Who's ultimately to blame for Cell's completion?

SuperSaiyan3Goku · Post by **SuperSaiyan3Goku** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:05 pm

It's both Vegeta and Krillin. Krillin could have de-activated 18 when he had the chance, but he was to much in love with her.

As for Vegeta, he did what many consider his dumbest move in DBZ history. After battling Imperfect Cell in his USSJ form and finding out how much of a weakling he was, Mr. Greedy-as-shit wanted to battle Cell in his most powerful form so he could test his new powers out. And ended up getting his ass kicked. Actually, both Krillin AND Vegeta both got their asses kicked.

If it weren't for the God that Gohan was at the time, the Universe would have been fucked.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:20 pm

He went back in time to begin with because it was Bulma's idea. He says that she said there deserved to be at least one time line where what happened to them didn't happen, so Bulma knew how the time travel would work.

MCDaveG · Post by **MCDaveG** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:06 am

Unbelieavable idiotic Cell saga's Vegeta

Rory · Post by **Rory** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:53 am

That chapter of Dragonball really is the moron olympics.
Kuririn is pathetic for falling for a woman so quickly (then again, I don't believe in love at first sight). Even if he is a bald midget virgin, one kiss? Grow a pair Kuririn, jesus. #17 was a cocky bastard for not fleeing when given a clear oportunity, and #18 should've ran away too (but I cut her some slack because to be fair, she was looking after #16, being the only person in that situation to do the morally right thing).
Yeah, Vegeta, just let Cell absorb #18, that plan won't backfire at all. Pillock.

Trunks and #16 (and sadly, Cell) really seemed to be the only characters in that moment to really have their heads screwed on, everybody else was being completely moronic.
It's really a mixture to multiple people, but if there's one person to blame, it was Vegeta. His lowest moment in the entire manga, it was completely out of character (he's smeart to be smart, what happened to Namek-era Vegeta?). Possibly the most idiotic moment in all of Dragonball, way't go Vegeta.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:25 am

Re: Idiotic Vegeta...

Vegeta letting Cell absorb 18, while I won't disagree was a foolish move, is by no means out of character.
He wasn't ninjaing like on Namek, sure. Why? He wasn't in it to beat Cell! He didn't really care; his entire purpose was to fight the supposedly unbeatable androids; his goal throughout that arc was to meet the greatest possible challenge, and Kakarot when he got the chance.
Hence, fighting #18 despite it being a stupid move, Cell's completion, all of that, right up to Trunks getting mortally wounded by Cell.

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:10 pm

Rory wrote:Trunks and #16 (and sadly, Cell) really seemed to be the only characters in that moment to really have their heads screwed on, everybody else was being completely moronic.

Speaking of Trunks though, right around that point in time wasn't he intentionally limiting his power really bad so that Daddy wouldn't get embarrassed that his kid was stronger than him? I can't remember exactly what occurred because of that (It's been years since I watched the beginning of Cell, and it was dub only) but I remember wanting to knock some sense into him when he was doing that.

As to who's ultimately responsible? Son, Veg, and whoever else went all "Oh no, we can't take out Gero before he finishes the androids, that's cheating" at the beginning of the freaking saga. If they had just one in and not even killed the guy but carted him off to the moon or something and blew up his lab none of this would have had to happen.

Big Momma · Post by **Big Momma** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:19 pm

Toriyama....

....

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:29 pm

Big Momma wrote:Toriyama....

....

Don't yiou mean Toriyama's editor?

mystic trunks · Post by **mystic trunks** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:30 pm

Velasa wrote:
Rory wrote:Trunks and #16 (and sadly, Cell) really seemed to be the only characters in that moment to really have their heads screwed on, everybody else was being completely moronic.
Speaking of Trunks though, right around that point in time wasn't he intentionally limiting his power really bad so that Daddy wouldn't get embarrassed that his kid was stronger than him? I can't remember exactly what occurred because of that (It's been years since I watched the beginning of Cell, and it was dub only) but I remember wanting to knock some sense into him when he was doing that.

Trunks did hold back some of his power while Vegeta was conscious, but he did transform soon after he was knocked out and still couldn't defeat him. So it's not like he was holding back against Cell, who, by the way,... was already complete at that point.

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:40 pm

Ah, thank you for straightening that out. I haven't seen those episodes since... *checks date on tapes* 2000 o_o so it gets a little fuzzy in here trying to remember sequence of events. And that was the pretty much useless middle-SSJ form with the fat muscles anyway right? So we're good with Trunks then.

mystic trunks · Post by **mystic trunks** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:46 pm

Velasa wrote:Ah, thank you for straightening that out. I haven't seen those episodes since... *checks date on tapes* 2000 o_o so it gets a little fuzzy in here trying to remember sequence of events. And that was the pretty much useless middle-SSJ form with the fat muscles anyway right? So we're good with Trunks then.

Fat muscles is a bit of an oxymoron but yes, It didn't work against Cell.

FormallyKnownAsPrince · Post by **FormallyKnownAsPrince** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:29 pm

If I had to choose, I'd have to blame Krillin and Vegeta for being completely selfish. Vegeta wanted bragging rights, Krillin wanted #18- both were too wrapped up in their own emotions to think (or in Vegeta's case, care) about the consequences of their actions.

Of course... the whole saga could have been avoided had any one of them just killed Gero before he even created the androids. I have a hard time enjoying this arc because the logic is so flawed. The story just doesn't flow like the Saiyan and Namek arcs :/

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:45 pm

FormallyKnownAsPrince wrote:
Of course... the whole saga could have been avoided had any one of them just killed Gero before he even created the androids. I have a hard time enjoying this arc because the logic is so flawed. The story just doesn't flow like the Saiyan and Namek arcs :/

You think its OK to kill someone just because of what they might do?

For example, you think its OK to kill 9 year old Hitler if you could do it?

Its not that simple (morally) to do.

Besides, of course Goku and the others would want to face the cyborgs... If Goku didn`t think like that he wouldn`t have spared Piccolo, Vegeta and tried to spare Freeza... Its all about the fight and the honor of battle and the challenge. They are not crazy but those things are hugely important to them.

For example, Namek arc Vegeta was just like Cell saga Vegeta. He didn`t change. He was very tactical and careful and relied much more on strategy on Namek, because he KNEW that Freeza was leagues above him. I mean way, way, way stronger than him. And he wasn`t crazy or suicidal despite being just like Goku. So he was very tactical during those days because he couldn`t win any other way.

However, when he fought Cell, he honestly didn`t believe that Cell was going to surpass him once he reached his perfect state. He just wanted a better challenge. He acted just like Goku did when Freeza was powering up to 100%. He was just a little more cocky than Goku was. He wanted the challenge. However 100% Freeza didn`t surpass SSJ Goku. But perfect Cell surpassed USSJ Vegeta. Its that simple.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:53 pm

rereboy wrote:For example, you think its OK to kill 9 year old Hitler if you could do it?

To save sixty million lives? Yes.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:58 pm

Rocketman wrote:
rereboy wrote:For example, you think its OK to kill 9 year old Hitler if you could do it?
To save sixty million lives? Yes.

You would still be killing someone who hadn`t done anything yet. An "innocent" life, sort of.

You would be doing it for the greater good, but its not that simple (morally) to do. Its still wrong. The lesser evil of the two situations.

Thats why if there was a chance of preventing those deaths any other way, even if it wasn`t as certain as killing the boy, many people would try that instead.

And thats what Goku did. He tried the alternative. Get ready for the cyborgs and try to stop them.

mystic trunks · Post by **mystic trunks** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:06 pm

rereboy wrote:
FormallyKnownAsPrince wrote:

However, when he fought Cell, he honestly didn`t believe that Cell was going to surpass him once he reached his perfect state. He just wanted a better challenge. He acted just like Goku did when Freeza was powering up to 100%. He was just a little more cocky than Goku was. He wanted the challenge. However 100% Freeza didn`t surpass SSJ Goku. But perfect Cell surpassed USSJ Vegeta. Its that simple.

This is a very good. point. I've actually never thought about it this way before.

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:08 pm

Rory wrote: It's really a mixture to multiple people, but if there's one person to blame, it was Vegeta. His lowest moment in the entire manga, it was completely out of character (he's smeart to be smart, what happened to Namek-era Vegeta?). Possibly the most idiotic moment in all of Dragonball, way't go Vegeta.

Is it possible that his emotions came from his new power? Perhaps he couldn't fully control the USSJ form and that's what lead to his sort of out of character mentality.

rereboy wrote:
For example, you think its OK to kill 9 year old Hitler if you could do it?
.

FUCK YES!!!

I'm catholic and I'd wipe Hitler out point blank at age 9 for doing what he did.

FormallyKnownAsPrince · Post by **FormallyKnownAsPrince** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:17 pm

rereboy wrote:
FormallyKnownAsPrince wrote:
Of course... the whole saga could have been avoided had any one of them just killed Gero before he even created the androids. I have a hard time enjoying this arc because the logic is so flawed. The story just doesn't flow like the Saiyan and Namek arcs :/
You think its OK to kill someone just because of what they might do?

For example, you think its OK to kill 9 year old Hitler if you could do it?

Its not that simple (morally) to do.

eh... you make some very good points, but again, I think at the end of the day it's about the greater good. If one knew somebody was planning to do something horrible- something that would take many, many innocent lives (in Gero's case, potentially destroy the world)- you're saying it would be wrong to reprimand them simply because the act hadn't been committed yet? The intention is still there. Wouldn't it also be wrong, on some level, to just let something horrible like that happen, when you had the knowledge and ability to prevent it?

Besides, they wouldn't have to kill Gero to keep him from creating the androids... and who said he would be a nine-year-old kid?

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:30 pm

rereboy wrote:However, when he fought Cell, he honestly didn`t believe that Cell was going to surpass him once he reached his perfect state. He just wanted a better challenge. He acted just like Goku did when Freeza was powering up to 100%. He was just a little more cocky than Goku was. He wanted the challenge. However 100% Freeza didn`t surpass SSJ Goku. But perfect Cell surpassed USSJ Vegeta. Its that simple.

Very good point. It's a nice counter to the "Vegeta was a retard lulz" kind of stuff that's been flying around here lately.

B · Post by B » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:17 pm

rereboy wrote:
Rocketman wrote:
rereboy wrote:For example, you think its OK to kill 9 year old Hitler if you could do it?
To save sixty million lives? Yes.
You would still be killing someone who hadn`t done anything yet. An "innocent" life, sort of.

You would be doing it for the greater good, but its not that simple (morally) to do. Its still wrong. The lesser evil of the two situations.

Thats why if there was a chance of preventing those deaths any other way, even if it wasn`t as certain as killing the boy, many people would try that instead.

And thats what Goku did. He tried the alternative. Get ready for the cyborgs and try to stop them.

Except Goku is a barely-educated hick, and his way ended up with him, 16, and Trunks dead. Trying to apply it to a real world situation like being able to stop Hitler if you could doesn't work because A) we don't have Dragon Balls or old Gods willing to give their life force to us and B) the main appeal of Goku is that he's unconvential and unrealistic. Anyone with their head marginally screwed on right, i.e. not someone raised in the woods who fell down a steep gorge and slammed their head as a baby, would kill Lil' Adolf. And Gero.