Dragonball & One Piece: A Match Made In Heaven?

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:02 pm

Big Boss wrote:An in-depth backstory doesn't make a good villain in my eyes. A good villain needs me to truly hate them, want them dead, etc... Freeza fits this bill perfectly. He's a cold blooded, sadistic murderer who's killed off entire species just for the hell of it, and on top of that, it's his freakin' business. No One Piece villain has ever made me feel this sense of "I truly want this fucker dead..."

Huh. I'm the complete opposite. I agree that a good villain is one you need to hate. I really like Dragon Ball villains, but none of them have ever made me hate them so much that I want them dead. The only time I've ever felt like I wanted a villain to die in Dragon Ball was when the fight had gone on way too long, and I just wanted it to be over. Maybe it's because all Dragon Ball villains do is kill people, and death is usually meaningless in the story.

One Piece, on the other hand...almost every villain is built up as an asshole, more and more, and then there's the delicious payoff when they finally get their ass kicked. I'm surprised anyone could watch the Arlong arc without hating him.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:09 pm

One Piece's villains are the sort that you love to hate, though. Look at Buggy, he's the best gag villain there can be as he doesn't wear old (espicially as of late with his new friend). Then there's Crocodile, who manipulates all, and even after that satisfying pay off he makes a return just as arrogant as ever.

Great villains can be more than the sort you truly want to suffer and die.

Teclo · Post by **Teclo** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:04 pm

To be honest, the typical DBZ villain flies around for a bit and blows up a few random "NPCs". That doesn't make me hate them at all. Sure, it gets the blood pumping for the upcoming fight, but I'm hardly thinking "God damn you Cell! How dare you blow up Man in Suit #4!! I was really attached to him!!" Sure, you get the odd personal thing, like Cell stomping on #16, but that somehow had pretty much no emotional impact on me whatsoever. In DBZ, I think the first time I really felt a realistic hatred towards a bad guy was when Spopovich was beating the shit out of Videl - that wasn't because I was like "aw Videl mai waifu" or anything, but because it was kind of like seeing Adrian (Rocky's wife) being beaten up rather than seeing Rocky getting beaten up. It was also portrayed in more of a realistic sort of way. Still, even that's not that emotionally devastating because we have senzu and Dragon Balls. And, I guess, she had intentionally entered a tournament were she knew she might get beaten up. You get the main fighter characters killed for the cause but it's really very rare that a developed, non-combative character gets tormented in some way; like imagine the androids torturing Chi-Chi or something. Just wouldn't happen.

Conversely, in One Piece we have Arlong tormenting all these character's you're introduced to through Nami. You really feel like you know Nami's village friends well during that arc; the sacrifices they all make feel very real. In DBZ, you'd have Arlong flying through the air, blowing up some random village, and that'd be it. Just recently, in the Apis storyline, I was really pissed off at that fat bastard for wanting to kill the dragon that Apis, Luffy and co. were trying to protect. That honestly had a far larger emotional impact on me than "Are you talking about Kuriri- Oh, we have the Dragon Balls..." did. I think Cargo pretty much sums up the DBZ approach, come to think of it. Yeah, we have this innocent little kid but he isn't remotely characterised other than being "innocent kid". I think I actually feel more hatred towards Mr Satan for stealing all the glory and basically lying to the whole damn world than I do towards Freeza, Cell or Buu.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:18 pm

Teclo wrote:To be honest, the typical DBZ villain flies around for a bit and blows up a few random "NPCs". That doesn't make me hate them at all. Sure, it gets the blood pumping for the upcoming fight, but I'm hardly thinking "God damn you Cell! How dare you blow up Man in Suit #4!! I was really attached to him!!" Sure, you get the odd personal thing, like Cell stomping on #16, but that somehow had pretty much no emotional impact on me whatsoever. In DBZ, I think the first time I really felt a realistic hatred towards a bad guy was when Spopovich was beating the shit out of Videl - that wasn't because I was like "aw Videl mai waifu" or anything, but because it was kind of like seeing Adrian (Rocky's wife) being beaten up rather than seeing Rocky getting beaten up. It was also portrayed in more of a realistic sort of way. Still, even that's not that emotionally devastating because we have senzu and Dragon Balls. And, I guess, she had intentionally entered a tournament were she knew she might get beaten up. You get the main fighter characters killed for the cause but it's really very rare that a developed, non-combative character gets tormented in some way; like imagine the androids torturing Chi-Chi or something. Just wouldn't happen.

Conversely, in One Piece we have Arlong tormenting all these character's you're introduced to through Nami. You really feel like you know Nami's village friends well during that arc; the sacrifices they all make feel very real. In DBZ, you'd have Arlong flying through the air, blowing up some random village, and that'd be it. Just recently, in the Apis storyline, I was really pissed off at that fat bastard for wanting to kill the dragon that Apis, Luffy and co. were trying to protect. That honestly had a far larger emotional impact on me than "Are you talking about Kuriri- Oh, we have the Dragon Balls..." did. I think Cargo pretty much sums up the DBZ approach, come to think of it. Yeah, we have this innocent little kid but he isn't remotely characterised other than being "innocent kid". I think I actually feel more hatred towards Mr Satan for stealing all the glory and basically lying to the whole damn world than I do towards Freeza, Cell or Buu.

Very well put. I agree on all counts.

I feel like, maybe if I liked Vegeta more, I'd hate Freeza for humiliating him with all the punches in the back and everything. But then I realize, I don't hate Vegeta, it's just...he deserved it too much?

I dunno.

You get the main fighter characters killed for the cause but it's really very rare that a developed, non-combative character gets tormented in some way; like imagine the androids torturing Chi-Chi or something. Just wouldn't happen.

This especially. It's just not Toriyama's style. If that actually happened, I would no doubt feel the same "oh this guy needs to go down" feeling I get from One Piece villains.

Edit: There are times when bad guys are picking on the little guys. Snow's village being dominated by the Red Ribbon Army, for instance. But in this case, it might be that the payoff came too quickly. It's just, "they're bad guys? Okay!" and Goku frees the village in one heroic, unstoppable charge. You didn't have time to really hate them because they got overpowered so quickly. Of course, most of the fights were humorous at that point, so...yeah.

Post by **Herms** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:24 pm

But then, in One Piece you know that the villian won't be allowed to actually kill anyone unless it's in a flashback. I don't know which cheapens things more, having the dragonballs to put everything back to normal, or knowing that everyone will turn up alive and well later no matter how improbable that is (unless it's a flashback, in which case you know straighaway that any character who hasn't been shown in the present is doomed).

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:34 pm

Herms wrote:But then, in One Piece you know that the villian won't be allowed to actually kill anyone unless it's in a flashback. I don't know which cheapens things more, having the dragonballs to put everything back to normal, or knowing that everyone will turn up alive and well later no matter how improbable that is (unless it's a flashback, in which case you know straighaway that any character who hasn't been shown in the present is doomed).

Yeah, that's true too. I wonder if that will change in the second half, just to surprise everyone?

The dragon balls do reverse more than death, though. They're like a magic reset button. One Piece villains may not be able to kill someone (unless it's a flashback), but they sure can crush their dreams.

And it's not just the dragon balls I suppose. Even if someone dies and it's permanent in Dragon Ball, you know they're probably just hanging out in the afterlife. You'd have to double kill them to really get rid of them. Or maybe if they irreversibly died but were stuck in limbo?

fps_anth · Post by **fps_anth** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:34 pm

Herms wrote:But then, in One Piece you know that the villian won't be allowed to actually kill anyone unless it's in a flashback. I don't know which cheapens things more, having the dragonballs to put everything back to normal, or knowing that everyone will turn up alive and well later no matter how improbable that is (unless it's a flashback, in which case you know straighaway that any character who hasn't been shown in the present is doomed).

Here's my theory:

Oda isn't killing anyone up until now on purpose. When he finally does, it's going to impact us that much harder

Post by **Herms** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:29 am

I just wish he'd stop trying to do emotional "death" scenes where the person/people just turn up fine once the battle is done. We know the character won't actually die, and he knows that we know, so why not just get on with the actual story?

Um, well anyway I really do enjoy One Piece a great deal, despite having a few complaints.

Scarz · Post by **Scarz** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:24 am

Herms wrote:But then, in One Piece you know that the villian won't be allowed to actually kill anyone unless it's in a flashback. I don't know which cheapens things more, having the dragonballs to put everything back to normal, or knowing that everyone will turn up alive and well later no matter how improbable that is (unless it's a flashback, in which case you know straighaway that any character who hasn't been shown in the present is doomed).

Actually I don't mind that Oda doesn't kill off characters in One Piece. It's kinda like an American cartoon or comic, you know the bad guy gonna lose but only in super rare cases he dies. The only reason to keep the badies alive is to build up or maintain a rouge gallery for the Hero and it allows them to come back as a more threatening menace. Or in Oda case to team up with Luffy and escape prison. But yes I have to admit sometimes it does get really annoying after 500 plus chapters.

My real complaint with One Piece is this Haki (will power) bull Oda keeps rubbing in. It like a super-sayjin-pulling-unknowing-power-out-my-ass territory DBZ had plowed thorough multiple times. And the Devil Fruit users, good lord! It's like everyone and their dog is a devil fruit user now! It use to be a big deal to when a character was DF user but now its more a shocker when someone isn't.

Shoryuken · Post by **Shoryuken** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:29 am

Herms wrote:I just wish he'd stop trying to do emotional "death" scenes where the person/people just turn up fine once the battle is done. We know the character won't actually die, and he knows that we know, so why not just get on with the actual story?

Because it for one creates suspense.
Secondly I don't believe that Arlong is alive also because Jinbei (SPOILERS)
has the urge to kill Luffy, but won't until their great rescue plan has been completed (SPOILERS OVER).

Big Boss wrote:No One Piece villain has ever made me feel this sense of "I truly want this fucker dead..."

I disagree. Arlong killed Nami's mother, treated her like shit and forced her to commit crimes. He is one of the only One Piece villains who I wanted truly dead.

And the Dragon Balls are pretty much the deus ex machina/plot device of the series. If you remove them then there are little story left.

Saiyaman Prime · Post by **Saiyaman Prime** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:37 am

I haven't read/watched One Piece at all but it's numerous crossovers with Dragonball have gotten me interested.
Can someone tell me how these two are similar?

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:10 am

Scarz wrote:And the Devil Fruit users, good lord! It's like everyone and their dog is a devil fruit user now! It use to be a big deal to when a character was DF user but now its more a shocker when someone isn't.

I think that's to be expected in the Grand Line. But there are still a few who pull off devil fruit user feats without a power, and they're even more amazing because of it.

Saiyaman Prime wrote:I haven't read/watched One Piece at all but it's numerous crossovers with Dragonball have gotten me interested.
Can someone tell me how these two are similar?

They're both shounen that lean towards cartoony (rather than dead serious), but have their serious moments and lots of action/adventure. Really, most shounen shows have a lot in common. Similar character types, similar story elements. Both One Piece and Dragon Ball have interesting, fantastical worlds to explore. I don't know what to say other than that.

The main reason the two get compared is their length and popularity with the same sort of target audience, making One Piece 'the Dragon Ball of today' as some people might put it (though not everyone will agree with that statement).

theoriginalbilis · Post by **theoriginalbilis** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:20 am

Saiyaman Prime wrote:I haven't read/watched One Piece at all but it's numerous crossovers with Dragonball have gotten me interested.
Can someone tell me how these two are similar?

- Epic storylines that start out on a small humble scale, but grow to a universal scope.
- Both series have a large cast of likable characters.
- Memorable heroes and villains
- Lots of comedy (DragonBall starts out as a comedy, but lessens as the plot continue, One Piece meshes comedy and drama more seamlessly into the story)
- Lots of fights (One Piece to a lesser extent, but most of the arcs involve the Straw Hat crew against some massive force.)
- A strong sense of adventure and a developed universe/mythos.
- Themes dealing with friendship, overcoming hard struggles, and fighting for what is right.
- Superpowers or superhuman abilities
- Unique art styles (Oda's is very animated and Disney-esque, but he quotes Toriyama as an influence on his work.)
- Similar main characters (Both Luffy and Goku lack certain social graces and seem pretty naive and silly at times, but gets serious when it counts)
- Both manga have broken sales records in Japan.
- Both anime series are in the top-ratings on Japanese TV.
- Both have had bad English dubs during their initial runs on US television (lol, but FUNimation has taken great stride in creating a good One Piece after they bought the license from 4Kids, who originally aired One Piece in America.)

I could go on and into more detail, but yeah... One Piece is more or less the spiritual successor to DB.

DemonRin · Post by **DemonRin** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:31 am

Not to mention that Toei Animates both Shows
There's Dream 9, with Special Eyecatches of the Characters Interacting
the DBZ x OP Merch that came out very recently
and OF COURSE Cross Epoch

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:46 am

Kezellz wrote:I love both of them, and I never heard of a DBZ fan who didn't like One Piece

Hello.

Trust me hon, there are a lot of Dragonball fans who can't stand One Piece. Just because Toriyama likes the show doesn't mean we have to.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:18 am

Metalwario64 · Post by **Metalwario64** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:32 am

Uh... I've only seen the first 30-something episodes of One Piece, and I think it's okay.

Kunzait_83 wrote:And if this somehow magically changes after a “measly” 227 freaking episodes (roughly half of a 400+ episode still-ongoing series)

I don't know why you are so offended by this. I mean, it's only some fans opinion... That doesn't mean that it is a fact that it indeed only becomes entertaining by that part... I was entertained since episode 4 or so.

Also, I think that might be Kunzaits longest post yet, and just to state his strong "dislike" of One Piece!

obiwan23s · Post by **obiwan23s** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:57 am

Kunzait_83's Greatest Hits Vol 139 wrote:*snip*

Thanks for giving me no less than 10 classic martial arts references to spend the next month or two watching

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:10 am

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:19 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:*snip*

You hate shounen. This reaction is to be expected.

That said, even though I'm a fan of both, I can understand why you're not; it just goes to show that you don't have to be.

Also, I thought One Piece was good from the start. It just seems to get better and better as it goes (for people who like it, anyway). To be honest, ask a fan who's at any point in the series, and they'll say "oh get this far it's just getting great".

Finally, some of your comments made me think that the most you've seen of the show is the openings. I don't know how much you've actually seen, and assume you've seen enough to not be interested, of course; but in some sentences what you were describing didn't sound much like the show I'd seen.

It is very shounen-emotional-friendship-nevergiveup, though.