Were Battle Powers Really Important?

obiwan23s · Post by **obiwan23s** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:50 pm

I brought this up in the chat last night after watching the raw version of Dragon Ball Kai #20. I just found it interesting that Vegeta was flipping out that Son's battle power was over 8,000 when he first arrived on Earth (only to further multiply via Kaio-ken) and then at the beginning of the Namek story, all of Freeza's goons are wide-eyed and dumbfounded that Vegeta now has a battle power of 24,000 because they all knew that before he went to Earth he was only at 18,000.

It does serve its purpose to show that the rest of the universe measured strength differently than Son and everyone else on Earth did, but it seems like Toriyama stops trying to weave the battle power aspect into the story with any sense of believable continuity. Especially if Son goes from being a "big deal" at 8,000 to being able to give Freeza a good fight in his final form, even though his second transformation is clocked at being over one million.

JAPPO · Post by **JAPPO** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:59 pm

It reminds me of Star Wars Episode I where they reveal the midi-chlorians are what determines how powerful the force is with someone. Something like that.

So, tacked on and unnecessary.

Post by **Herms** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:03 pm

JAPPO wrote:It reminds me of Star Wars Episode I where they reveal the midi-chlorians are what determines how powerful the force is with someone. Something like that.

So, tacked on and unnecessary.

It's not like that at all though. Ki is present in the story from the very beginning as an explanation for how the characters can perform their various superhuman feats. Battle powers are just unreliable measurements of ki used by Freeza and co. because they're too spiritually blind and focused on sheer power to be able to sense ki themselves like the good guys can.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:03 pm

johnboy1 · Post by **johnboy1** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:19 pm

VegettoEX wrote:I'd next like to argue just how terrible the build-up for "OMG IS HE SUPER SAIYA-JIN OR NOT?!?" was just as ridiculous .

I have to agree here. Vegeta seems to mention being a Super Saiyan or fearing that Goku would be a Super Saiyan every time he takes a breath. It gets to the point where Freeza shooting him in the chest and telling him to shut up almost comes off as a punchline.

.:PoetikaL:. · Post by **.:PoetikaL:.** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:45 pm

johnboy1 wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:I'd next like to argue just how terrible the build-up for "OMG IS HE SUPER SAIYA-JIN OR NOT?!?" was just as ridiculous .
I have to agree here. Vegeta seems to mention being a Super Saiyan or fearing that Goku would be a Super Saiyan every time he takes a breath. It gets to the point where Freeza shooting him in the chest and telling him to shut up almost comes off as a punchline.

I second this... I swear someone should take the clips of all those parts, and then after Freeza shoots him... place the rimshot cymbals when Vegeta spits blood.

Raki · Post by **Raki** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:15 pm

I hate power levels for the sole fact that they are what most folks judge the series by. But as a limited concept in two arcs, they serve their purpose.

Teclo · Post by **Teclo** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:38 am

I don't hate power levels because they're repeatedly stated to be untrustworthy. I'd hate them if they really were the be-all and end-all of DBZ, but they're not. The whole idea that "DBZ sucks because it's just PL vs PL" is ironic because DBZ itself was saying that PLs are bullshit. It's also interesting to me because although DBZ is seen as DB with a sci-fi spin, it almost always places mysticism over science. The Dragon Balls are still the thing to own; senzu are better than those Bacta tank things that Freeza's men use; scouters are about as trustworthy as a three-way fusion between Pinnochio, Usopp and Richard Nixon - in fact the only time they seem to be telling you the full picture, they explode (uh, the scouters, that is); the various spacecraft are superseded by instant transmission; the gravity chamber is outmoded by the Room of Spirit and Time; the fake-moon thing in Vegeta's space ball becomes totally pointless as SSJ replaces Oozaru... And there are still things like people's "true power" being brought out by mystical means (the Z Sword for example) and the fact that Buu is a demon summoned by magic (admittedly there's a bit of techo-babble thrown in with the machine that revives him).

So DBZ is still chock-full of mysticism being the real deal while technology is what you use if you can't do the really good stuff like fly or teleport. In fact, I think the actual usefulness of Capsule Corp is reduced to making the Great Saiyaman's costume... So to answer the topic question, yes they're important as part of a greater theme of technology being, well, a bit rubbish whereas more spiritual or magical things are the real deal.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:02 am

Like Herms said, ki is present throughout the story. Most of the time, the person with the greater ki wins. Battle powers were just a way of quantifying that. Even after they go away, it's still, "his ki is so much bigger than ours! What do we do??"

I think...scouters themselves were a flawed system. They weren't perfect, especially the way they were being used, because the users just didn't understand ki. But it's not like being able to sense ki naturally is automatically that much better. It's still bad to rely on it entirely. Sometimes the opponent is holding back, and can surprise you if you get too cocky.

There are some advantages, of course. I don't know if it was more skill with sensing, or just natural gut instinct, but Kuririn could tell when Cell and Trunks were still holding back -- and Trunks hadn't even really done anything yet. You couldn't do that by just relying on a scouter. Anyone can point a scouter a push a button. It was a crutch that was dulling the battle senses of the users.

But yeah, battle powers like "1,000,000" and "his ki is bigger than this ki!" aren't any different in and of themselves.

Aikachi · Post by **Aikachi** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:57 am

I've always thought of power levels as kind of useless. Scouters explode so easily at such low levels (compared to the levels of strength we see later in the series anyway), that they pretty much became obsolete right after they were introduced. After so many people saying 'THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE! His powerlevel went up AGAIN!' you kind of stop paying attention. As others have suggested, perhaps it was meant to be a flawed system to begin with. It seems to exist only to prove that it doesn't apply to our good guys anyway. Foolish to reduce a Saiyan to numbers indeed.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:08 am

Aikachi wrote:After so many people saying 'THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE! His powerlevel went up AGAIN!' you kind of stop paying attention.

But then didn't it just become, "THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE! His ki went up AGAIN!" instead? It's the same thing, just vaguer.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:56 pm

I just want to add to what Milton and Kunzait mentioned. In defense, somwhat, of the US fanbase, "power levels" weren't just the passing plot device that they should have been. At the time, the show's US run basically encompassed the power level focused parts of the series. The only things missing were the Ginyu scuffle, Freeza's 2nd form boast, and the false reading on Trunks. These episodes aired, re-aired in the off-season, aired for a couple of years during the hiatus, and I think aired again to lead up to season 3. Likewise, it seemed to me that the "Saiyan Saga" and "Namek Saga" box sets were the most available and easily collectible way to get large chunks of the series on home release.

So this concept was literally pounded into the skulls of young children, and just happened to be around the same time that this "internet" thing was blurring the line between luxory and household staple. Heck, a lot of power level lists went up before the US run had even picked back up, let alone finished. Many fan power level lists went up by people who probably didn't even realize yet that power levels would be phased out. What in retrospect is a fairly passing concept was, at the time, pretty fresh. Many fans picked up some tapes, or saw some clips online, and would wonder "hm, I wonder what Goku's power level is going to be when he fights Cell as a Super Saiyan." And since their main frame of reference for a saga-ending DBZ clash is the fight with Vegeta... well, can anyone blame them? That fight is all about the notion. Goku, who used to take down even seemingly superior opponents through sheer force of will, now literally could do nothing against Vegeta until he used a technique designed to force his level of power above Vegeta's.

Even the introduction to Z... was Piccolo's finishing strike on Raditz deadly because it was designed as a Kienzan-esque technique that could bypass defense? Seemingly so, but the dialogue regarding the situation is all about how high Piccolo has increased his power.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:26 pm

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:45 pm

Adding again, I remember when Dragon Ball Z first aired in the UK. One of the commercials asked "What's your power level!?" Even the advertisements made you think they were a staple of the series.

Anonymous Friend · Post by **Anonymous Friend** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:02 am

I've read a few posts about how powerlevels are untrustworthy, but it seems that they are accurate in showing how much "energy" is being outputed by a character at the time of the reading from the scouter. It's just not showing what a person is capable of outputing, which I guess is what everyone is refering to.

Therefore, maybe the gripe is with the scouter readings and not with a person's actual powerlevel, because "powerlevel" were always around. Goku had a powerlevel all throughout the series. As well as all of the other characters. Freeza's group came along and gave them numbers. And even the heroe's own powerlevel sencing abilities were about as faulty. You'll only be able to read what was being output on the surface, but you may either feel that there was still more below the surface, or be completely caught of gaurd as to what their full strength was.

Freeza's group had only been accustomed to people who always outputted what they were capable of and just never cared to be in a "relaxed" state. Which is understandable in an environment where the weaker people are extremely despensable. You'ld want to give it your all and hope that you end up higher on the chain.

It's funny that right after a really long story arc of the heroes running around and supressing their powerlevels and being sneaky, they come across enemies whose powerlevels, at first, can't be sensed, and then, also hides his very well.

I've been watching Dragonball since the day Toonami first aired it, but but never really focused on powerlevels. I guess that's something to be greatful for.

Kroni_Hunter · Post by **Kroni_Hunter** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:23 pm

I've come to understand power levels as just a tool used by Frieza's planet trade. It only measured power up to a certain point, but those readings were probably not that significant to someone outside of that group. Once the Z fighters get above Frieza, PLs are obsolete, although in theory they could still have them, it would be pointless to try and figure them out.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:41 pm

Kroni_Hunter wrote:I've come to understand power levels as just a tool used by Freeza's planet trade. It only measured power up to a certain point, but those readings were probably not that significant to someone outside of that group. Once the Z fighters get above Freeza, PLs are obsolete, although in theory they could still have them, it would be pointless to try and figure them out.

Well, the concept never goes away. Fighters still sense ki, and comment on how strong someone is. Remember when Goku powered up after RoSaT training, mentioned he was at about 50% strength, and Gohan didn't believe it? And if someone had a scouter capable of tracking such enormous levels, you could have followed his power up, and gotten a reading when he settled down.

The problem is that they could only scan the surface, but they relied on those surface readings. With characters manipulating their levels, amplifying them either in focused bursts or with Kaio-ken, transformations, and power-fluctuations based often based on emotions... well, Ginyu said beings who could alter their power were rare, but the whole series centers around such beings. The stronger they got, the more they had to play with, and the less reliable any sort of calculation would be at telling you how to expect a battle to play out.

Kroni_Hunter · Post by **Kroni_Hunter** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:29 pm

Yeah, the scouters were very unreliable with those kinds of situations.
I think the way scouters read PLs is different than the way the Z fighters sensed Kii. Scouters just assigned a flat number to someone and only in their current state. Kii sensing is probably more abstract, meaning the Z fighters don't give them actual numbers but can kind of "sense" the impact and strength coming from a being. Without knowing an actual number you can still say "This force is way stronger than that force." They also seemed to be able to tell when a being is suppressing their power, sometimes even accurately predicting how much exactly is being suppressed.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:29 pm

Kroni_Hunter wrote:Yeah, the scouters were very unreliable with those kinds of situations.
I think the way scouters read PLs is different than the way the Z fighters sensed Kii. Scouters just assigned a flat number to someone and only in their current state. Kii sensing is probably more abstract, meaning the Z fighters don't give them actual numbers but can kind of "sense" the impact and strength coming from a being. Without knowing an actual number you can still say "This force is way stronger than that force." They also seemed to be able to tell when a being is suppressing their power, sometimes even accurately predicting how much exactly is being suppressed.

That's exactly what I said. Not every character can tell when someone is suppressing their strength, though. I think it's more to do with experience in battle and instinct than in having a better ability to sense ki or anything. And using a scouter to rely on numbers that you assume can't change dulls those battle senses.

Goku, Piccolo and to and lesser extent Kuririn, seem to be the ones most skilled at realizing when someone's power has increased, before they've even brought it all out. But they're not infallible, either. As Goku put it after seeing Cell, he still had no idea how powerful Cell would be when he was getting serious.