Gohan and Kibito

smiley · Post by **smiley** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:52 am

Well, here's a quote from Daizenshuu 4, from Kibito's entry:

His Battle Power is considerably high, such that he gave Gohan a tough fight when he was not a Super Saiyan

What's up with that? Did they actually spar off-panel on Kaioshin's planet, or is this mistranslated?

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:38 am

I guess they are referring to Gohan thinking he had to go SSJ in order to beat him.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:40 am

Kibito asked him to do that straight off the bat. They've never fought, unless it was filler.

Post by **Herms** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:01 pm

Isn't that quote from Daizenshuu 7, not 4? Anyway, it might be referencing when Kaioshin and Kibito first appear, and Goku says something to the effect that they won't be able to easily win the tournament now that these guys have shown up.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:23 pm

They would've never had a chance to spar on Kaioshins planet, anyway--considering the entire focus was on the Z-sword. Since Kibito failed to even wield it for a half a second, Base Gohan would've tooled him with ease, as he's obviously weaker.

Kroni_Hunter · Post by **Kroni_Hunter** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:33 am

The Daizenshuu's aren't flawless gospels. This quote actually contradicts established evidence (such as Kibito's inability to lift the sword.)

Post by **Herms** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:44 am

Well, that's assuming arm strength and overall fighting ability are one and the same. Goku was pretty impressed with both Kaioshin and Kibito when they first appeared, and I don't see why he would be if Kibito were so drastically inferior to even Gohan's regular form. Kaioshin relies mostly on his physic powers to fight, so maybe Kibito's the same way.

Yamcha_krillin · Post by **Yamcha_krillin** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:47 am

That's another mistake in the Daizenshu and the Daizenshu has plenty of them.

Kibito is WEAK and weaker then base Gohan,shown with the Z sword.

Herms wrote:Well, that's assuming arm strength and overall fighting ability are one and the same. Goku was pretty impressed with both Kaioshin and Kibito when they first appeared, and I don't see why he would be if Kibito were so drastically inferior to even Gohan's regular form. Kaioshin relies mostly on his physic powers to fight, so maybe Kibito's the same way.

Goku only said that they should be carfull around them since he can't sense any energy coming from them.

Cold Skin · Post by **Cold Skin** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:27 pm

We have no proof Kaio Shin and Kibito are so strong, Goku just feels that they won't have any problem against regular earthling opponents. From the French tankobon (I always specify this so that: 1) you know that any weirdness in the way they speak is due to me translating the sentences and 2) people owning the English manga won't be surprised like "What?! He doesn't say that this way in the manga I bought!")

VOLUME 37: THE OFFENSIVE PLAN HAS BEGUN
CHAPTER 437: TWO MYSTERIOUS PEOPLE

PICCOLO: "Who... Who were they, Goku?"

GOKU: "I don't know... One thing's clear though: we thought we were gonna be the only ones to win easily our matches, well not anymore..."

KRILIN: "You think, really? They didn't look that strong... Thought he was just a punk wandering around."

Post by **Herms** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:29 pm

Gohan also says when he's about to begin the match with Kibito that even though Bulma told him to hide his true power so as not to cause a commotion, Kibito doesn't seem to be the sort of opponent he can beat while still disguising his power like this.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:44 pm

So basically, Toriyama's REALLY inconsistent in this arc.

Post by **Herms** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:43 pm

It's only inconsistent if you assume that because Kibito can't lift as much as Gohan can, then there's no way he could be a challange for Gohan in a fight. But that's not true in real martial arts, and there's nothing to say that's the case in the DB world either.

Cold Skin · Post by **Cold Skin** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:54 pm

Herms wrote:Gohan also says when he's about to begin the match with Kibito that even though Bulma told him to hide his true power so as not to cause a commotion, Kibito doesn't seem to be the sort of opponent he can beat while still disguising his power like this.

It's true, I forgot about that, nice! I guess given how Kibito is depicted as quite weak afterwards, maybe it is just an impression Gohan has. He looks at him and it's what he sees that makes him think that line, the expression on Kibito's face. He might just feel that guy is "something superior" and conclude that it would be too risky not to go full-force mode, despite not being able to sense his actual power. However, it's just a guess, this point can be debated I suppose.

The specific moment from the French tankobon:

VOLUME 37: THE OFFENSIVE PLAN HAS BEGUN
CHAPTER 443: THE OFFENSIVE PLAN HAS BEGUN

GOHAN: "The situation's not turning good... If I show my real power, it's gonna cause a scandal and I won't be able to get back to school... That's what Bulma said... That's why I disguised myself in the first place... [LOOKS AT KIBITO'S FACE] Oooh... It doesn't look like I can beat that guy without using all of my power..."

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:27 pm

That's a good point that I overlooked. Perhaps Herms is right, in that his arm strength has no full relevance on his battle ability. I guess it depends on how you take Kaioshin's quote about Goku being able to beat him at the Budokai, if he's referring to his Base form only. He seemed to be surprise at their ability to transform, aside from Gohan's, so he might not have known Goku had Super Saiyan.

I mean, Vegeta did claim the only reason why Kibito was blown away was because he was incompetent or along those lines. That in itself implies Vegeta thought Kibito was powerful enough to either put up a defense to Dabra's blast, or had the speed to somehow dodge it. Either way, it's some sort of reference to power, I think.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:59 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:I guess it depends on how you take Kaioshin's quote about Goku being able to beat him at the Budokai...

What is the quote?

Post by **Herms** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:27 pm

When Kaioshin first meets Goku and co., he says that he wishes to fight with Goku, but doesn't think he can win.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:39 pm

Interesting... doesn't Kaioshin know Goku and co. can go SSJ or he only knew about Gohan?

Post by **Herms** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:41 pm

I guess I wasn't clear: Kaioshin says that he doesn't think he can win against Goku.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:42 pm

Herms wrote:I guess I wasn't clear: Kaioshin says that he doesn't think he can win against Goku.

You was clear. I was just wondering if Kaioshin took the fact Goku could go SSJ or not or if he didn't even know Goku could go SSJ.

TheNamek · Post by **TheNamek** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:19 pm

Not sure if this was in the Manga; but in the Anime Kibitokai was going to go heal Goku but the Old kai said he did not have enough power to do that.

At the tournament Kibito himself healed Gohan; So I guess Kibito DOEs have a lot of power in him.

But that also leads to why Kibitokai wasn't strong enough to heal Goku; although it would be a plot hole.