Super 17 Questions

Ultimate_DB_Fan · Post by **Ultimate_DB_Fan** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:48 pm

I'm not really familiar with GT, other than hearing people speaking of it and/or why they didn't like it.

Anyway, I have a tape that I believe consists of the whole Super 17 arc of GT, but it's in very bad condition. To this day, I'm still confused about it all, so I was wondering if someone here could explain what it was all about. I know there's another guy or something who looks like Gero or some crap, but where was he from? Was that other 17 with the coat his creation, and if so, when did he create him? How was Super 17 logically strong enough to mess up Ssj4 Goku? If anyone can answer these for me, it'd be very awsome.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:02 pm

Dr Gero and some other evil scientist from GT met up in Hell, and worked together to make a new 17 there. Gero comments that the original 17 had a lot more potential that was never realized, and that by fusing with this 17, it will 'complete' him (kind of like Cell?) and make a new powerful Android.

The Hell 17 gets inside the old 17's head, and their two energies connecting cracks a hole between Earth and Hell. Something like 'the power of Hell' pours into 17 and supposedly powers him up, I think. Then the two 17s meet and fuse.

Since fusions always produce something stronger than the sum of its parts, I don't complain about 17 ending up strong enough to fight SSJ4 Goku. I'm more bothered by the other power inconsistencies, such as several Super Saiyans and Uub (fused with Buu) being unable to scratch Super 17, and then Goku, at just SSJ1, flies in and punches him so hard he ends up on the other side of the planet.

There's also the fact that, like in all Toei's filler, villains in Hell get to keep their bodies for some reason. Not only that, but by escaping through the portal to Earth, they're suddenly 'alive' again. If that's all it took to come back to life, Goku could do it just by using Shunkan Ido to travel to Earth from the afterlife. "I escaped, so I'm alive again now!"

How did they build a 17 in Hell? I don't know, but I think it's kind of cool actually. He's a machine built in the depths of Hell. Kind of creepy.

Post by **Herms** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:06 pm

The guy who looks like Gero is Doctor Mu. Mu was a machine mutant created by Baby to help him along in his development, and to create other machine mutants. Mu was ultimately killed by Baby, and met Gero in Hell, where hatched a plan to get revenge on Goku by completing No.17. According to Gero in GT, No.17 was originally intended to be far more powerful than even Cell, but because 17 killed Gero, Gero was unable to complete him. So Mu and Gero created another 17, called "Hell Fighter 17", using machine mutant technology. This Hell Fighter 17 was much stronger than the original, and was designed to bring out 17's dormant power by fusing with him. They two 17s fused after Hell Fighter 17 brainwashed the original 17, and the result was Super 17. The 17 with a coat was actually the original 17; he was first shown wearing that coat in the Boo arc. Hell Fighter 17 looked exactly as 17 did in the android arc, and Super 17 looked sort of like a SSJ3 version of 17. The reason Super 17 was so powerful was because he has access to 17's full, Cell-surpassing potential, and because he also had machine mutant technology (and of course because he was the next big enemy and had to be a match for SSJ4 Goku).

Ultimate_DB_Fan · Post by **Ultimate_DB_Fan** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:06 pm

I see...
I'm aware that many here hate the inconsistencies that are present in GT. When it comes to Super 17, though, was it convincing enough to some of you, as viewers, to buy the whole thing about 17 being strong enough to kick SSJ4 Goku's butt, and also, was it hard to process the "original" intention of Gero to make 17 stronger than Cell?

Post by **Herms** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:17 pm

I think Gero intending to make 17 stronger than Cell makes a certain sort of sense, since Cell was basically the creation of Gero's computer, so Gero may well have had his own plans for 17 (as has been brought up before, if Gero only intended 17 to serve as a power-up for Cell, why bother making him able to run away?). And while it's certainly convenient that Super 17 would be just powerful enough to be a big challange for SSJ4 Goku, but not so powerful that Goku couldn't beat him, at least it's the sort of convenient plotting we've already seen a zillion times before, so it's not bringing any fresh stupidity to the table. So overall I think the idea behind Super 17 himself was reasonably logical, if not very original. At the very least, it's small potatos compared to the numerous afterlife-related contradictions in that storyline.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:45 pm

Super 17 being that strong doesn't bother me at all. There are far bigger problems with the saga. In addition to what Herms said about the afterlife rules, there's also gross inconsistencies with the strengths of the characters. SSJ isn't enough to move Super 17, as 3 Super Saiyans try fighting him at once, but SSJ Goku can punch him around the planet. Also, how he loses, but I don't want to say in case you don't want spoilers.

Ultimate_DB_Fan · Post by **Ultimate_DB_Fan** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:03 pm

Go ahead. God knows when I'll be able to get my hands on both seasons of GT, so spoil away.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:14 pm

Well, it's not much of a spoiler, but it isn't even SSJ4 that beats him in the end. The power levels are just that inconsistent. One minute SSJ makes you god, the next SSJ4 isn't much different to base form. This is a problem present throughout GT, but it makes even less sense in the Super 17 saga.

Also, Goku spends a whole episode throwing ki blasts at Super 17, which he absorbs and gets stronger. Goku's meant to be smart when it comes to battle. Look at how he defeated Yakon. Yet he wastes all of his ki and stamina throwing blasts at Super 17 which he just absorbs.

Oh yeah, and then there's the fight between Freeza and Cell in Hell. He doesn't even go Super Saiyan and he still thrashes them. Not only that, he basically kills them and they don't die, because they're 'already dead'; even though in the Buu saga we find out that if you die when you're already dead, you're gone forever. He also rides one of Freeza's death disks like a surfboard and knocks away Cell's Kamehameha by twirling a stick.

Metalwario64 · Post by **Metalwario64** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:22 pm

Bussani wrote:Also, Goku spends a whole episode throwing ki blasts at Super 17, which he absorbs and gets stronger.

That reminds me of the scene in Z where Goku continuously fired blasts at Cell for roughly 10 minutes or so...

Right before he quit I believe.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:28 pm

Metalwario64 wrote:
Bussani wrote:Also, Goku spends a whole episode throwing ki blasts at Super 17, which he absorbs and gets stronger.
That reminds me of the scene in Z where Goku continuously fired blasts at Cell for roughly 10 minutes or so...

Right before he quit I believe.

At least Cell wasn't absorbing it and getting stronger. SSJ4 Goku, after realizing Super 17 was absorbing his attacks, thought it would be a good idea to fire the last of his ki in a x10 Kamehameha at him just to make sure. "Oh wow, it didn't work. Didn't see that coming. Guess I'm screwed."

Ultimate_DB_Fan · Post by **Ultimate_DB_Fan** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:09 am

After reading your guys' posts, I think I'm starting to see the flaws here, lol. So we not only have inconsistencies with power levels, but we also have inconsistencies with how the afterlife in Hell works, and Goku doing nothing but throwing ki blasts...

Travis Touchdown · Post by **Travis Touchdown** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:57 am

What I didn't understand the most was 17 being meant to be stronger than Cell. Gero designed Cell to be able to use 17 and 18 as batteries that trigger stronger transformations. Cell was always intended to be the Ultimate Android, so when the Super 17 arc rolls around, it's said that 17 was actually designed to be the Ultimate Android which more/less made the Cell saga pointless.

I didn't understand how they brainwashed Android 17. He's just magically working for them. The English dub talks about how they sent Android 17 back to Earth. Trunks even refers to him as "a resurrected 17." When did Android 17 die? I dunno what the Japanese dub says, so hopefully it makes more sense than that.

I didn't understand how SSJ4 Goku couldn't hurt Super 17, but his base form can punch through him. I understand that an attack can have a higher power than the user. Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon on Raditz showed us that. But we also see the HUGE difference between base and Super Saiyan, so the difference between base and Super Saiyan 4 should be astronomical, thus, no way a base Dragon Punch could equal anything near Super Saiyan 4.

I don't mind Goku not being a Super Saiyan to fight Frieza, but not being at least Super Saiyan 1 against Cell made me scratch my head. I don't know what the Japanese dub says, but I thought it was pretty dumb that Goku was surprised that Frieza could form an energy disc and accused him of copying Krillin. I'm sure the Japanese version is similar since Frieza's was gold like Krillin's instead of pink as it originally was.

While Goku was in Hell, I kept wondering why he didn't just turn Super Saiyan 4 and teleport out.

I dunno. I like GT, I enjoy GT. But the Super 17 arc is when the story collapses on itself and why I can only accept the Baby arc for my canon and Super 17 and beyond is taken as a DBZ movie like Lord Slug, or Fusion Reborn.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:10 am

Travis Touchdown wrote:What I didn't understand the most was 17 being meant to be stronger than Cell. Gero designed Cell to be able to use 17 and 18 as batteries that trigger stronger transformations. Cell was always intended to be the Ultimate Android, so when the Super 17 arc rolls around, it's said that 17 was actually designed to be the Ultimate Android which more/less made the Cell saga pointless.

Well, Gero started Cell early on. He probably didn't even know exactly how he would turn out, he just thought, "if I mix the DNA of all the best fighters in the world, it should make something strong." He then gave up and left it to the computer because it would take so long. It's also possible that it was the computer that calculated that absorbing 17 and 18 would help Cell become the strongest, rather than being something Gero planned on from the start.

In short, it's possible that Gero wasn't counting on the Cell project at all, and that 17, 18 and the other androids of the time were the direction he was going in. If so, 17 having a lot more potential makes some sense.

The English dub talks about how they sent Android 17 back to Earth. Trunks even refers to him as "a resurrected 17." When did Android 17 die? I dunno what the Japanese dub says, so hopefully it makes more sense than that.

17 originally died when Cell blew up with him in him, theoretically. Or when Gohan killed Cell. Who knows? But he was brought back to life by the wish to restore those who died because of Cell, as we see him in the Buu saga.

I didn't understand how SSJ4 Goku couldn't hurt Super 17, but his base form can punch through him. I understand that an attack can have a higher power than the user. Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon on Raditz showed us that. But we also see the HUGE difference between base and Super Saiyan, so the difference between base and Super Saiyan 4 should be astronomical, thus, no way a base Dragon Punch could equal anything near Super Saiyan 4.

Yep. Makes no sense.

I don't know what the Japanese dub says, but I thought it was pretty dumb that Goku was surprised that Freeza could form an energy disc and accused him of copying Krillin. I'm sure the Japanese version is similar since Freeza's was gold like Krillin's instead of pink as it originally was.

This too. Another random error. Even in the Japanese version Goku says something like, "oh yeah, Cell can copy people's techniques. And Freeza's using Kuririn's!"

While Goku was in Hell, I kept wondering why he didn't just turn Super Saiyan 4 and teleport out.

I did too. I think there might have been an explanation, but it was so vague and half assed I don't remember it. Even if there was, no one even suggested using Shunkan Ido.

Yamcha_krillin · Post by **Yamcha_krillin** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:23 pm

Bussani wrote:but SSJ Goku can punch him around the planet. Also, how he loses, but I don't want to say in case you don't want spoilers.

After SSJ Goku punched him Super 17 did say that he was just playing around and that he could see troughGoku's attacks easily and then beats that SSJ Goku easilly.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:24 pm

Yamcha_krillin wrote:
Bussani wrote:but SSJ Goku can punch him around the planet. Also, how he loses, but I don't want to say in case you don't want spoilers.
After SSJ Goku punched him Super 17 did say that he was just playing around and that he could see troughGoku's attacks easily and then beats that SSJ Goku easilly.

So he flew around the planet from his punch on purpose? Makes as much sense as anything else I guess.