Was The Buu Saga Really That Bad?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:11 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:But we're talking about American readers, so, y'know, dark is good.

A dark ending is better than a deus ex machina.

Innagadadavida · Post by **Innagadadavida** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:17 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Olivier Hague wrote:But we're talking about American readers, so, y'know, dark is good.
A dark ending is better than a deus ex machina.

It's a story meant to be entertaining. It's not some masterpiece of artistic genius. It's a comic that was continued for the sole purpose of putting more money in the pockets of the editors and author. I think a deus ex machina is perfectly fine as an ending. Buu saga was the most fun out of all of them who cares how it ended?

penguintruth · Post by **penguintruth** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:21 pm

Commander_Red wrote:Love it.

And Goku vs Kid Boo in the anime.... Beautiful.

I get annoyed when people say it all should have ended after Freeza.

If anything, if it was going to end earlier, it should have ended when Gohan defeated Cell, with him inheriting his father's role.

That's actually my biggest issue with the Buu Saga, Gohan being nerfed. Goku is always my favorite character, but it was supposed to be Gohan's time.

But like I said previously, there were plenty of likable elements, even though Toriyama was clearly pushing it.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:22 pm

Innagadadavida wrote:It's a story meant to be entertaining.

And the DEM is not entertaining. what's the fun in having a higher power step in and say "Alright, chaps, enough of this 'ere 'tension' bollocks! Here's a nice resolution all wrapped up for you."

Innagadadavida · Post by **Innagadadavida** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:28 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Innagadadavida wrote:It's a story meant to be entertaining.
And the DEM is not entertaining. what's the fun in having a higher power step in and say "Alright, chaps, enough of this 'ere 'tension' bollocks! Here's a nice resolution all wrapped up for you."

The fun is what happens up to that point.

Besides, we're talking about a series that began with "Why would I want to touch your dirty butt?" Does it really matter if it ends on a serious dramatic note or a "eh, fuck it" note?

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:34 pm

Rocketman wrote:A dark ending is better than a deus ex machina.

How's the series called again?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:44 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Rocketman wrote:A dark ending is better than a deus ex machina.
How's the series called again?

Ah, right. I forgot that rule where if somebody was weally, weally sad, the Dragonballs could bring them back long enough for a fix-everything wish.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:25 pm

I'm not even sure what you're talking about, here... I'm just saying dei ex machina abound in the series. And while I'm not exactly fond of them, they still belong a lot more than such a dark ending would.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:46 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:I'm not even sure what you're talking about, here... I'm just saying dei ex machina abound in the series. And while I'm not exactly fond of them, they still belong a lot more than such a dark ending would.

I think he's talking about Saichoro? (It took me a bit to figure that out.

).

... What makes a Deus Ex Machina, again?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:40 pm

caejones wrote: I think he's talking about Saichoro? (It took me a bit to figure that out. ).

... What makes a Deus Ex Machina, again?

A deus ex machina (pronounced day oos ayks mokinah, literally "god from the machine") is a plot device in which a person or thing appears "out of the blue" to help a character to overcome a seemingly insolvable difficulty. - The Wiki

MCDaveG · Post by **MCDaveG** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:33 am

Olivier Hague wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote:I've never understood why people think that the Freeza saga ending with everyone dead besides Gohan would be a good ending. That's terrible and would HAVE to be something that would be followed up on.
Well, yeah: it's a shônen manga. You don't end a story like that.
But we're talking about American readers, so, y'know, dark is good.

Yes, or horribly holywood-like stupid

jda95 · Post by **jda95** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:17 am

Rocketman wrote:
caejones wrote: I think he's talking about Saichoro? (It took me a bit to figure that out. ).

... What makes a Deus Ex Machina, again?
A deus ex machina (pronounced day oos ayks mokinah, literally "god from the machine") is a plot device in which a person or thing appears "out of the blue" to help a character to overcome a seemingly insolvable difficulty. - The Wiki

And it was all a dream.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:56 pm

My main problem with the Buu saga was that it was random and out of the blue, and it was pretty empty. All of the other Z sagas tied into each other or had something to do with the past. Like, I could understand why someone would consider the Saiyan and Frieza sagas one big arc, and The Android saga is like a sequel to the Red Ribbon saga. But then, out of nowhere, Buu comes. And it was lacking an overall storyline and Buu wasn't much of a villain. The entire last half of the Buu saga is essentially one big ass battle. Sure, Cell wasn't the best villain, but the Android saga actually had an interesting storyline.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:41 pm

I kinda agree with the above, but I also feel Toriyama had very few options left for a new villain, at that point. Freeza was the most powerful guy in the universe, Cell was a newborn with a good reason to be even more powerful... where do you go next? The ancient sealed evil, while quite reminiscent of Piccolo Daimaô, was one of the very few ways out, and going back to magic (while keeping the cosmic scale of the recent plotlines) wasn't such a bad idea either, in my opinion.

My problems would mainly be with Gokû being a jerk since Cell got his perfect body, the erratic plotline (comedic? serious? Gohan as Gokû's successor... or maybe not?), and Toriyama's last idea to keep the power inflation going on: the fusions (how can I root for those fused characters? they're powerful and cocky... then what? who are those guys? they're ciphers to me).

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:41 am

Olivier Hague wrote:I kinda agree with the above, but I also feel Toriyama had very few options left for a new villain, at that point. Freeza was the most powerful guy in the universe, Cell was a newborn with a good reason to be even more powerful... where do you go next? The ancient sealed evil, while quite reminiscent of Piccolo Daimaô, was one of the very few ways out, and going back to magic (while keeping the cosmic scale of the recent plotlines) wasn't such a bad idea either, in my opinion.

Agreed. It acts as a budokai sequel, a Satan sequel (eg: Cell Games), a Demon sequel, and a Kaio sequel.

My problems would mainly be with Gokû being a jerk since Cell got his perfect body, the erratic plotline (comedic? serious? Gohan as Gokû's successor... or maybe not?), and Toriyama's last idea to keep the power inflation going on: the fusions (how can I root for those fused characters? they're powerful and cocky... then what? who are those guys? they're ciphers to me).

I would have prefered if after Gotenks, Goku went to Earth with the potara to stall for time. Instead of "Ultimate Gohan," Gohan ends up becoming the true Legendary SSJ.

Deep Thought · Post by **Deep Thought** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:29 am

I've never agreed with Rocketman more in my life. I despise how the Dragon Balls fix everything, and I detest the Buu-Saga for being an incoherent piece of shit saga.

If it ended at the Freeza saga, where everyone but Gohan and Bulma died, it would've been sad as hell, but it would've had a point. Vegeta, Piccolo, Kurrin, and Goku died, but they died stopping a universal threat, someone who would've enslaved and destroyed several more races if he wasn't stopped. The message is that, sometimes, you need to put your life at serious risk to stop a greater threat. I'm aren't talking about risk your life to beat a 2nd Hitler, like some cheesy action movie. I'm talking about putting yourself between your loved ones and a murderer, and putting up the best fight you can, even if you could die.

The Cell Saga has a much weaker message, but it still has one. It shows the power being parental bonds, and, again, the power of sacrifice. Goku sacrificed himself to beat Cell, and his efforts were not in vain. It also shows that death isn't so bad, the Freeza saga ending would've kinda implied that, but here, you really feel it. Goku explicitly states that he thinks that the world will be a safer place without him, and that he doesn't mind death. Sure, Goku's gone, but he's happy. This is fitting, too, because there is no way for Goku to be revived, either, so it's not like he's being an asshole, for once.

The Buu Saga has no moral lesson, not one, and I'm really trying to think of one, but all I can think of is the bad things it shows. As Rocketman said, Goten, Trunks, and even Goku couldn't give less of a fuck that everyone is getting brutally murdered by Buu, they still play around with him a lot. The story constantly gives the message that death is horrible and that you should do everything to cheat it. It also has the "DRAGON BALLS WILL FIX EVERYTHING NOW LETS HAVE A PARTY" message.

The Cell Saga was convoluted, but it at least made sense. The Buu Saga was a game of mad libs.

At the beginning of the story, Goku and Chi-Chi had another offspring who looks exactly like their _______

(family member) -> father

This child is called ______, and Vegeta's son, Trunks, is his _____

(name) -> Goten

(relationship) -> rival

Goku is revived by ______ for a ______, during this time period, Goku will attend the World Tournament. _____, _____, _____, _____ and _____ will also attend.

(Z character who is tied to the afterlife) -> Baba

(time) -> day

(Z character, not Goku) -> Vegeta

(Z character, not Goku) -> Piccolo

(Z character, not Goku) -> Gohan

(Z character, not Goku) -> Cyborg 18

(Z character, not Goku) -> Kurrin

A_____ comes to the Tournament, and fights _______

(deity) -> super god

(Z character) -> Piccolo

_______ and _______ are also at the tournament, they are most likely evil, and they have _'s on their ________s

(name) -> Spopovitch.

(name) -> Yamu.

(letter or symbol) -> M

(body part) -> forehead

Later on, the ______, called Supreme Kai, lets _____ and ______ ______ Gohan's ________ with a thing-a-ma-fucker.

Aforementioned deity-> super god.

previous two names -> Spopovitch and Yamu.

verb - suck.

another word for energy - chi.

Supreme Kai tells everyone that those two men are _______'s _______, ________ is a _______ who lived for _______ years

(name) -> Babidi

(ranking) -> henchmen

(occupation) -> wizard

(number) - ten thousand

*skip*

Since Goku and Vegeta are fighting, its down to ______ and the ______ to fight the _______ called ______, however, they do not have enough time as the _____ ______, releasing _______, Gohan fires a ______ but it is no use. However, instead of the _____ releasing ______, it ______ _____. The ______ _______ into _______, who looks like a ______, _____ ______.

(Random Z character) -> Gohan.

(aforementioned deity) -> super god.

(creature) -> demon.

(name) - Dabura.

(noun) -> egg

(verb) -> opens

(random slur of letters, have fun) -> Majin Buu

(DBZ attack) - Kamehameha

(previous noun) -> egg

(previous random slur of letters) -> Majin Buu

(verb) - spews

(noun) -> smoke

(previous noun) -> smoke

(verb) -> forms

(previous random slur of letters) -> Majin Buu

(adjective) -> fat

(adjective) -> pink

(magical person) -> genie

*skip*

Goku, and eventually ______ teaches ______ and ______ to _______ by _______, creating _______.

(random Z character) -> Piccolo

(custom name used at beginning) -> Goten.

(random Z character) -> Trunks

(verb) -> fuse

(verb) -> dancing

(name) - Gotenks.

*skip*

Goku and Vegeta _______ into _______ by getting _______, they nearly beat _______, but they are _______ however, they form a _______. However they _______ due to _______ _______.

(verb) - combine

(name) -> Veggeto

(noun) -> earrings

(aforementioned name) -> Majin Buu

(verb) - absorbed

(form of protection) - barrier.

(opposite of first verb) -> de-fuse

(adjective) -> bad

(noun) -> gas.

Son Wukong · Post by **Son Wukong** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:27 pm

Rocketman wrote:The Buu Saga is bad for two reasons.

*lists two reasons*

Aren't those actually the reasons why we love the Buu saga? You know, when you're reading the manga and things like that happen you go ''Oh you silly Toriyama, fool me 232 times....''

Deep Thought wrote: Partial sentence (empty space), partial sentence.

(grammatical syntax)--->answer

New meme? Am I falling behind on the Internetz?

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:01 pm

I think he means to say it's about as predictable as an old mad-lib.

Cold Skin · Post by **Cold Skin** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:35 pm

No, the Boo saga wasn't bad. Maybe some of the fans don't like the big changes though, the overall situation being totally different: we have followed our characters year after year, even for the gap between Freezer and Cell, you could just imagine it happened three days later since the characters changed.

But there we have a seven-years gap, changing the looks of the characters, bringing new characters, setting the old ones on different lives (Gohan is a high school student, Vegeta can take his son to funfair, Krilin lives with 18 at Kame House...). It basically changes the usual team, the overall situation... I guess it's part of it.

Then we also have the "pushing it" too far feeling (that I never really felt, but apparently most fans did).

I do find some flaws in this saga, sharing one of the most spread opinions: Son Gohan was supposed to play a major role. He was actually supposed to take on the lead role given the message said by the narrator, and movie 9 proved he can have a lead role (some will argue that he's helped by his father, but he is the main character of the movie in any case). So I don't mind that Goku's back and take the lead role again, but I do think that Gohan should have kept his cool factor of the Cell Game era and have a bigger role in the story (speaking of which I would have prefered him to be the cool buddy, real incarnation of the Cell Game Gohan having grown up, that Toriyama has drawn when working on his look, see this on the main website of DAIZENSHUU EX). As some already said, even when he comes back full-power, his "hero-ness" just last for a few chapters, which fails to give him the power he's meant to have at that moment.

But there were tons of great ideas in that saga too: the fusions (both from the good and evil characters if you consider Boo's absorbing people as some kind of fusion), the absorbing-all monster (we had a monster that had some of the characters powers in his DNA, know we have a monster that can have ANY of the characters powers because he can absorb ANYONE), the Majin Vegeta events, making him classier than ever against Boo and giving him an honorable and emotional (though temporary) ending which I think has become a cult moment... Lots of humor too!

One point that can seem weird is how fast the situation goes from one thing to another, and easy solutions can be found sometimes, like being able to get out of the Room of Spirit and Time with a power scream. But it wasn't bad, nor do I consider it especially lower than the previous sagas at all, it just evolves and changes the spirit. The Genki Dama ending can surprise, seeming an easy solution at first, but I guess it is fair: people kinda saved themselves for the final battle, it was like ALL THE PEOPLE VS BOO in a final moment of showdown, Mr. Satan finds his usefullness as some kind of REAL hero who made a difference for once, Vegeta admits that Goku is N°1 though it does not mean he won't try to steal that N°1 place (see Kanzenban ending), etc...