD menu).

[Rocketman]

I refuse to believe that a human doing no special training on Earth could get stronger than any form of Freeza.

[mattymoron]

I refuse to believe that a human doing no special training on Earth could get stronger than any form of Freeza.

Honestly, I think that it's just ridiculous to assume that Tenshinhan never surpassed Frieza's first form...