#16's death

[VegettoEX]

ROBOT:
Sergeant Metallic
RR Army Robot
Pirate Robot
Cyborg Taopaipai (with the big word "CYBORG" in both katakana and English next to him)

ANDROID (1) - MECHANICAL TYPE:
No. 16
No. 19
No. 20

ANDROID (2) - BIOTECHNOLOGICAL TYPE:
No. 8
No. 17
No. 18
Cell (and all various forms)

I could scan these pages (daizenshuu 4, "WORLD GUIDE") for you, if ya' want... it's all mostly Japanese, but yeah. Each character has their own respective (decent-sized) paragraph talking about them, so perhaps there's some more stuff of interest in there.

[number18]

Now I remember. I was like CYBORG Tao Pie Pie is a robot??? How does THAT work?

I would love to have those pages scanned for me, if you wouldn't mind me throwing them up on my site (with credit, of course). ^_^;;

[Dragon]

I thought Android 20 was Dr. Gero except he had his computer make him into an android. Where did you find that? I had no clue Android 20 was just a mechanical android.

[VegettoEX]

Well, I can kinda understand where they might be getting that.

From what they infer in the series, #20 and Dr. Gero are slightly different entities. While #20 starts getting more "feelings" and showcases of emotions as he becomes more central to the story, this can be attributed to... well... him being more central to the story. They can't have him being a static-cold-nothingness if they're telling a story with him.

He doesn't refer to himself as Dr. Gero... he says that Dr. Gero is dead, and that he is simply a jinzouningen with Dr. Gero's brain.

Basically, he seems to be a totally "android" base, made completely from scratch, but made to look exactly the same as the real Dr. Gero's physical body. With his brain inside.

I'll scan these pages for Maggie tonight. If I've got space, I'll showcase 'em. They're from the fourth daizenshuu ("WORLD GUIDE") in the "Technology" section.

[Deus ex Machina]

I remember #20 saying that as well at first, but then later he seems to go back on that statement and starts being Dr. Gero again.

Like when he returns to the lab, 17 & 18 reffer to him as Dr. Gero, and then he starts to go on about how he designed them, blah blah blah, but speaking as if he IS Dr. Gero. Infact when 18 comments that he turned himself into an Artificial Human, he replies "Of Course! I wanted Immortality too!".

I think the distinction between Dr. Gero and #20 is a mental one; he still is Dr. Gero, but he no longer considers himself such...It's not a bad theory, considering the more probable reason was Toriyama had only decided he was Dr. Gero after he came up with 17 & 18.

[number18]

I think #20 is sort of debateable. Well, to me anyway.

- He was a human.
- Maybe he got too old or just wanted one, but either way he constructed an android body for himself. He probably didn't want to make himself a cyborg cause maybe he was too old already or something.
- He built #19 to help turn himself into #20 (as I recall him saying when he first shows up in the anime).
- Dunno if this is pure fan speculation or if he actually says it anywhere, but the good doctor takes HIS brain and puts it in the android body.

Now...to me, I would be inclined to classify him as a cyborg, since in most other science fiction stories, humans that end up replacing everything but their brains (Kusanagi in GITS, Alita in Battle Angel Alita) still consider themselves humans. I mean, you can't TURN into an android if you are human, no matter how much of yourself you augment or replace. OF course, the issue of what humanity remains is contemplated by Kusanagi in GITS, but still, the fact remains that the humanity was there to begin with.

To me, Gero is a wacky cyborg with a robot body. Kinda like Krang in Ninja Turtles.

I still don't quite get why Cyborg Tao Pie Pie is classified as a robot. Maybe Toriyama has his own little story for him that he never explained (like Tao Pie Pie had plans for an android version of himself to be built in the case of his death... though how his memories were retained from like, the little bits of his blown up body is questionable.) I prefer not to speculate that though and just think that the Daizenshuu screwed up or something.

Who the hell knows...

[Deus ex Machina]

Now...to me, I would be inclined to classify him as a cyborg, since in most other science fiction stories, humans that end up replacing everything but their brains (Kusanagi in GITS, Alita in Battle Angel Alita) still consider themselves humans.

Kusanagi is an even more confusing case, because she was never human to begin with. Her "brain" is actually mechanical, but with real human brain cells (probably grown in a lab; at one point she even says she wonders if she was once a human who died, and had her brain cells put into a robot body.) Very confusing stuff.

[number18]

Is this in the comic?? I don't recall anything like that in the movie or Stand Alone Complex... She was just a person who had lost so much of her human body, she wondered what humanity was actually left in her. In Stand Alone Complex or GITS:Innocence Batou or maybe even herself wonder that, even though she's a cyborg, all the enhancements and augmentations were provided by the government and technically, since most all of her (including half her brain or whatever) is bionic, she belongs to the government.

[Deus ex Machina]

Actually I'm talking about the first movie. Maybe I mis-interpreted it, or maybe it was only in the dub, but in the begining of the movie it does show her "brain" be constructed, and later her partner says something to the effect of "Well, you do have real human brain cells floating around in that metal shell there", to which Kusanagi replied with her theories on her existence. Maybe it was just the dub though.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I don't think #20 is a cyborg, because isn't a cyborg, a human with robotic enhancements? #20 was a robot with a human enhancement, sort of. After all, the Jinzouningen with artificial brains, such as #16 and #19, didn't seem that smart...

[number18]

I haven't seen the first GITS in ages, but I'm positive she's human. Everyone in Section 9 is a cyborg in some way. Togusa is the least augmented, and Kusanagi is the most, with only like...half of her brain left untouched. Her and Batou are diving in that one scene and that's where she's all talking about herself. I can't remember what exactly, for the life of me, but yeah. The whole "ghost in the shell" thing refers to what's left of her humanity inside the cyborg body.

Anyway, concerning #20 again, I still regard him as a cyborg. Consider this. A cyborg is indeed a person with artificial enhancements. Gero, presumably, still has some or all of his original brain sitting in that android body. His human body was obviously old, and weakened from age and decay and all that good stuff. So, to enhance himself as a person, he tossed away that sucky old body and gave himself an entirely new, artificial one. There are other instances in sci-fi and anime of characters replacing their entire human body and still being referred to as cyborgs.

Like aforementioned, Kusanagi from GITS is a "full conversion borg" because her whole body has been replaced or augmented and none of the original has been replaced. Even some of her brain has been augmented, but she still remains human at base. Alita from Battle Angel Alita is another full conversion borg. The doc finds her head in a trash heap or something and slaps it on an android body.

Just think about this. The brain controls all the functions of the body. The body can be damaged and replaced with new or better parts, and the brain still is going to control those parts. If the whole body is replaced, the brain still controls it, and if parts are put in the brain to aid it, the original brain is still there to govern.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I just looked in Shounen Jump issue #12.

#20
Finally, Dr. Gero turned himself into a cyborg! It was blown up by #17 (Cyborg)

Does anyone know what I'm talking about? The little 'Androids A-B-C' thing in Shounen Jump issue #12? Was it made by Toriyama or VIZ? Because I think I remember seeing a Japanese version of this page before.

[number18]

http://www.lovelycyborg.com/shrine/androidabc.gif

It was in the original manga #32 or #31, and then it was put in Shonen Jump. I'm not sure if it's in the Viz manga.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

<_< link's not working for me...
But that means Toriyama made it then, correct?

[number18]

It's not? It should. The file is there and the address is correct. Refresh maybe?

Yeah, I mean if Toriyama didn't make it, then it's a mystery who did.

[VegettoEX]

Direct-linking doesn't work. You got hot-link-killing enabled on your server? Copy-and-pasting the URL brings it up, though.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Copy-and-pasting the URL brings it up, though.

Oh, now I see it, thanks. Do you know anything about that Android thing EX?

[number18]

Hmm... well I guess it might have just been enabled. I have no clue myself, since my friend lets me have space on her server. Weird.

Anyway, if the c/p doesn't work, the link to the picture is at the very bottom of this page
http://www.lovelycyborg.com/misconceptions.shtml

[Deus ex Machina]

Hm...looking back on those now, I think I could've scanned a few of those images a bit more straight. >.>

[number18]

Well WAY TO SCREW IT UP, DEUS!!

They're at least better than my yellowish, blurry digital camera pictures...

One day, when I stop being cheap and buy a scanner AND buy all the Dragonball manga, I will have loads of good images for my site. ;-;