Is Dragonball deeper than it looks?

[Bussani]

Actually it wouldn't take me too long to explain, but its wayyy off topic. I'd have to go into a lot of non-DB related stuff (One Piece isn't even fully DB-related to being with lol) and that is against the rules I believe, so I won't.

I'd say it's on topic if we're comparing Dragon Ball's depth to One Piece's. If you're essentially saying, "Dragon Ball isn't deep like One Piece," then I think an explanation would be okay.

[Dayspring]

Dragonball: Through hard work and determination, even the most idiotic weakling and coward can become the stuff of greatness.

Unless you're not the designated hero, in which case it doesn't matter how hard you work, it will all be made meaningless by people who got shit for free.

I strongly disagree. They all made the super elite of their respective races and fields look like ants.

As for Goku being favored because he's the hero, of course:
1) It's a story, so it has to be the hero who accomplishes this the most.
2) Who else in the story worked as hard as Goku to reach Goku's personal goal?

[Rocketman]

2) Who else in the story worked as hard as Goku to reach Goku's personal goal?

Vegeta. Goku says Vegeta worked even harder than he did.

[Piccolo Daimao]

2) Who else in the story worked as hard as Goku to reach Goku's personal goal?

Vegeta. Goku says Vegeta worked even harder than he did.

Yeah, Vegeta has always worked harder than Goku. It's just a bullshit plot-device to make Goku the hero again, just like a lot of fiction. Vegeta says Goku is "gifted" - how? The only one who is especially gifted is Gohan. Goku's only "gifted" because he gets power boosts ahead of someone who's probably the most motivated and determined character in the series in terms of training.

[JulieYBM]

I think Vegeta means that Gokû's gift is his ability to improve and excel in battle. After all, it was the realization in the 'Number One' speech that finally quashed Vegeta's ambition to defeat Gokû to be the best in the universe, because no matter how hard he tried Gokû would always remain unwavering on the Path to the Ultimate Power of surpassing oneself.

[Dayspring]

2) Who else in the story worked as hard as Goku to reach Goku's personal goal?

Vegeta. Goku says Vegeta worked even harder than he did.

Vegeta's goal was to be #1. At the end, Vegeta acknowledges that they have different motivations.

[Bussani]

It's just a bullshit plot-device to make Goku the hero again, just like a lot of fiction. Vegeta says Goku is "gifted" - how? The only one who is especially gifted is Gohan. Goku's only "gifted" because he gets power boosts ahead of someone who's probably the most motivated and determined character in the series in terms of training.

Goku's a genius when it comes to training, for a start. Their methods are different. It's not as simple as just putting in more time or effort, the method matters a lot. I think the Room of Spirit and Time is the best example. Vegeta broke the Super Saiyan wall in just a couple of months, but stayed the full year working on it. Goku breaks the Super Saiyan wall rather quickly himself, but instantly dismisses it and takes a different approach.

Like YBM says, Vegeta's speech spells it out. Their motives are different. Goku purely progresses simply to better and challenge himself. I like to think that once Vegeta stopped trying to outdo him, he would improve a lot himself, like his obsession was actually hindering him more than it was helping. Kind of like how Freeza's men can't sense ki because they only think of it as 'fighting power'.

[JulieYBM]

It's just a bullshit plot-device to make Goku the hero again, just like a lot of fiction. Vegeta says Goku is "gifted" - how? The only one who is especially gifted is Gohan. Goku's only "gifted" because he gets power boosts ahead of someone who's probably the most motivated and determined character in the series in terms of training.

Goku's a genius when it comes to training, for a start. Their methods are different. It's not as simple as just putting in more time or effort, the method matters a lot. I think the Room of Spirit and Time is the best example. Vegeta broke the Super Saiyan wall in just a couple of months, but stayed the full year working on it. Goku breaks the Super Saiyan wall rather quickly himself, but instantly dismisses it and takes a different approach.

Like YBM says, Vegeta's speech spells it out. Their motives are different. Goku purely progresses simply to better and challenge himself. I like to think that once Vegeta stopped trying to outdo him, he would improve a lot himself, like his obsession was actually hindering him more than it was helping. Kind of like how Freeza's men can't sense ki because they only think of it as 'fighting power'.

Yeah, my feelings are that after the speech he would pretty much begin to match right up with Gokû, or be on his level. I'd like to see Vegeta's official awakening as a Super Saiyan 3 be due to this discovery, but alas, that'd be too epic...

[Deep Thought]

I would replace Piccolo with Vegeta. Piccolo was magically less evil from his birth (and then becomes a good guy by kidnapping/abandoning/starving/abusing a small child?). Vegeta's a selfish prick who'd happily kill everybody else if he could up to the Cell Games.

Tenshinhan had the worst example of that, though.

Thing is, though, Vegeta doesn't really change. He still acts like a total asshole and he still has a fetish with anything related to Goku. I mean, seriously, his desire to actually fight Goku got annoying by the Buu Saga. Grow up.

He acts a little softer, but its only a mild variation on his character at best.

EDIT: For Kurrin,. I already went into the whole "Goku instantly softening bad or un-pure is shallow and bullshity" thing. Once when Kurrin is softened (by the time Goku and Kurrin are training together), he basically stays that way all through Dragon Ball and DBZ.

Yeah, I can't really agree here. I think it's pretty undeniable that Gohan and Krillin get some development, unless you think Gohan's exactly the same as a four year old toddler as he is when he's a married 26 year old father, or the bratty, sneaky, cynical 12 year old Krillin's the exact same as his much more innocent and selfless adult version.

Actually, Gohan gets, like, two speaking lines at the end of Z, so I really can't judge.

However, teen Gohan from the Buu Saga is almost exactly like Gohan from the Sayajin and Namek arcs. A shy, but nice person who doesn't think much of fighting (compared to the gang, anyway), who has an extreme trigger point when it comes to anger. I really don't see the difference.

[Dr. Casey]

Actually, Gohan gets, like, two speaking lines at the end of Z, so I really can't judge.

However, teen Gohan from the Buu Saga is almost exactly like Gohan from the Sayajin and Namek arcs. A shy, but nice person who doesn't think much of fighting (compared to the gang, anyway), who has an extreme trigger point when it comes to anger. I really don't see the difference.

So I take it you're arguing that Gohan doesn't develop much past the age of five? Because if you include four year old Gohan from the Radditz segment, then there's really no question that he develops. I don't see sixteen year old Gohan trying to strike up earnest conversations with forest animals.

And... yeah, I can partially agree with you. Gohan's basic personality's the same at five as it is at sixteen, and most lines of dialogue from Kid Gohan could be attributed to his self from eleven years in the future because he's far more articulate and well-spoken than your average toddler (As opposed to four year old Gohan, who does have a very realistic four year old innocence and vapidity). I guess Toriyama didn't want to expend the effort to continue writing Gohan to scale and so upgraded him to an essentially adult vocabulary/syntax.

As for the changes/development that I see, there's a few things.

- Gohan's an older brother, and with that comes the demonstration of traits that weren't seen (Or didn't exist) before. He's harsh and stern with Goten a couple of times, and I think that showing a disciplinarian/crotchety side is always a sign that you're getting older or maturing. It's not a trait kids really have much need to display or possess being on the bottom rungs of society, particularly since they're the ones engaging in silly nonsense rather than trying to prevent it. And that was poorly explained, but oh well.

- Teenage vanity with Gohan getting pissed over his classmates getting The Great Saiyaman's name wrong. Cell Saga Gohan would have done no such thing, he was too simple.

- Gohan treats the adults of the Dragon gang (Bulma, Kuririn, etc) more as equals than he did during the Cell Saga, and gets the same treatment in return. Sure, that's not an all-encompassing change to his character, but it does change the way he comes across (At least to me), and watching his developing relationships with everyone keeps his character fresh.

- His anger's toned down from what it used to be. Gohan was so uninvolved during most of Cell that I can't draw many examples of his 9 year old behavior, but I can't imagine him freaking out like he did up on Kami's Lookout during Cell, whenever Piccolo... uh... I forget what happened to Piccolo, actually, but yeah. If something happened to Piccolo during the Buu arc, I think his response would be closer to the relatively stoic one Goku had back then. Nor could I picture his sixteen year old self screwing up as badly as he did with Cell. Overall, I think Gohan's temperament is just a lot more stable as a sixteen year old. Hell, I think it was already starting to calm down by the Cell Games - Cell sure did have a harder time enraging Gohan than Radditz did.

Yeah, I guess your perception of his development depends on how much you care about smaller changes like that. I do have to wonder why Gohan's an example of poor development simply because he remains kind and shy throughout the series, though. Those are some extremely fundamental personality traits; most people do maintain most of their basic personality their whole lives.

... well, to be honest, I'm not sure that Gohan should be amongst the numbers of 'most people.' The whole deal with Cell should have been more traumatic than it actually was. Gohan's whole recovery and blazing resolve within a day rung incredibly false to me; the only part of the Cell Games aftermath in regards to Gohan that seemed genuine was his breakdown afterwards. I know that angst isn't Dragon Ball's thing, but the end of Cell did push the Bullshit-ometer to its limits. "Daddy died seventeen minutes ago, but oh well! I've gotta be the best I can be!" So yeah, I guess that maintaining his basic personality in its entirety could be a fault in this particular instance, but I don't see the problem with, say, Tenshinhan's personality remaining consistent. There's no need for his stoic nature to change no matter how his inner workings do.

I kinda lost my point somewhere, but in any case, I think Gohan does fine in the development department.

[Velasa]

I have to say, I barely understand most of the posts here. Is Dragonball the most complex thing ever? Absolutely not. But for almost everyone here to sit here and say it has absolutely no depth at all? What the hell people, are we watching the same show?

There are plenty of simple parts to it, like the fight strong guy, win, fight next strong guy thing. This is a kid's shounen series, of course that's there. Friendship, battles, ect ect. Some characters get the short end of the stick in their development, but there is -something- to them o_O Some characters have a lot of development. There are a lot of stories hidden in the main story, some easier to find than others, and at least some deal of meaning in what happens. There are points when Toriyama was obviously tired of the story and just started tossing material at the page to get it done with but seriously people. Saying there's absolutely nothing to it and that it's just completely shallow is bullshit.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Dragon Ball is not complex, but it is deep to an extent. There is character development between the characters, for example Goku, Piccolo and Vegeta, and there are interesting backstories like Vegeta basically being a slave to Freeza and it was that which made him resent his ruler, the same person who destroyed his entire race. And Vegeta was more angry about being pushed around by Freeza than his entire race being destroyed. And Piccolo. The fact that his evil nature became softer due to his friendship with Gohan...you're telling me that's not even the slightiest bit deep? Then there's the characters' motives as well.

Look, I'm not saying that Dragon Ball is as deep as something like, I dunno, "The Matrix". But it's not some kiddy "Fairly Odd Parents" or "Spongebob Squarepants" type thing.